Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: Sharon on August 12, 2019, 07:01:37 PM

Title: Non Starter
Post by: Sharon on August 12, 2019, 07:01:37 PM
Hi all, from this chain of events can anyone work out what may be the issue?

1) Couple of weeks ago, due to leaving a cig lighter gadget 'on' all night, I woke to a flat battery.
2) After jump starting the car, I went for a short drive, to give the battery some life.
3) Next day (and this time nothing was left 'on' overnight) the battery was flat again.
4) I went to a tyre place and asked them to check the battery for me, they did and the test showed that the battery (it's only 18 months old) was working fine. The guy told me to take the battery out and trickle charge it all night to get a fuller charge.
5) I bought a charger from Halfords and did the above. Stuck it in the car, and it started first time. Great. 
6) The next couple of days all went fine with the car starting with no issues.
7) Yesterday I went out on a VERY long journey, and after all that I fully expected the battery to be finally fully charged, and expected no further issues.
8) Today ....FLAT. Nothing has been left on in the car overnight, so why? Althought its a 2004 car,  It's done around 64k miles so is something failing?
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: sparky Paul on August 12, 2019, 07:07:38 PM
Get the alternator tested.

Failing that, it's possible you may have a drain somewhere, gradually running the battery down. Battery could even be faulty, testers aren't infallible.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Sharon on August 12, 2019, 07:31:43 PM
Do Kwik fit - and other battery tyre type places - test alternators? And if its knackered, what sort of cost would a replacement be?
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Jocko on August 12, 2019, 08:37:12 PM
Normally the places that test batteries will check the output from the alternator.
You can get a second hand one on eBay for about £25 - £30.
Personally, I would be looking to the battery being at fault. Can you guarantee it is only 18 months old? Has it got a date stamp on it?
With everything switched off try disconnecting the battery and see if there is a tiny spark as you remove/refit the cable. If there is then there is a drain on the battery. Is the boot light on?
Jazz alternators are extremely reliable hence the cheap price of secondhand ones. No market for them.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: culzean on August 12, 2019, 08:41:36 PM
Do Kwik fit - and other battery tyre type places - test alternators? And if its knackered, what sort of cost would a replacement be?

It only needs a decent voltmeter to see if when engine running at about 2000 revs the voltage across battery 13.8 to 14.2 volts.  As Sparky Paul says the battery testers are not infallible - you may have a relay stuck in that is supplying power to something like heated rear screen, heated mirrors or aircon compressor clutch even with ignition off, or even the light in the boot staying on when tailgate closed due to faulty switch, or even interior cabin courtesy  light where switch left in override position but you would notice that.

 I think the thing left plugged into cigarette lighter socket is a red herring as power is removed from that socket when ignition off ( unless previous owner did some modifications to the supply to it ).
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Jocko on August 12, 2019, 08:46:42 PM
Not many people have access to a voltmeter, decent of otherwise. But any garage should have, so if you have a friendly garage nearby, they may very well check it at no cost.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: MartinJG on August 12, 2019, 08:46:50 PM
Get the alternator tested.

Failing that, it's possible you may have a drain somewhere, gradually running the battery down. Battery could even be faulty, testers aren't infallible.

Yes. I know there have been a few incidents of mysterious battery drain over time where the cuplrit was a dodgy earth connection in the boot area, possibly behind the plastic panelling. Sorry I can't be more specific.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Sharon on August 12, 2019, 09:00:43 PM
Thank you so much for your comments guys.

One thing: - If it is a situation where something sneaky is continually draining the battery overnight, how come its been ok for a few days, but flat again today? I'm just wondering if that fact may point further to the dodgy alternator idea?
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Jocko on August 12, 2019, 09:16:45 PM
Could certainly point to an occasionally sticking relay.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: culzean on August 12, 2019, 10:10:10 PM
Could certainly point to an occasionally sticking relay.

+1

The load drawn by most things controlled by a relay would easily flatten a fully charged battery in less than 8 hours, for example the aircon clutch solenoid will draw over 3 amps, as will heated mirrors, heated screen even more. The  engine and aircon cooling fans also relay controlled, as are headlights but it is obvious if they stay on after ignition key removed..
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: culzean on August 13, 2019, 11:29:33 AM
You could get one of these or similar, the Ring ones seem to have coloured LED indicator lights which show system voltage pretty accurately with all lights lit it shows 14 volts, certainly accurate enough to show if alternator is charging battery, as a bonus you get extra cigarette lighter socket and a couple of USB charging outlets...

