Author Topic: Auto stop and battery indicator  (Read 40427 times)

HondaJazzmike34

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #75 on: October 18, 2019, 05:48:40 PM »
The site is full of the problems with the Idle Stop on a Mk3 2015 Jazz 1.3 most posts of which I have read.  Seems the consensus is that all the interior control (heaters etc) should be off etc.etc. But I have a funny one. We bought the car in April 2019 from a main dealer, and all was well with the Idle Stop. We could switch it on and off at will getting the correct symbology. THEN in early October 2019 I came to the car one morning to find everything dead as a dodo. Checked the battery at just 4.5 Volts!! So organised a replacement independently from Europarts, got the 5year guaranteed type and installed it. Applied a smart charger for 24 hours which showed the battery full at 13.4 volts. BUT the Idle Stop has not working at all since, but then I had not seen in the manual that Honda specifies a "special" part number for a replacement battery. As an electronics engineer I do not understand this at all. Sound to me like another 'captive' Honda part scheme.
So what to do? Do I have to limp back to the dealer, or blame Europarts for not supplying a suitable replacement from the reg no etc?

culzean

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #76 on: October 18, 2019, 06:15:36 PM »
Many Ford cars will not charge the battery properly if the 'wrong' battery is fitted ( this has no doubt spread to other makes of cars now ) - so just wondering if the replacement battery is 'the wrong chemistry' and the system cannot understand what the state of charge really is,  others on here with stop-start have had mysterious problems with the stop-start not working for a while and then it will start working - seems a bit fickle to me.

There is a video in this thread link about problems the Ford system has with charging battery if it is the 'wrong' type.

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10222.msg60870#msg60870

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/silver-calcium-batteries/
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 06:18:48 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

bill ericay

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #77 on: October 18, 2019, 07:39:54 PM »
On the Honda Civic with start/stop an EFB battery has to be fitted, I assume it is the same on the Jazz.
Also, there is a Honda Technical letter which states when you charge the battery in the car to use the positive terminal on the battery  and the chassis ground as the two attachment points . If you attach charger directly to the battery terminals apparently the car doesn't accept the battery as being charged , and prevents start/ stop from working.
No, I don't know why !
If I can find it I will post the tech letter. 

bill ericay

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #78 on: October 18, 2019, 07:49:40 PM »
Attachment attached hopefully !

culzean

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #79 on: October 18, 2019, 08:24:17 PM »
On the Honda Civic with start/stop an EFB battery has to be fitted, I assume it is the same on the Jazz.
Also, there is a Honda Technical letter which states when you charge the battery in the car to use the positive terminal on the battery  and the chassis ground as the two attachment points . If you attach charger directly to the battery terminals apparently the car doesn't accept the battery as being charged , and prevents start/ stop from working.
No, I don't know why !
If I can find it I will post the tech letter. 

Seems that connecting the charger directly to battery takes the current flow sensor ( like the ELD on normal cars ) out of the loop so that nothing is sensing current flowing into the battery and the system is non the wiser that any current has gone into battery,  even though the terminal voltage of battery may be OK .  It looks like the system is set up to sense current flowing in and out of battery and some algorithm works out how much capacity is left rather than just relying on the terminal voltage of battery being OK.

Info on EFB batteries

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/agm-efb-explained/

Q. What are the differences between standard flooded and EFB batteries?
A. EFB batteries are an enhanced version of standard wet-flooded technology. The primary benefits of EFB technology are improved charge acceptance and greater cyclic durability when operating in a reduced state of charge (typical of Stop Start applications). As an approximation, EFB batteries will provide 270,000 engine starts, compared to 30,000 starts from standard flooded product.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 09:11:52 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

bill ericay

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #80 on: October 18, 2019, 09:30:04 PM »
Well explained . Thanks Culzean.

John Ratsey

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #81 on: October 18, 2019, 10:10:20 PM »
Try disconnecting / reconnecting the battery now that it is fully charged. The system might now recognise it as a fully charged battery.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

culzean

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #82 on: October 19, 2019, 10:45:06 AM »
This is interesting article,  see the third option down 'Coulomb counting' - this basically measures the current entering a battery and compares it with what is leaving - so anything that disrupts this algorithm ( like changing the battery ) will cause problems.  I wonder if the system needs a reset when a known fully charged battery is in place ?  The 'impedance checking' may also be relevent,  as batteries discharge impedance for various states of charge can be checked - this is more accurate than simply measuring terminal voltage.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_measure_state_of_charge
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #83 on: December 23, 2019, 09:32:22 AM »
As an addition to this thread and how tricky modern battery charging has become..

