Author Topic: Auto stop and battery indicator  (Read 40367 times)

orcadian

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2019, 10:07:34 AM »
I’m really pleased with these often different yet very informative replies and it seems that there should be no problem when the temperatures increase and we have a few longer trips.  As I indicated before, what was really of immediate concern was the fact that the car had been unused for 12 months plus and without regular checking and charging could have gone completely flat.  This is not the way to treat a lead acid battery as we all know and as the car was from a rather uncooperative Honda Dealer, we wanted to tackle them (or Honda) early if it needed a replacement.  If it lasts another year, then I won’t mind replacing it myself but was certainly not prepared to do that in the first few months on a so called ‘Honda Approved’ vehicle which ‘apparently’ had a comprehensive multi point check prior to resale.
We are both really pleased with the car after only 1000 miles or so and just returning from a holiday, having left the car outside here in Orkney for nearly a fortnight, it started as though we had just popped down the shops, so I think we can forget about the battery state for a while.

Ian

peteo48

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2019, 10:05:40 PM »
Just a little bit of info relating to my car and its Auto Idle Stop system. It hasn't operated for about 6 weeks now and shows the battery symbol when it doesn't activate.

Done a decent drive today - 80 mile return trip on mainly motorways and other dual carriageways. It is still showing the battery symbol - ie the battery is too flat for it to activate - seems a bit odd to me, I would have thought the 80 mile trip would have done the business.

John Ratsey

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2019, 08:18:01 AM »
Done a decent drive today - 80 mile return trip on mainly motorways and other dual carriageways. It is still showing the battery symbol - ie the battery is too flat for it to activate - seems a bit odd to me, I would have thought the 80 mile trip would have done the business.
You might have fallen foul of the battery condition check which is done at the start of the trip although, if your 80 miles was split as 2 x 40 miles, then I would have expected that the outgoing 40 miles would be sufficient to get the battery sufficiently charged to pass the check at the start of the return trip. However, I also suspect that temperature is a factor in the software's deliberations.What was the ambient temperature?

I'm also baffled by the characteristics of the batteries used for the stop-start systems. On Friday morning my HR-V's battery was 11.8V after standing for 3 weeks. The engine started fine followed by a 4 mile trip to the local Honda agent for the annual service which reported the battery as good at 12.32V.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

culzean

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2019, 09:33:14 AM »
Done a decent drive today - 80 mile return trip on mainly motorways and other dual carriageways. It is still showing the battery symbol - ie the battery is too flat for it to activate - seems a bit odd to me, I would have thought the 80 mile trip would have done the business.
You might have fallen foul of the battery condition check which is done at the start of the trip although, if your 80 miles was split as 2 x 40 miles, then I would have expected that the outgoing 40 miles would be sufficient to get the battery sufficiently charged to pass the check at the start of the return trip. However, I also suspect that temperature is a factor in the software's deliberations.What was the ambient temperature?

I'm also baffled by the characteristics of the batteries used for the stop-start systems. On Friday morning my HR-V's battery was 11.8V after standing for 3 weeks. The engine started fine followed by a 4 mile trip to the local Honda agent for the annual service which reported the battery as good at 12.32V.

I would have been expecting a reading of 12.6 volts for a good battery. I was following a Merc in crawling traffic the other day and it obviously had stop-start, every time traffic moved the cars tail-lights dimmed and it gave a 'shudder' as it restarted - as an engineer it did not look good to me....   I saw an article on a guy with a Ford Mondeo who had a battery fail on his car, a new battery was fitted but he still had problems with battery charging, anyway after going to the Ford dealer and some investigation he was told that the wrong type of battery had been fitted and it was fooling the 'smart charge ' system that is designed to protect the battery from excess charging when battery temperature is low and also 'optimise' charging in normal driving to take load off alternator and improve MPG.  When correct type of battery ( AGM or calcium I think ) was fitted everything went back to normally.  So it seems that even the slight differences in charging voltage and chemistry between battery types can badly affect the operation of smart charging.  The heart of the smart charging is temperature sensor and a current flow sensor on battery positive terminal, and I think most modern cars have these, including Honda.

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10222.msg60874#msg60874
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 10:43:02 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

peteo48

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2019, 10:15:37 AM »
Done a decent drive today - 80 mile return trip on mainly motorways and other dual carriageways. It is still showing the battery symbol - ie the battery is too flat for it to activate - seems a bit odd to me, I would have thought the 80 mile trip would have done the business.
You might have fallen foul of the battery condition check which is done at the start of the trip although, if your 80 miles was split as 2 x 40 miles, then I would have expected that the outgoing 40 miles would be sufficient to get the battery sufficiently charged to pass the check at the start of the return trip. However, I also suspect that temperature is a factor in the software's deliberations.What was the ambient temperature?

I'm also baffled by the characteristics of the batteries used for the stop-start systems. On Friday morning my HR-V's battery was 11.8V after standing for 3 weeks. The engine started fine followed by a 4 mile trip to the local Honda agent for the annual service which reported the battery as good at 12.32V.

It was about 7 degrees going out and about 10 degrees when I started the return leg. I'm not overly concerned (I'm agnostic on these systems) but I might do a voltage test.

John A

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2019, 11:39:36 AM »
It was about 7 degrees going out and about 10 degrees when I started the return leg. I'm not overly concerned (I'm agnostic on these systems) but I might do a voltage test.