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/car-accessories/interior-car-accessories/halfords-cup-holder-multi-socket
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Sharon on August 13, 2019, 12:11:32 PM
Culzean, thanks. Will get one of those. Can you advise best plan to use it ? Should I maybe check the voltage after stopping car and then again an hour later?
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: culzean on August 13, 2019, 02:07:17 PM
Culzean, thanks. Will get one of those. Can you advise best plan to use it ? Should I maybe check the voltage after stopping car and then again an hour later?

You can use the lights to show alternator is charging as all 4 lights including the green one will be on,  the lights are RED= low voltage, orange = 12 volts, yellow =  12.5 volts and green = 14 volts.   When all lights on including green are lit you can be sure alternator is pumping out around 14 volts,  after a run when the engine is stopped the green goes out and 3 lights will be on,  sometimes after a while only 2 lights on as battery voltage stabilises.   At least lights are easily visible and give a constant health check on system voltage - if you see the green one on with engine running you know system voltage is high enough to charge battery OK, so after that if you see it drop too quickly you are looking at a dodgy battery or a parasitic load draining power from battery.  We have one in both our cars and very useful for charging phones or running dashcam and  satnav at same time and you can use a normal USB to micro USB lead to charge two phones at same time.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Kenneve on August 13, 2019, 02:37:40 PM
Whilst not directly connected to a Jazz, my daughter recently purchased a 2014 Landrover Discovery 4 which has covered 115k miles. Within 2 days we had a message on the dashboard saying 'Battery Low, please start engine'.
I checked the  battery voltage after a run and found it to be 12.3V, which is way down on the nominal of 12.7V.
Today she called the AA out to check, they found it to be over 50% down on capacity, probably because it was the original battery as fitted when the car was new. They have replaced the battery with a new AGM 100 HA 850CCA battery and all is well, no messages.
It has be said that any modern car contains a whole host of electronics and a low battery can be the cause of many problems.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Sharon on August 13, 2019, 06:02:52 PM
ok, got one. All lights come on when driving. Red and green when parked up. Will monitor the issue. Thanks Culzean and everyone else with good advice.  ;D
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Sharon on August 18, 2019, 07:03:04 PM
ok, battery went flat again. Realised the battery was still in warranty with AA so thought I'd try and get them to change it. They came out and whilst their test only said "battery needs charging" (as opposed to battery needs condeming) the guy was decent enough to change it anyway. So, brand new battery.

Using the Halfords gadget I can see that it never gets higher than the 12v first stage reading, and now, for some reason, when driving, instead of all the lights being on all the time, even this is intermittent, sometimes they all come on, sometimes they go off and there is just the first light on. Is this now pointing to an alternator issue?
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: culzean on August 18, 2019, 08:46:58 PM
All lights should be on with engine running, are you sure they supplied you a new battery, they may pass on the one they took out of your car to another punter.... ( how cynical I am ).  The Halfords ( Ring ) lights are pretty foolproof as the circuitry inside the device only allows them to light up at or above the set voltage, so if the last light does not light up with 'new' battery but did with old one it's a puzzle. The advice earlier in thread about having a sticky relay would explain why battery is going flat intermittently - the aircon clutch relay is the most likely suspect as it feeds an inductive load which will cause sparks at the contacts as the relay switches off which damages the contacts - the heated screen, mirror and head light ones have resistive loads which do not spark. 

Didn't the AA engineer test the alternator output while he was checking your car ? Seems strange if they did not..... seems to me to be the most obvious and basic check if battery going flat.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: sparky Paul on August 18, 2019, 09:28:53 PM
Using the Halfords gadget I can see that it never gets higher than the 12v first stage reading, and now, for some reason, when driving, instead of all the lights being on all the time, even this is intermittent, sometimes they all come on, sometimes they go off and there is just the first light on. Is this now pointing to an alternator issue?

Alternator check, which is more or less what you have done yourself with the gadget, points to an intermittent fault in the charging circuit somewhere.

There's a good chance it could be alternator, but get all connections to the alternator, battery to chassis earth cable, and the earth strap to the engine checked first - they are a lot cheaper to rectify.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: culzean on August 19, 2019, 09:17:37 AM
Another quick check is to put headlights on and rev the engine - with filament bulbs the lights should brighten up as engine goes from tickover to about 2000 rpm as system voltage rises - as Sparky Paul says corrosion of terminals and earth strap can be problematic - especially where copper or brass earth strap lugs bolt to steel body or aluminium of engine ( where the different metals can cause electrolytic corrosion ). 