I have a +/- 12 year old Philips 3 head HQ9 shaver, I have newer ones but non of them shave as well - the newer Philips have different type of cutter - which IMHO is cr4p - also tried a braun foil shaver but that is not too good either -- any way back on subject.... I decided to treat the shaver to a new battery - a 3.7 volt 700ma/h Li-ion cell - same size as a single 'AA' battery but with solder tags.  I checked the voltage on the replacement battery and it was 3.6 volts,  so fairly well charged when I soldered it back in.  Now for the strange part,  after a couple of days the red light on shaver flashed and it would not start, so i charged it up fully - after one shave the red light flashed and it would not start again***, so I took cover off and checked battery voltage - it was 3,85 volts so fully charged.   I then had a light bulb moment ( literally ) and decided to unsolder one end of the battery - made a 12volt 5watt ( W5W ) bulb with a couple of wires soldered on and connected it across the battery for a couple of hours ( I checked Li-Ion battery specs and 2.8 volts was discharged voltage ) and when it reached 2.8 volts I resoldered the battery back in and recharged it in the shaver.  Well since then I have used it every day for about 10 days and it is fine,  the 'state of charge' charge indicator LEDs on the shaver handle ( 5 of them ) have just started dropping down.    It is obvious that by fitting a fully charged battery I had 'fooled' the coulomb counter circuitry in the shaver and the only way to fix it was to deplete the battery and recharge it in the shaver so the charging circuit knew exactly how much power had gone into battery.  I read on the battery sellers website that a few people have said the batteries are no good and would not take a charge etc. but it is obvious that the problem was with the shaver circuitry not the battery.... The only real way to check the state of charge of Li-Ion batteries is by coulomb counting ( as is done in phones and laptops and Dyson vacuum cleaners etc. ),  so this will be the case with BEV as well, so in the case of swappable batteries for BEV  the fancy electronics controlling charging would have to stay with the battery - or at least some kind of module with the battery history in it.

note *** The shaver on-off switch is not connected directly between battery and motor,  it is wired into an integrated circuit and when you press it the button has to 'ask permission' to run the motor,  and if the coulomb counter is not happy it says 'no'...
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 10:53:29 AM by culzean »
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jazzaro

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #84 on: December 23, 2019, 11:03:40 AM »
Last month, after some weeks of hard work for the battery (many 1-2 minutes trips, cold and wet weather), after having noticed that the light drop during startup was higher than usual, I left the battery  in charge for a whole night, and the days after I had the alert "S&S not working for low battery". Obviously I charged the battery connecting the charger in the wrong way...
Then I found this thread, I read it, I read the tech note from Honda, I charged the battery for another night in the right way and now the start&stop works again.
I found some battery models for replacing the OEM  Yuasa YBX7053:
-Banner 55515
-Varta Silver Dynamic EFB N-55/80B24L
-Bosch ST Hightec EFB 70B24L (N55L)
When I write this post, only Yuasa and Banner are sold in Europe.

monkeydave

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #85 on: December 27, 2019, 05:06:10 PM »
Last month, after some weeks of hard work for the battery (many 1-2 minutes trips, cold and wet weather), after having noticed that the light drop during startup was higher than usual, I left the battery  in charge for a whole night, and the days after I had the alert "S&S not working for low battery". Obviously I charged the battery connecting the charger in the wrong way...
Then I found this thread, I read it, I read the tech note from Honda, I charged the battery for another night in the right way and now the start&stop works again.
I found some battery models for replacing the OEM  Yuasa YBX7053:
-Banner 55515
-Varta Silver Dynamic EFB N-55/80B24L
-Bosch ST Hightec EFB 70B24L (N55L)
When I write this post, only Yuasa and Banner are sold in Europe.

did you leave the battery connected to the car?

is it possible to charge one of these batteries and still have it connected to a car, i have a fairly modern charger with trickle and led lights for fully charged etc, i will be leaving my car standing for a week or two at a time as my work has moved very close to home but i will still do 120 miles nearly every sat for personal use

John Ratsey

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #86 on: December 27, 2019, 06:16:18 PM »
did you leave the battery connected to the car?

is it possible to charge one of these batteries and still have it connected to a car, i have a fairly modern charger with trickle and led lights for fully charged etc, i will be leaving my car standing for a week or two at a time as my work has moved very close to home but i will still do 120 miles nearly every sat for personal use
Yes, and it's best to connect the appropriate charger lead to the vehicle side of the battery sensor, not directly to the terminal, as it might help the vehicle to know that the battery has been charged.

My experience is that if the vehicle has been standing for a week, particularly during the winter months, then the vehicle may decide that there's not enough charge in the battery for the auto-stop to work (I suspect that the ambient temperature is a factor in the algorithm). Using the charger on the day before travelling should ensure that the battery charge is OK.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

monkeydave

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #87 on: December 27, 2019, 06:45:39 PM »
do you mean put the positive to the terminal under the plastic cover and the negative to the metal plate that is connected to the negative terminal?

thanks

ColinB

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #88 on: December 28, 2019, 07:46:19 AM »
I find all this talk of needing to top-up the battery charge rather puzzling. I left my Jazz unattended in the garage for 5 weeks during the coldest part of last winter, and it started first time with no fuss on our return. The stop/start didn’t work immediately, but that happens anyway in cold-soak conditions even if the car is used regularly (I put it down to one of the inhibiting conditions being battery internal temperature).

We also had an event where “someone else” left one of the map reading lights on overnight so the battery flattened completely; AA duly called, recharged (without removing from car) enough to start the engine, and no problems thereafter.

So I’d say there’s no need to faff around with supplementary chargers all the time, if the car has a healthy battery and you charge it by driving then it’s quite capable of sorting itself out. Of course, if the battery isn’t healthy then it’s time for a new battery rather than continually trickle-charging it.

Jocko

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #89 on: December 28, 2019, 09:33:15 AM »
I am off the same opinion. It is 30 years since I owned a battery charger and even longer since I needed to use it. And back then I ran all I could afford, old bangers with knackered batteries.
If I have a cranking issue I cannot explain I just fit a new battery. As I have said elsewhere, a car that won't start is only good for keeping chickens in.

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