Juddering under load - fuel filter?

[Bobochops]

53 plate i-DSi sport owner here, 40k trouble free miles over the last 3 years since I bought her. Stupidly ran out of fuel  a couple of months ago, but had no issues after a walk in the dark to a garage for some petrol. Last week I filled up at a known, but little used, local garage and the next morning the car started to judder under load - almost like it wants to stall but kicks in again repeatedly. Thinking it was a batch of dodgy fuel I tried some 99 octane which really seemed to help for a short while but now it’s worse than ever. Any acceleration causes the juddering and the yellow check engine light has started to flash repeatedly during these episodes. If I drive like miss daisy all is well. I have a generic scanner, which may help find a fault code but in the meantime, has anybody experienced this and could it be more sinister than a clogged up fuel filter?

Many thanks 

[UKjim]

Sounds like it may have ingested some rubbish from the bottom of the tank when you ran out of juice.


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[MicktheMonster]

Sounds like symptoms of a blocked or partially blocked fuel filter, probably caused by sucking up filth from the bottom of the tank as Jim has suggested or possibly from contaminated new fuel.
Could also be that your fuel filter is just in need of replacement and unrelated to your breakdown. I had a similar thing with a diesel vectra which, after a refill, started stuttering in the manner you have described, garage found the fuel filter to be clogged with black slime, impossible to tell if it came in the new diesel or if it was in the bottom of my tank and the new fuel simply carried it to the filter.
The Mk1 jazz fuel filter is a long life item, most people don't change it unless it goes wrong but there are many reports of some clogging up around about 80-100,000 miles.

[Bobochops]

Sounds like symptoms of a blocked or partially blocked fuel filter, probably caused by sucking up filth from the bottom of the tank as Jim has suggested or possibly from contaminated new fuel.
Could also be that your fuel filter is just in need of replacement and unrelated to your breakdown. I had a similar thing with a diesel vectra which, after a refill, started stuttering in the manner you have described, garage found the fuel filter to be clogged with black slime, impossible to tell if it came in the new diesel or if it was in the bottom of my tank and the new fuel simply carried it to the filter.
The Mk1 jazz fuel filter is a long life item, most people don't change it unless it goes wrong but there are many reports of some clogging up around about 80-100,000 miles.

Car is on 112k now and I bet it’s original fuel filter so will get it sorted. Looks a little tricky removing the centre console for access - anybody had a go at this job?

[embee]

See what the fault codes say first, it's what OBD is there for, takes a lot of guess work out of it.
I'd suspect ignition side, but that's just a suspicion, could be fuel.

[culzean]

The fuel filter is big, not like the small in-line ones that used to be fitted and needed changing every so often.  I would suspect the rear four plugs - which nobody, not even Honda dealers ever seem to replace,  the MK1 IDSI has 8 plugs...  If it was fuel filter it is logical to think the problem would happen at higher revs and speeds when fuel demand is highest...

Plugs are your cheapest option to try ( plenty of threads on forum about plugs and where to buy them, how to change them ) - after that maybe rear coils ( when the plugs have done excess miles the large gap stresses coil insulation and can cause coil failure ) also plenty of threads about coils on here,  the rear and front coils are not the same....

[culzean]

Sounds like it may have ingested some rubbish from the bottom of the tank when you ran out of juice.

The position of fuel pickup in tank does not alter depending on amount of fuel in there, it is already at lowest point in tank..... any water would have been at lowest point anyway as it is more dense than petrol...

40,000 miles is nothing for a fuel filter,  buy a 500ml bottle of redex fuel system / injector cleaner - tip the whole lot in tank next time you fill up and run car for a few days...

[Bobochops]

Had my Jazz booked in today for diagnostic scan but turned up to find the mechanic was going home due to illness and I wont get back in until well into next week. So, using my cheap OBD II scanner I kept getting “no faults stored”. Frustrated by this I took the car for a run and despite juddering the whole way every time I accelerated, no MIL. Just as I pulled up at home the yellow engine MIL flashed and I immediately hit the DTC key on the scanner. 