As a matter of course when i get a car I always bolt one of these straight from negative battery terminal to the engine ( one of the 6mm bolts on the clutch slave cylinder makes a handy fixing point on the engine ). The PDF attachment shows if fitted on a MK2 Jazz but gives an example.  This will not cure a faulty alternator but at least makes sure there is a good connection between battery and engine other than the dodgy straps bolted to steel bodywork which are very prone to corrosion,  and gives the high current a much better path when starting the engine.

https://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SearchRouter?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10151&action=search&srch=braided+earth+strap

If you want a more technical way to check system voltage -

 https://www.halfords.com/motoring/motorcycling/motorcycle-battery-chargers-accessories/ring-12v--battery-voltage-tester?_br_psugg_q=voltmeter

Here is a link to similar problem on MK2, seems the battery was OK in winter but when the guy started using aircon in warmer weather the problem returned, which pointed to a sticking aircon relay - unfortunately never did get a final answer. 

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=9841.30

There is an electronic load detection unit in the underbonnet fusebox of the Jazz that senses the load being drawn from battery and adjusts the alternator output accordingly, if this is faulty it could give the effect of a faulty alternator - I would turn all lights and heated things on ( mirrors and windows ) and see if that extra load kicks the alternator and brings the four lights on Halfords gadget on,  if it does it could be that the load sensor needs some attention.

Information of load sensor with photographs

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10222.msg60870#msg60870
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Jocko on August 19, 2019, 12:14:33 PM
For the complexities of modern vehicle electrical systems I have always found forking out a little cash and employing the services of a good specialist auto electrician worth the money.
There is such a business near me, and the twice that I have used them has saved me considerable stress (and I am a retired Electronic/Electrical Engineer). These guys deal with vehicle electrics day in day out and have all the gear for diagnostic checks.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: culzean on August 19, 2019, 06:09:34 PM
For the complexities of modern vehicle electrical systems I have always found forking out a little cash and employing the services of a good specialist auto electrician worth the money.
There is such a business near me, and the twice that I have used them has saved me considerable stress (and I am a retired Electronic/Electrical Engineer). These guys deal with vehicle electrics day in day out and have all the gear for diagnostic checks.

I think the technical ability of dealers has been declining for a long time now,  they often cannot fix things even with the full backing of company that made the car - maybe they think more of their salesmen than their workshop people.  A good specialist will probably have more experienced staff.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Sharon on September 17, 2019, 03:12:30 PM
STILL having a nightmare with this.

After the AA put a new battery in, it went ok for a while. Then it failed, totally flat in the morning. I went to see the auto elec guy and he tested it. Said the battery was charging fine, and that it would need more extensive tests. Asked me to book it in a week later.
For the rest of that week, it all ran ok.  And I decided to cancel the appointment thinking (hoping)  that I may have gone over a bump or something and the fault had righted itself.
A week after that, it was flat again one morning, and then again the next  morning.
Called auto elec guy, but as he seems to be the busiest man on Earth, he was booked up for the next week or so. He told me to call him the following week. 
During that time, the fault was intermittent. Sometimes the battery would be ok for a few days, then totally flat. The last two days before I saw the electrician, it was flat.
So ...... today I went to see him. He lifted the bonnet, tested the battery, shut the bonnet and said "the fault is that your battery is knackered". WHAT? It's a virtually new battery and the AA put it in a few weeks ago BECAUSE of this ongoing fault"!!  He said,  " the issue now is that your battery is knackered and we cant go anywhere else until you get a new one".
Arrrgghhh. I've had to now go out and buy a new battery, but I just know it's going to be flat again in 2/3 days. At that point, when I try to contact the electrician, he will no doubt be booked up again for a week or two, meaning that my battery will be going flat every other day and end up knackered again.
How can I get this sorted????
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Jocko on September 17, 2019, 03:41:12 PM
What I would do is arrange for the auto electrician to fit a new battery and do the necessary checks at a time suitable to you both. If he fits the battery he has no wriggle room later.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: sparky Paul on September 17, 2019, 04:53:41 PM
Sorry to hear that this still isn't resolved.

I'm surprised that a new battery has been wiped out in a the space of of a few weeks, even with the abuse it's had. A new battery should be able to stand heavy discharges for that short a period. Make sure you keep the old battery and contact the AA with a view to claiming under warranty. Preferably, if you can, charge it to full and check it for a week or two before condemning it.

Some auto electricians like to eliminate the battery, by replacing it, before even looking at a starting/charging problem. The ELD (electronic load detector) mentioned by culzean is also a fairly common failure, and there are auto electricians out there that haven't a clue what they are. They are also difficult to diagnose if the fault is intermittant.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: culzean on September 17, 2019, 06:28:12 PM
Personally I would suspect a sticking relay - probably aircon clutch solenoid but maybe heated mirror or rear windscreen. 

