Author Topic: E10 petrol is so not economical it seems  (Read 4258 times)

mj1sjc

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E10 petrol is so not economical it seems
« on: February 13, 2022, 10:23:48 PM »
Ive monitored the consumption of the full tank with E10 recently and it only gave me 275miles. Ive also added half a bottle of Radex too hoping I would get bit more miles.
With E5, I vaguely remember it was giving me around 350 miles. Are you guys also suffering with tge same due to this new E10?

Ive had all x8 spark plugs changed, rear x4 coils changed, full service was done, CVT oil changed, that little metal unit in the engine bay ( carburetor or something) got cleaned. All these were done 6 months ago. My current mileage is arond 87k. Ive got the original CAT and new mid- rear exhaust was done.

Is there anything else you could think to get the car more economical with the E10 please? I don't think E5 is available anywhere in or around Watford.

Jocko

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Re: E10 petrol is so not economical it seems
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2022, 10:51:46 PM »
I haven't noticed any real difference between E5 and E10. I did a top-up today at about 3/4 tank and 295 miles. My mpg is down from where it was when I was doing regular long journeys but as more than half of that mileage was city driving I was happy with the 48.6 mpg I recorded today.
After a longish trip check if any of your wheels are hot. You may have a brake sticking.

embee

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Re: E10 petrol is so not economical it seems
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2022, 01:44:01 AM »
Pump the tyres up, gentle on the throttle, walk more.

WelshBeauty

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Re: E10 petrol is so not economical it seems
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2022, 02:39:59 AM »
Does anyone know if there is any discernible difference in efficiency between E5 and E10?
E5 is of course more expensive being a premium unleaded.

Kremmen

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Re: E10 petrol is so not economical it seems
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2022, 05:03:19 AM »
I was considering the odd tank of E5 but the MK4 is a different animal. The engine is under less strain as it's mainly just ticking over to charge the battery pack.
Let's be careful out there !

aphybrid

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Re: E10 petrol is so not economical it seems
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2022, 06:59:17 AM »
Check rear brakes binding, happened with one of my cars after a service.

Lord Voltermore

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Re: E10 petrol is so not economical it seems
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2022, 07:31:42 AM »
E10 does give slightly lower mpg than E5  but only about 1.6 %  , Ie about 5 fewer miles on a tankful .

This is because ethanol  produces   about 33% fewer calories   by volume than petrol.  Thus with 10% ethanol its 3.3% less 'explosive ' than 100% petrol  (only available as expensive premium fuel)  , but only 1.6 % less than E5  which already contains 5% ethanol.   So yes it uses more fuel, but probably not enough to justify buying more expensive E5 or ethanol free alternatives  , or adding additives.

I would suggest that your remembered  350 miles per tank was in the balmy days of summer.    If you are only now measuring it, bear in mind its now  winter.    Fuel consumption can be  significantly higher in winter,
 Cold starts mean the engine needs a petrol rich air/fuel mixture for longer until the car warms up. The engine oil is thicker til it warms up.  Cold air is more dense than warm air, so the car has to work harder to push its way  through wind resistance.   Tyre pressures go down in cold weather, and this can make a big difference to rolling resistance and thus fuel consumption.   In winter you may doing  more of your  mileage in shorter journeys  on a cold engine.

Winter fuel consumption increase is much discussed on the mk 4 forum because the cars have an impressive array of fuel monitors. You notice the mpg drop immediately.    But the affects of winter also happen to earlier cars with conventional mechanicals.   
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culzean

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Re: E10 petrol is so not economical it seems
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2022, 08:24:18 AM »
High octane fuel also contains less of the stuff that goes 'bang' - the additives to make it less likely to pre-ignite ( knock or ping ) under pressure and heat are by their nature not combustable - in a normal port injected engine the additives allow the ignition to produce a spark earlier in the compression stroke ( advance the ignition ) and more fully burn what is there...  With Direct injection engines the fuel is not added until air is already compressed, so they can use higher CR ( 16:1 + ) without knocking.  Ethanol is actually an octane modifier as well as 'cooling' the burn to reduce NOx emissions ( which is also why the EGR valve if fitted to allow exhaust gas back into combustion chamber at higher revs )..   

https://mnbiofuels.org/media-mba/blog/item/1511-octane-and-ethanol-for-beginners
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 08:36:39 AM by culzean »
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nowster

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Re: E10 petrol is so not economical it seems
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2022, 12:20:12 PM »
https://mnbiofuels.org/media-mba/blog/item/1511-octane-and-ethanol-for-beginners

Hardly the most disinterested (unbiased) source there. That's an association of bioethanol producers. The Mandy Rice-Davis quote applies.  ;D

Also the octane numbers are the US's AKI, not the RON we use over here.

