Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 181085 times)

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1575 on: November 14, 2020, 06:23:24 PM »
Looks like people being forced into BEV despite the fact that they are very expensive compared to normal ICE or hybrid. Charging infrastructure and power supply in UK still not up to supplying BEV charging requirements and government dragging their feet on building a good reliable base load supply with nuclear.  They will end up building coal fired power station like Germany and China.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

madasafish

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1576 on: November 14, 2020, 06:44:38 PM »
Looks like people being forced into BEV despite the fact that they are very expensive compared to normal ICE or hybrid. Charging infrastructure and power supply in UK still not up to supplying BEV charging requirements and government dragging their feet on building a good reliable base load supply with nuclear.  They will end up building coal fired power station like Germany and China.

Err 

No
Why do you think Smart Meters are being installed?

Forget the marketing fluff.

It's so when demand exceeds supply ,they can switch consumers off.

(they have admitted it. Sort of)

springswood

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1577 on: November 15, 2020, 11:51:06 AM »
I got the impression new nuclear stations are not getting built because they're fundamentally uneconomic. Multi billion pound projects keep falling through. It seems no one wants to take the financial risk.

The economics of renewables is very different. Capital costs are low and running costs virtually zero. So overcapacity and storage is feasible.

I'm not sure exactly why but something about Honda's decision to pull out of F1 engine supply brought it home to me that internal combustion engines are an obsolete technology. I think we're in a position similar to steam in the early 20th century. Early ICE cars weren't that great an alternative to steam transport in many ways. And the infrastructure needed to supplant it dwarfs that for electric transport. A petrol engine is starting to feel like an absurdly complex and inefficient way to power a car.
"Indecision is a terrible thing"
Or is it? What do you think?

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1578 on: November 15, 2020, 12:35:07 PM »
This change from petrol/diesel will be another disaster.

How long will petrol/diesel still be available.

There are about 40 million cars curently so that's quite a few charging points needed to cater for even half that. Best of luck if you live and park along a long victorian terrace with no driveways.

It's a very good point - there sometimes seems to be an assumption that everybody has off road parking. I think what we will see, in time, is a bit of a mixed economy with a lot of charging at public charging stations being the norm for many people - this will be less onerous when range increases.

It will be interesting to see where we are in 5 years time.

sparky Paul

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1579 on: November 15, 2020, 12:49:48 PM »
Here's something different. What about metal powders for energy storage and a renewable/recyclable fuel?

https://newatlas.com/energy/bavarian-brewery-carbon-free-renewable-iron-fuel

JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1580 on: November 15, 2020, 01:02:14 PM »
I think we're in a position similar to steam in the early 20th century. Early ICE cars weren't that great an alternative to steam transport in many ways. And the infrastructure needed to supplant it dwarfs that for electric transport. A petrol engine is starting to feel like an absurdly complex and inefficient way to power a car.

Yep. Back to the drawing board. Electric motors at each corner
https://insideevs.com/features/427978/electric-car-design-inspired-skateboard/
https://thegreencarguy.com/selling-their-skateboard-platform-is-new-goal-of-some-ev-makers/

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1581 on: November 15, 2020, 01:59:32 PM »
Rolls Royce is talking about building 20 "local" nuclear power stations over the next few years. These are just modules that are built then delivered to site.

In future, I think the bulk of charging stations will be supermarket car parks. Every bay will be a charging point installed by the supermarket. Cost to the customer will be minimal (possibly even free). Much of the energy will be supplied by solar cells on the building roof with huge battery storage to maximise the use of the solar energy and to level out demand on the grid

JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1582 on: November 15, 2020, 02:24:18 PM »
Here's something different. What about metal powders for energy storage and a renewable/recyclable fuel?

https://newatlas.com/energy/bavarian-brewery-carbon-free-renewable-iron-fuel

Doesn't seem thermodynamically sound to me.
You get out the energy by combining the iron and the oxygen but if you want your iron back you've got to supply it with just as much energy (electrical) and then some.
If you don't reclaim the iron it means you are going to use up iron, which is a valuable raw material and could be put to better use.
Maybe I'm missing something.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 02:26:44 PM by JimSh »

sparky Paul

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1583 on: November 15, 2020, 02:37:37 PM »
You get out the energy by combining the iron and the oxygen but if you want your iron back you've got to supply it with just as much energy (electrical) and then some.

If you have a surplus of energy from renewables, it's a method of storing that energy in a stable medium than could even be transported in bulk to where it's required.