If you are keeping an eye on the four LED indicators on the cup holder gizmo and the green one is lit up with engine running  the battery should be charging fine, but discharging overnight means a big parasitic load,  the aircon clutch draws over 3 amps so will easily flatten a Jazz battery overnight, heated mirrors even more, and rear screen maybe 12 to 15 amps ( flatten fully charged battery in less than 3 hours ).
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Sharon on September 17, 2019, 07:20:33 PM
Thanks for your help guys.

The idea of getting the auto elec guy to fit the battery was great. Unfortunately, I went out immediately and got a new one fitted at a place he recommended.

Meanwhile, the halfords gadget: - After the new battery was fitted I drove off and only the first two lights were on. I accept that the battery probably needs a charge as it's new, but, does this suggest again that the alternator is not charging the battery? This happened on the last battery. Sometimes all the lights would be on when driving, sometimes, just one or two.   
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: culzean on September 17, 2019, 07:52:18 PM
The new battery should be pretty well charged when fitted, but even if it wasn't the alternator should easily be able to generate enough current to charge it and run the car electrics..


If only two lights on when driving you certainly have a charging problem as two lights showing only about 12 volts - which means alternator doing nothing.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Sharon on September 17, 2019, 09:16:11 PM
ok, and when the auto elec guy tested it, he said the battery was charging fine. SO... seems that its potentially the alternator,  with an intermittent problem.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: sparky Paul on September 17, 2019, 09:18:40 PM
culzean's absolutely right, we are back where you originally got the voltage indicator - a fault causing intermittent charging.

As you say, probably alternator. Less likely, but possible, ELD unit.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: culzean on September 18, 2019, 09:16:56 AM
Counter intuitive as it sounds try putting all the headlights and heated things on while engine running,  this can kick the ELD into telling the alternator to max charge,  found this on a Ford site where unless you fit the correct AGM battery the ELD will not work properly and people in Ford cars were getting flat batteries after OEM battery replaced for another type, when correct spec battery fitted everything OK,  the Ford ELD system was very complicated though,  looking for battery temp and other stuff to decide battery charge.

Look at this thread, especially reply #7

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10222.msg60932#msg60932
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Sharon on September 18, 2019, 07:25:28 PM
ok, think I'm gonna get the alternator changed. Where's best place to get this done? I'm not going back to autoelec guy, his belligerant attitude has made me feel I'm 'mithering him'.   :(
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: culzean on September 18, 2019, 09:23:38 PM
Did you try putting headlights and other loads ( heated rear window ) on for a short time while driving to see if alternator can be persuaded to to raise its output ? That is what the ELD ( electronic load detection ) is there for, to pass a message to alternator to pull its finger out when the load increases - if you increase the load and lights on Halfords indicator stay at two lights then it may be ELD or alternator at fault,  but if you increase the load and all four lights come on then it proves alternator is OK when it is told to charge so ELD may be at fault ( not kicking in at a low enough current ) = but at least you have proved something.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Jocko on September 18, 2019, 09:33:03 PM
In my experience an alternator works or it doesn't. Problem is usually brushes (very occasionally a diode). An alternator with an intermittent fault is not something I have experienced.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: culzean on September 19, 2019, 08:29:09 AM
In my experience an alternator works or it doesn't. Problem is usually brushes (very occasionally a diode). An alternator with an intermittent fault is not something I have experienced.

+1 

I have seen them in the past with one diode gone in the alternator which means output struggles to get much above 13.5 volts,  which is not enough to keep a battery charged in winter on short journeys - but that was not intermittent. Worryingly most garages had said the voltage was OK and changed the battery,  only for the new battery to gradually run down over a few weeks - people knew I had a decent voltmeter and a bit of knowledge and asked for help and that is what I found,  that was before the days of ELD etc.  The brushes run on sliprings and carry only the few amps excitation current for the rotor ( not the main  75 amps or so output which comes from stator ) so the brushes normally last for ever unless one sticks in holder and fails to contact slipring ( I know you already know this Jocko - just for benefit of others ).
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Jocko on September 19, 2019, 08:46:58 AM
I had the brushes wear out on my old SAAB 99, but only after 150,000 miles. Dealer had to order new ones, so for about 10 days I had to charge battery overnight, to get me through the day!
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: sparky Paul on September 19, 2019, 12:43:58 PM
I have had an intermittent fault on an alternator, but it's not common. Turned out to be a bad connection at the end of one of the rotor windings, stopped the alternator working as the engine bay warmed up, and soldering over the bad compression joint with the big iron fixed it. Most of these intermittant problems turn out to be a bad connection somewhere. It could be earth straps, connections to the alternator, or even a dry joint within the alternator or ELD unit.

