Author Topic: Auto stop and battery indicator  (Read 40402 times)

orcadian

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2019, 10:58:39 AM »
Well, I have an update on the situation with our car which we bought as a one owner ‘Approved’ Honda from a dealer.  We are about to go on a trip South from Orkney next week and can drop in at the dealers, firstly to get the mysterious service book fully filled in (another story on another thread!) more importantly to see what they say about the battery.  From December when we bought the car the stop/start has never worked, in spite of some long trips. On Wednesday I put the stabilised power supply on the battery and left it until Thursday morning, at which point the charge had gone down to about 100 milliamps - about as good as it gets from past experience with bike and car batteries.  It was a very bright dry day so no auto lights, no wipers needed, aircon off,  heater blower on number 1.  About the best set of circumstances.  Drove out to Finstown, about 13 miles and pulled into a lay-by, no stop start and battery symbol showing.  Drove into Kirkwall, another 7 miles or so and parked the car stop start worked for the first time ever.
It worked quite a few times after that so at least the actual system works.  Not used the car since so will see what happens next but I can’t see the dealer doing anything about it, so I think we will just have to wait till the batter fails.  Genuine one seems to be about £170, £200 direct from Yuasa.  Years ago I sold our Citroen Berlingo van - it’s still here in Orkney and still with original battery on a 55 plate and 140k miles.

Ian

peteo48

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2019, 11:51:42 AM »
Hopefully Ian, it is just the vagaries of the system as is definitely the case with mine. As above, mine is now working after a six week lay off - the longest time of non functioning so far.

There is obviously some internal logic to how the system works that is at variance with human logic. So - 80 mile return trip on good roads last Sunday - must have charged the battery up. You would then expect it (the stop start) to work on the Monday. It continued not working on the Monday but, on the Tuesday, decided to start working again and has worked ever since - indeed kicking in when the engine is probably not up to optimum temperature.

My advice would be not to stress unduly about it. You could get yourself into a tedious cycle of taking the car back and forwards to the dealer and still not resolving the issue. I'd focus on the fact that it is now working and accept it is quite a sensitive system.

John Ratsey

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2019, 12:04:00 PM »
The system is happiest when the vehicle is in daily use, even if only shortish journeys, and gets upset (confused) when use is less frequent even if the journeys are longer. In my experience it's more temperamental during winter months with lower temperatures. As my usage is usually fewer but longer trips I'm resigned to putting the battery on charge the day before in the hope and expectation that the auto-stop will then be happy about the battery condition.

I suspect that the Honda engineers have made the logic over-cautious in the quest for ensuring that the engine would never auto-stop and then hesitate, or fail, to restart which would infuriate customers a lot more than the engine not stopping when expected.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

orcadian

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2019, 01:10:39 PM »
Thanks Peteo and John,
Yes I’ve come to accept that the Honda architecture designer boffins know better than we do - and would not want the wrath of customers whose cars won’t start in a queue on a motorway.  I also have a 2000 Supercharged Daimler and if the battery is less than fully charged it throws up all kinds of ‘fruit machine’ messages on the display indicating that there are multiple expensive faults which disappear almost immediately - all it needed was a ‘charge the damn battery’ message.

As I’ve said many times, I’m not really that bothered about the stop start, especially here in Orkney but wanted to be able to poke the dealer with a sharp stick if it needed a battery so early in its life with us.  We both still love the car though and I’ve now had all the wheels off to check everything the ‘Approved’ label should have thrown up.  I had to resort to a very large Thor rawhide hammer to get the wheels to come off to clean the alloy fur from the centre bosses - they had never been off - ever!  I’ve always had a chuckle to myself when I see ‘guaranteed used cars’ Yes they can guarantee they have been used!

What with the blank service book, an old jack included (which should not have been) which is stamped Audi VW and no initial V5 plus the paint chips not being attended to as agreed I really should have put it in the hands of Mother Honda - that Dealership is definitely off my list - their multi point check list is a farce.

Thanks again,
Ian

Downsizer

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2019, 01:22:43 PM »
You shock me when you say the price of a new battery is £170!  I paid the AA £70 for fitting a Yuasa replacement for my Mk 2 when I got stuck; is the battery for the Mk3 so very different?

peteo48

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2019, 01:58:43 PM »
The system is happiest when the vehicle is in daily use, even if only shortish journeys, and gets upset (confused) when use is less frequent even if the journeys are longer. In my experience it's more temperamental during winter months with lower temperatures. As my usage is usually fewer but longer trips I'm resigned to putting the battery on charge the day before in the hope and expectation that the auto-stop will then be happy about the battery condition.

I suspect that the Honda engineers have made the logic over-cautious in the quest for ensuring that the engine would never auto-stop and then hesitate, or fail, to restart which would infuriate customers a lot more than the engine not stopping when expected.