We are currently dumping wind energy when demand is low and generation high. Wind power is very cheap, but it costs the national grid enormous sums to force generators to stop producing - we should explore all possible storage methods if we are serious about reducing carbon emissions.

They seem to think the process is 80% efficient, which seems a reasonable start, and the oxidation of metals produces zero carbon.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 02:41:20 PM by sparky Paul »

JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1584 on: November 15, 2020, 02:54:51 PM »
You get out the energy by combining the iron and the oxygen but if you want your iron back you've got to supply it with just as much energy (electrical) and then some.

If you have a surplus of energy from renewables, it's a method of storing that energy in a stable medium than could even be transported in bulk to where it's required.

We are currently dumping wind energy when demand is low and generation high. Wind power is very cheap, but it costs the national grid enormous sums to force generators to stop producing - we should explore all possible storage methods if we are serious about reducing carbon emissions.

They seem to think the process is 80% efficient, which seems a reasonable start, and the oxidation of metals produces zero carbon.

I don't see that you can reduce the iron oxide to iron again without wasting vast amounts of energy.
At present iron oxide is reduced to iron by smelting using carbon as a reducing agent and resulting in massive pollution.
Aluminium oxide is reduced to aluminium electrically but it requires vast amounts of energy to melt the aluminium oxide as well as to electrolise the oxide.
Again it would be necessary to raise the iron oxide to a very high temperature to melt and  electrolyse it.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1585 on: November 15, 2020, 03:02:58 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something.
How I read it is, yes it needs as much or more energy to turn it back into iron, but as long as the electricity is wind/solar, and gathered when there is a surplus of wind/solar energy then you are carbon-free. Burning the iron powder is done when you need heat energy, and the conversion is done at a suitable time when wind/solar energy is available.
If you were using it for heating a house, you could burn the iron powder in winter and reconstitute it in summer possibly using solar energy.

JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1586 on: November 15, 2020, 03:06:44 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something.
How I read it is, yes it needs as much or more energy to turn it back into iron, but as long as the electricity is wind/solar, and gathered when there is a surplus of wind/solar energy then you are carbon-free. Burning the iron powder is done when you need heat energy, and the conversion is done at a suitable time when wind/solar energy is available.
If you were using it for heating a house, you could burn the iron powder in winter and reconstitute it in summer possibly using solar energy.
You are going to need a lot more energy to change the iron oxide to iron than you get by burning the iron
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10800-017-1143-5

sparky Paul

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1587 on: November 15, 2020, 03:17:15 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something.
How I read it is, yes it needs as much or more energy to turn it back into iron, but as long as the electricity is wind/solar, and gathered when there is a surplus of wind/solar energy then you are carbon-free. Burning the iron powder is done when you need heat energy, and the conversion is done at a suitable time when wind/solar energy is available.
If you were using it for heating a house, you could burn the iron powder in winter and reconstitute it in summer possibly using solar energy.

Exactly the point.

It's the same reason for converting surplus wind energy to hydrogen, instead of dumping - energy is consumed compressing the gas, but in periods of surplus, you would otherwise be effectively throwing the electricity away. Of course it costs energy to convert the electricity into fuel, but as the grid currently has to pay a penalty to disconnect wind farms from the grid, the electricity is effectively cheaper than free.

The big advantage with such materials is that they are stable for long periods and easily stored or transported.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1588 on: November 15, 2020, 03:18:20 PM »
But if it is available and going to waste otherwise, then it is win, win even if it takes ten times the energy.

JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1589 on: November 15, 2020, 03:25:17 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something.
How I read it is, yes it needs as much or more energy to turn it back into iron, but as long as the electricity is wind/solar, and gathered when there is a surplus of wind/solar energy then you are carbon-free. Burning the iron powder is done when you need heat energy, and the conversion is done at a suitable time when wind/solar energy is available.
If you were using it for heating a house, you could burn the iron powder in winter and reconstitute it in summer possibly using solar energy.

Exactly the point.

It's the same reason for converting surplus wind energy to hydrogen, instead of dumping - energy is consumed compressing the gas, but in periods of surplus, you would otherwise be effectively throwing the electricity away. Of course it costs energy to convert the electricity into fuel, but as the grid currently has to pay a penalty to disconnect wind farms from the grid, the electricity is effectively cheaper than free.

The big advantage with such materials is that they are stable for long periods and easily stored or transported.
That's true but how do you go about converting iron oxide to iron?   (Going the other way is easy)
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 03:33:19 PM by JimSh »

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