Favourite failure is one of the rectifier diodes, as culzean says, and almost always results in a permanently dead alternator.

Other half had a Renault 5 where the brushes wore through the slip rings!

Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Sharon on September 19, 2019, 07:22:33 PM
Did you try putting headlights and other loads ( heated rear window ) on for a short time while driving to see if alternator can be persuaded to to raise its output ? That is what the ELD ( electronic load detection ) is there for, to pass a message to alternator to pull its finger out when the load increases - if you increase the load and lights on Halfords indicator stay at two lights then it may be ELD or alternator at fault,  but if you increase the load and all four lights come on then it proves alternator is OK when it is told to charge so ELD may be at fault ( not kicking in at a low enough current ) = but at least you have proved something.

Hi Culzean, ok, I did that test today, here is what happened

I set off without any of the extra load being on. The lights on the Halfords device, stayed, MAINLY on the first two only, but occasionally went to all lights on for a few seconds.   After about 20 mins of driving, I did the load test; turned all the heating on, AC, headlights, etc. At that point, ALL of the lights on the device did come on, and stay on. After around half an hour of that, I turned everything off, and we were back to the start -  mostly two lights on, but the occasional jump to all lights on. What do you make of that? ELD fault? What sort of cost will that be do you reckon?

Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Jocko on September 19, 2019, 08:21:40 PM
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-HONDA-ELD-ELECTRONIC-LOAD-DETECTOR-CIVIC-CRV-JAZZ-38255-S5A-003-/202068487124 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-HONDA-ELD-ELECTRONIC-LOAD-DETECTOR-CIVIC-CRV-JAZZ-38255-S5A-003-/202068487124)
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Sharon on September 19, 2019, 11:23:31 PM
Cheers, but I'm no mechanic! ???  These things easy to fit?
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: culzean on September 20, 2019, 09:47:38 AM
Cheers, but I'm no mechanic! ???  These things easy to fit?

It lives in the engine fusebox by the battery - more details and video in link below,  if you do get one I am sure the auto electrician will fit it in no time,  seems to clip over a short bussbar ....with one small plug to disconnect.

The ELD module fits over the bussbar and a little 'hall effect' electronic sensor detects current flow through bussbar,  be aware that unbolting bussbar will remove power from vehicle electric and you will need to reset clock etc. ( same as removing battery from car ).  There is a video in the thread linked to below showing the replacement of the ELD on a Honda Civic - won't be that different for Jazz.

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10222.msg60870#msg60870

it may be worth just checking the plug connections on the ELD are not corroded or dirty,  may be able to clean them by unplugging and plugging back in again, any dirt on the connection may degrade the signal to alternator so that it needs more current to get a sufficient signal to wake up the alternator.

Maybe it will be safer to drive around with headlights on and possibly heated rear window as well for a while,  at least it will keep battery charged.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: sparky Paul on September 21, 2019, 10:46:21 AM
it may be worth just checking the plug connections on the ELD are not corroded or dirty,  may be able to clean them by unplugging and plugging back in again, any dirt on the connection may degrade the signal to alternator so that it needs more current to get a sufficient signal to wake up the alternator.

That would be my first port of call too, check all the connectors, particularly the smaller ones around the ELD (engine fusebox) and the alternator.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Sharon on October 06, 2019, 04:01:12 PM
Hi all. Booked in for next week at a garage.

I have managed to keep the battery on a lowish charge, by putting on my headlights when I am driving. When I do this, all lights are on on the halfords gadget, showing that the battery is charging.

I tried to locate the 'ELD' but could not see it. It's not mentioned in the Haynes manual?

Anyway, when it goes into the garage, to try and give them a start on the issue, should I say its more than likely the ELD, based on my tests etc? I just dont want them throwing in a new alternator for luck.  :-X
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: Jocko on October 06, 2019, 04:30:16 PM
I would tell them the ELD is suspect, and why you suspect it.
Title: Re: Non Starter
Post by: culzean on October 06, 2019, 07:03:23 PM
Well if the alternator is capable of lighting up all four LED lights on the halfords gadget it is capable of charging the battery when it is instructed to do so by the ELD.  The ELD lives in the underbonnet fuse box, there are photos of it in previous thread I linked to earlier in thread....