Finally, “P0302 Cylinder 2 Misfire” flashed up. So, would this suggest more a spark plug issue rather than a blocked fuel filter, or could it even be a clogged EGR valve? I always drive in an - ahem - spirited manner, but lately, due to petrol costs, I’ve been driving extremely carefully for extra mpg.

I’ve learned that the spark plugs are copper core on the i-DSi, so will not last as long as the iridium tipped plugs on the mk 2 jazz and I doubt they have been changed in the last 5 years/50k miles at least. Is an egr clean a diy possibility?

Many thanks for any help again.

[degzi]

Standard spark plugs not changed or gapped in 5yr 

Definitely change them first. I find they need cleaned and regapped every year for Decent running.

[Jocko]

I am considering doing an EGR clean on my DSi. Plug off, remove a couple of nuts and it lifts off. A good spray with Carb cleaner is supposed to do the job then refit with a new gasket.
Plugs definitely need to be changed. The back four could have been in there even longer than the front ones. many owners and even mechanics don't know there is a rear set.

[Bobochops]

Standard spark plugs not changed or gapped in 5yr 

Definitely change them first. I find they need cleaned and regapped every year for Decent running.

As I happened to be right outside today, got a quote from Halfrauds to change plugs - £130. Deciding to decline this generous offer, I proceeded to attempt the task myself. Having less than an hours light and no garage, I decided against doing the tricky back 4 and opted for the easy front 4. I used some poly tubing to start the new plugs off and apart from a dropped coil pack screw, which needed several fishing attempts to retrieve, job done. Took her for a test drive not expected too much as the back 4 had not been touched, but to my surprise, no juddering and ran very well.

Feeling very pleased with myself I sat down to inspect the old plugs and give a scathing attack on the Halfrauds cowboy’s to the missus. Half way through my rant I realised one of the old crush washers was missing!  It seems I failed to spot it was stuck in the block and worse I have used another new washer on top. Could anybody advise of possible engine damage if I drive for any length of time like this - it will be simple to pull the plugs and see which is the affected one, maybe not so easy to remove the old washer. Also, will I need new spark plugs after removal as I torqued all 4 to 18nm and did not use thread grease?

Thank you to everyone- as already stated, if you have juddering under load check your plugs or just replace them as the first option.

[embee]

I would advise against driving with a possible double washer arrangement, but the risk is quite small. Not much of the heat flow goes through the washer area, most is through the threads, so plug temperature will be fine. It'll probably be reasonably well sealed for gas leaks.
Sort it as soon as you can realistically. I suggest a long piece of stiff wire (coat-hanger type stuff) with a small 90deg bend on the end to fish the washers out if they don't come out with the plug. Make sure the wire is longer than the total distance down the plug recess plus the distance down to the piston at bottom of stroke just to be sure it can't possibly get dropped in and lost, plus a big 90deg bend at the top to be sure to be sure.

I always blow out the plug bores with a compressed air gun before ever starting to remove plugs to get any dirt/grit out (use eye protection), and another quick burst just before the plug reaches the end of the thread coming out in case anything has been loosened round the washer. Grit dropped into the cylinder is never good news.

[degzi]

Nowadays I always just loosen the sparkplug and drop a rag over the top, then just crank the engine. It pops the plug up the hole and blows out any crap in there.

That gap looks huuuuge no wonder it didn't run right, although it does look like it's burning fuel right etc.

[Bobochops]

Nowadays I always just loosen the sparkplug and drop a rag over the top, then just crank the engine. It pops the plug up the hole and blows out any crap in there.

That gap looks huuuuge no wonder it didn't run right, although it does look like it's burning fuel right etc.

Yes I was shocked how big the gap was, amazing little car to still run in that condition. Now for the tricky back 4…….