I have a voltmeter like this,  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LED-Digital-Auto-Car-Truck-Cigarette-Lighter-Volt-Voltage-Meter-Monitor-12V-24V/202260870213?epid=10006309671&hash=item2f17aff445:g:5E0AAOSwnCxaqU83:rk:3:pf:1&frcectupt=true  quite interesting seeing the readings, eg if the headlights are on then it seems to default to 13.7v, and will still start stop, otherwise it can be around 12v when the engine is running and the battery is up to charge. Doesn't tell everything about the batteries state, but gives useful information.

John Ratsey

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2019, 01:08:32 PM »
I would have been expecting a reading of 12.6 volts for a good battery.
So would I, but this battery has abnormal characteristics such as the ability to start the vehicle without hesitation with the voltage at 11.8V. However much I charge it it won't stay above 12.4V.

When correct type of battery ( AGM or calcium I think ) was fitted everything went back to normally.  So it seems that even the slight differences in charging voltage and chemistry between battery types can badly affect the operation of smart charging.  The heart of the smart charging is temperature sensor and a current flow sensor on battery positive terminal, and I think most modern cars have these, including Honda.
I have no reason to doubt that it's the original battery. However, the suitability of batteries fitted in the Mexican-made HR-Vs for the stop-start system is another matter. That said, I also had temperamental stop-start on the Mk 3 Jazz I owned before getting the HR-V. And yes, the HR-V has "intelligent" battery sensor. That's yet another unknown and could be a factor in peoples' variable experiences with the stop-start system.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

culzean

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2019, 01:16:15 PM »
I would have been expecting a reading of 12.6 volts for a good battery.
So would I, but this battery has abnormal characteristics such as the ability to start the vehicle without hesitation with the voltage at 11.8V. However much I charge it it won't stay above 12.4V.

When correct type of battery ( AGM or calcium I think ) was fitted everything went back to normally.  So it seems that even the slight differences in charging voltage and chemistry between battery types can badly affect the operation of smart charging.  The heart of the smart charging is temperature sensor and a current flow sensor on battery positive terminal, and I think most modern cars have these, including Honda.
I have no reason to doubt that it's the original battery. However, the suitability of batteries fitted in the Mexican-made HR-Vs for the stop-start system is another matter. That said, I also had temperamental stop-start on the Mk 3 Jazz I owned before getting the HR-V. And yes, the HR-V has "intelligent" battery sensor. That's yet another unknown and could be a factor in peoples' variable experiences with the stop-start system.

https://www.yuasa.co.uk/info/technical/start-stop-vehicle-battery-replacement-warning/

stop-start systems with intelligent charging are well dodgy and rely on the battery being the correct type- apparently some of the systems have charging systems with a memory effect that will never fully charge the battery.  It seems the cleverer things get the stupider they are..
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peteo48

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2019, 01:36:22 PM »
Ahh - the old memory effect. I remember that from the brick like mobile phones we had at work in the early 1990s.

peteo48

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2019, 05:27:31 PM »
Update!!

For the first time in 6 weeks the auto idle stop worked today after a short journey of 2 miles. Not that warm either. Got a mind of its own this system.

I can live with it though.

John Ratsey

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2019, 05:54:08 PM »
For the first time in 6 weeks the auto idle stop worked today after a short journey of 2 miles. Not that warm either. Got a mind of its own this system.
I suspect that your 80 mile trip had done enough to get the relevant boxes ticked at the start of this journey.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

John A

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2019, 06:00:37 PM »
Ahh - the old memory effect. I remember that from the brick like mobile phones we had at work in the early 1990s.

A ni-cad battery problem.

culzean

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #42 on: March 19, 2019, 06:47:26 PM »
Ahh - the old memory effect. I remember that from the brick like mobile phones we had at work in the early 1990s.

A ni-cad battery problem.

It was the charging system that had the memory effect on some smart charge car systems ( not the battery ), they seem to remember some figure like 80% and will not charge battery above that figure.  There are dire warnings about jump starting Ford cars with smart charging system as excess voltages can be developed in the system, also warnings about charging the battery while still connected in the car - sometimes I think these systems are not so smart, in fact they are pretty dumb and only fitted to make make owners life difficult..
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 06:49:19 PM by culzean »
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ColinB

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #43 on: March 19, 2019, 08:31:37 PM »
For the first time in 6 weeks the auto idle stop worked today after a short journey of 2 miles. Not that warm either. Got a mind of its own this system.

Sounds like you've seen the same behaviour as I reported:
Just done the first motorway drive since returning, and I still got the "low battery" indication when I stopped after around 80 miles. However at traffic lights just a couple of miles after restarting it started functioning normally. That suggests there's something in the theory that the computer decides at the start of a drive if IS is going to function, and doesn't revisit that decision until a new drive starts even if all the inhibiting factors - such as battery charge - become OK during the drive.

At last, some consistency !

peteo48

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Re: Auto stop and battery indicator
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2019, 11:09:04 AM »
I agree Colin - uncannily similar behaviour.

If I was being complimentary to the system I would suggest it is quite conservative in deciding when the charge is sufficient.

Just been out today to Sainsburys. Round trip of 4 miles. System operated at every light!

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