That is almost certainly covers my experience John. It doesn't get used every day and the issues are almost always in the cooler weather.

sghc

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2019, 03:01:00 PM »
The stop-start actually is barred from working if you have the ventilation airflow directed to Windscreen, whether or not you are using the AC, just as it is inhibited when the AC is operating. Try it! Press firmly! Quite apart from cold engine or in any circumstances when any engine might be less easy to start (Never mind about autostarting).
I was sceptical at first as to the refinement of the stop start mechanism, but in the Jazz its really smooth compared to other brands of my experience. I now see no point in disliking it.
In fact, unlike others I'm reading here for the first time, its a very modern car, better then even the excellent previous Jazz in several ways, and I just have to get used to its various new ways, and agree to like it and stop carping! We weren't forced to buy one!
However the feeble dipped-headlights for me are something else, and a disappointment. No-one ever takes a test drive in the dark! The very latest EX now has LED headlights and the legally required auto levelling sensors, so regrettably not possible to upgrade an ES Navi grade to LED.   :(

John A

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #52 on: March 23, 2019, 03:43:42 PM »
You shock me when you say the price of a new battery is £170!  I paid the AA £70 for fitting a Yuasa replacement for my Mk 2 when I got stuck; is the battery for the Mk3 so very different?

The stop start battery in my 2016 CVT car is maybe 50% bigger than the one in my 2014 manual, non-stop / start car.

orcadian

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #53 on: March 23, 2019, 03:54:54 PM »
Yes,
The mk 3 battery is very different from the one on earlier non stop/start cars.  It’s described as EFB (extreme flooded battery) Yuasa YBX 7053.  I would not want to move away from OE spec for the battery on a supposedly ‘intelligent’ but sometimes stupid system.
I’ll also try the windscreen off position on the controls but ours is SE so has the rotary system.
Ian

John Ratsey

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #54 on: March 23, 2019, 05:18:33 PM »
However the feeble dipped-headlights for me are something else, and a disappointment. No-one ever takes a test drive in the dark! The very latest EX now has LED headlights and the legally required auto levelling sensors, so regrettably not possible to upgrade an ES Navi grade to LED.   :(
Slightly off-topic but the solution for your headlights is discussed here https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=8738.msg67466#msg67466. Not cheap, but well worth the investment in my experience.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

peteo48

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #55 on: March 23, 2019, 05:42:49 PM »
The stop-start actually is barred from working if you have the ventilation airflow directed to Windscreen, whether or not you are using the AC, just as it is inhibited when the AC is operating. Try it! Press firmly! Quite apart from cold engine or in any circumstances when any engine might be less easy to start (Never mind about autostarting).
I was sceptical at first as to the refinement of the stop start mechanism, but in the Jazz its really smooth compared to other brands of my experience. I now see no point in disliking it.


Interesting. Presumably when it is set to windscreen only? I have mine set at screen and footwell more or less permanently and the aircon is on more often than not.

The pattern with mine is that it stops working for an extended period and then kicks in again. I can live with it, after all I managed without such a system until I bought this car.

andruec

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #56 on: March 23, 2019, 08:07:45 PM »
The stop-start actually is barred from working if you have the ventilation airflow directed to Windscreen, whether or not you are using the AC, just as it is inhibited when the AC is operating. Try it! Press firmly! Quite apart from cold engine or in any circumstances when any engine might be less easy to start (Never mind about autostarting).
I was sceptical at first as to the refinement of the stop start mechanism, but in the Jazz its really smooth compared to other brands of my experience. I now see no point in disliking it.


Interesting. Presumably when it is set to windscreen only? I have mine set at screen and footwell more or less permanently and the aircon is on more often than not.
Same here. I have climate control but have found that during winter I have to override it and set it to windscreen and feet. But my idle stop continues to function any time I bring the vehicle to a complete halt with the foot brake depressed. Totally reliable and predictable.

Only difference is that my car gets used at least 6 times a week and most journeys are at least ten miles.

John Ratsey

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2019, 07:15:56 AM »
Interesting. Presumably when it is set to windscreen only? I have mine set at screen and footwell more or less permanently and the aircon is on more often than not.
I would add that auto-stop not working due to cabin heating / cooling should result in the A/C symbol, not the battery symbol, being show as the reason for auto-stop not working. Pressing the ECO button on my HR-V widens the difference between target and actual temperatures tolerated by the auto-stop system. I can't remember if the Mk 3 Jazz also has the ECO button.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

Downsizer

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2019, 09:26:02 AM »
Yes,
The mk 3 battery is very different from the one on earlier non stop/start cars.  It’s described as EFB (extreme flooded battery) Yuasa YBX 7053.  I would not want to move away from OE spec for the battery on a supposedly ‘intelligent’ but sometimes stupid system.
I’ll also try the windscreen off position on the controls but ours is SE so has the rotary system.
Ian
If an EFB battery is so much more expensive than a traditional lead acid one, and is needed for the auto-stop feature, it begs the question of the overall benefit.  The fuel saving is so small that the extra battery cost will never be recovered.  So the only benefit of auto-stop must be reduced pollution in town centres.  But how much extra pollution is produced in the manufacture of the more complex EFB unit?

orcadian

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2019, 10:56:12 AM »
Yes Downsizer,
The bigger picture!  I’ve been banging on about this encouragement to buy electric vehicles without looking at the bigger picture.  Yes, I can see the benefit of stop start in towns but here in the frozen North, it is rarely going to happen and as you say an expensive battery required.  Same with catalytic converters, only any good when very hot on a motorway, total negative effect on the school run journeys.  I still maintain that my 19 year old 4 litre Supercharged V8 has been less harmful to the planet overall than someone buying a new vehicle every 2 years.  How long will it be before some Government ‘think tank’ (now there’s an oxymoron) decides we should all drive without lights to save harmful emissions caused by the drag on the alternator.  Must go now, all today’s rants used up and Nurse is here with the medication 😉
Ian

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