In my Mk2, I used to get significantly lower MPG in winter than in summer: colder engine, more use of lights and wipers, more use of the heaters, more likely to get increased rolling resistance from wet roads.

culzean

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Re: E10 petrol is so not economical it seems
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2022, 01:02:44 PM »
https://mnbiofuels.org/media-mba/blog/item/1511-octane-and-ethanol-for-beginners

Hardly the most disinterested (unbiased) source there. That's an association of bioethanol producers. The Mandy Rice-Davis quote applies.  ;D

Also the octane numbers are the US's AKI, not the RON we use over here.

In my Mk2, I used to get significantly lower MPG in winter than in summer: colder engine, more use of lights and wipers, more use of the heaters, more likely to get increased rolling resistance from wet roads.

Octane is merely a measure of the 'explosivity' of a fuel,  how easily it can be ignited, especially by pure compression - and its resistance to pre-ignition ( igniting early in the piston stroke - which tries to push the piston back the way it came up, rather than push it over TDC and efficiently push piston back down again the way it was already going ). The higher the Anti-knock index ( AKI ) the higher the octane ( RON ) number, it is just that the octane rating looks lower in USA because the difference in measuring it results in a lower number.   AKI and RON are different sides of the same coin. just like comparing MPH with KPH. 

I know the corn lobby have a vested interest in Ethnanol, as I have said in previous posts on this site, but Ethanol does improve Octane ( or AKI ) number of petrol ( or Gasoline ).. if you raise the AKI number you also raise the RON ( research octane number ).  Ethanol has 30% less energy by volume than petrol - which explains the lower MPG,  but the main reason to add ethanol is that it cools the combustion and results in lower NOx emissions, that fact that it also improves octane is a side-effect. 
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

madasafish

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Re: E10 petrol is so not economical it seems
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2022, 01:07:51 PM »
My fuel consumption averages.
Over 12 months 42.5mpg Over 9 years 42.7mpg
In summer: 44.5mpg.
In winter c 38mpg.

I drive more miles in summer with longer journeys  and therefore more efficient fuel usage  than winter.

Overall 75% of my travelling is urban

mj1sjc

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Re: E10 petrol is so not economical it seems
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2022, 01:35:22 PM »
Yes, my comparison memory is from the summer time.
Good idea, i need to check the tyre pressure too. Thanks!

E10 does give slightly lower mpg than E5  but only about 1.6 %  , Ie about 5 fewer miles on a tankful .

This is because ethanol  produces   about 33% fewer calories   by volume than petrol.  Thus with 10% ethanol its 3.3% less 'explosive ' than 100% petrol  (only available as expensive premium fuel)  , but only 1.6 % less than E5  which already contains 5% ethanol.   So yes it uses more fuel, but probably not enough to justify buying more expensive E5 or ethanol free alternatives  , or adding additives.

I would suggest that your remembered  350 miles per tank was in the balmy days of summer.    If you are only now measuring it, bear in mind its now  winter.    Fuel consumption can be  significantly higher in winter,
 Cold starts mean the engine needs a petrol rich air/fuel mixture for longer until the car warms up. The engine oil is thicker til it warms up.  Cold air is more dense than warm air, so the car has to work harder to push its way  through wind resistance.   Tyre pressures go down in cold weather, and this can make a big difference to rolling resistance and thus fuel consumption.   In winter you may doing  more of your  mileage in shorter journeys  on a cold engine.

Winter fuel consumption increase is much discussed on the mk 4 forum because the cars have an impressive array of fuel monitors. You notice the mpg drop immediately.    But the affects of winter also happen to earlier cars with conventional mechanicals.

mj1sjc

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Re: E10 petrol is so not economical it seems
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2022, 01:38:34 PM »
This is too technical English for me. Lol
So, are you saying not to use Redex with E10 and then the mileage will increase?

High octane fuel also contains less of the stuff that goes 'bang' - the additives to make it less likely to pre-ignite ( knock or ping ) under pressure and heat are by their nature not combustable - in a normal port injected engine the additives allow the ignition to produce a spark earlier in the compression stroke ( advance the ignition ) and more fully burn what is there...  With Direct injection engines the fuel is not added until air is already compressed, so they can use higher CR ( 16:1 + ) without knocking.  Ethanol is actually an octane modifier as well as 'cooling' the burn to reduce NOx emissions ( which is also why the EGR valve if fitted to allow exhaust gas back into combustion chamber at higher revs )..   

https://mnbiofuels.org/media-mba/blog/item/1511-octane-and-ethanol-for-beginners

culzean

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Re: E10 petrol is so not economical it seems
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2022, 01:45:27 PM »
This is too technical English for me. Lol
So, are you saying not to use Redex with E10 and then the mileage will increase?

I do not use redex all the time anyway,  just about 4 times a year I will add some to fuel to clean up the system a bit.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

olduser1

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Re: E10 petrol is so not economical it seems
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2022, 06:14:11 PM »
Was your air filter also changed, if not worthwhile.
Also check the cabin filter behind the passenger glove box - I use BluePrint filters on customer cars, it won't give better mpg but will improve the air quality inside your Jazz.

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