Stiff steering and reduced self centering

[DamFit]

Hi guys!

I've had some problems with my steering lately.
Some months back I did change the steering rack due to a notchy/sticking steering as I wrote about in this thread: https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=9447
That problem is now solved but another one has occurred.

Description of problem:
1. The steering wheel feels slightly heavier than it used to be. Not nearly as heavy as if I bypass the EPS, but noticeable heavier than before.

2. Self-centering of the front wheels is not working properly. If i turn left while driving and let go off the steering wheel it will stay in the same position and not go back to center. This also happens in when backing the car.

3. Took the car to a workshop and did a 4-wheels alignment (which I should have done anyway after a steering rack replacement), but this did not do any improvements on self-centering. They said the "travers" (I don't know the English word for that but in Norwegian it means to "to walk or wander") was mounted slightly off center when the steering rack was replaced. They moved it back in place, but nothing changed. Then they said the front wheels where heavy to turn and that something was binding. They suggested it could be the strut bearings or what I think is called "lower control arm balljoint"

4. There is no noticeable sounds telling me that something is binding. I've turned the wheels side to side on ice/snow without the engine running and could not hear any noise at all.

Things I've tried so far.
I jacked up the front of the car and tried to move the wheels side to side by hand and they where really heavy to turn. I don't know how heavy they're supposed to be, but i had to use both hands full strength. I noticed a strong creaking sound (not metal against metal, but more like rubber against rubber) when turning the wheels. It certainly came from the strut mount area and it was very loud. I could also feel vibrations in the springs with the same frequency as the noise.

Questions:
1. Are these noise normal when the car is jacked up. (they're not audible when the car is on the wheels). I'll post a video of this later.
2. Do you have any suggestion how to proceed to find out exactly what has to be done/replaced to fix this problem?
3. The problem occurred some time after i changed to winter tires so today I changed back to summer tires just to see if anything changed. The self-centering was a lot better, but it did not go all the way back to center. The steering wheel stopped at around 25 degrees. Just curious, how can this be explained..?

Hope some of you guys can fill in with some helpful tips on this problem:)

Cheers.

Edit:
My car is a 2005 Honda Fit GD1 1.4L with 175.000km

[guest5079]

Given that when you turn the wheels when off the ground and the sound appears to come from the strut with vibration from the springs suggests binding in either the top or bottom. The strut bearing at the top, I had one on a Citroen play up. When it was replaced all was well.  If you are in a position to put you hand over the bottom ball joint as you turn the wheel you might be able to feel any roughness. However with the ball joint, if the gaiter is sound and there is no play up and down or side to side it would probably rule the ball joint out.
I do not have a Mk1 but I seem to remember MK1 's have had problems with the strut bearing.
Unfortunately in these cases it is elimination of suspect parts. You have eliminated tracking problems.I have not heard of a shock absorber  causing your problem. That is unless the shaft is bent. Turning the front wheels with no power assistance is never easy because of overcoming resistance from the components of the steering
No doubt MK 1 owners will have some ideas.
Good luck in your quest.

[ColinS]

Steering geometry is not just tracking.  It consists of Camber, Caster, and Toe.  Incorrect Camber usually results in heavy steering.  Incorrect Caster will cause the steering not to self centre.  Toe is what is typically referred to as tracking and is the simplest and most frequent thing that is tested, for it is the thing that goes out of setting most often.

From what you describe, you may have a combination of faulty components and incorrect settings, probably Camber and Caster.

And the geometry changes significantly when the car is jacked up.  So other that looking for failed components, this is not a good test of freedom of movement.

[Jocko]

The equipment used by the likes of Kwik Fit and such check Castor, Camber, Tracking, front to rear alignment, etc, so if the checks were done at a proper facility, all that would be checked. Original post says it was a full 4 wheel alignment.

[ColinS]

The equipment used by the likes of Kwik Fit and such check Castor, Camber, Tracking, front to rear alignment, etc, so if the checks were done at a proper facility, all that would be checked. Original post says it was a full 4 wheel alignment.

Agreed Jocko.  I had my last car checked at Kwik Fit and was able to watch what they were doing on the screen.  They did a a very thorough job and would have picked up any play in joints while doing it from what I observed.  I'm just not convinced it was done in this case.

[sparky Paul]

From the symptoms the OP describes, it sounds more to me like a seized top bearing, or less likely a bottom ball joint. A seized top bearing or ball joint will certainly reduce the steering's tendency to centre.

With the weight off the suspension, the type of floating top mount employed on the Jazz will allow any rotation of a seized strut to move the rubber mount in the suspension turret, or the bearing in the rubber mount. That's probably the regular vibrations you can feel in the coilspring as the rubber jumps to relieve the tension.

With the weight on the suspension, the rubber top mount is held tight in the suspension turret, and the bearing has to turn - hence the squeaking.

You can usually prove that it's the top bearing by squirting some aerosol lubricant into the top bearing with a long nozzle, to see if it improves matters. It's a relatively straightforward job to replace the top bearing, but the shock absorber and coilspring assembly will have to be removed, and you will require a set of spring compressors.

[DamFit]

Thanks input so far!

Here's a dropbox link to a video i took to show you how it looks and sounds while turning the steering wheel with the car jacked up: https://www.dropbox.com/s/38gia8w58xffk4l/Honda%20Fit%20steering%20issue.MOV?dl=0

Regarding the alignment i got a report that says they corrected caster, camber and toe.
After the alignment the measurements are as follow:

Caster: 2°18' on front left and right.
Camber: 0°54' on front left and -0°06' on front right. -1°18' on rear left and -1°24' on rear right.
Toe: 0°03' on front left and right. 0°18' on rear left and 0°00' on rear right.

Does this look reasonable?

I did check for up/down side to side movement on each wheel and they seemed to be tight with no slack in any direction.

If the alignment looks ok, i guess i have to start with the strut bearings.
In this video it looks like they replace the strut mount without compressing the spring, but the strut bearing is maybe another part that will require the spring to be compressed before replaced?

This is my first car and I feel I'm learning a lot (and saving a lot of money!) by trying to do as much work as possible by myself. I did change the alternator recently and I'm wondering -  would you think that replacing the strut bearings is  more difficult than this operation?

All the best,

[sparky Paul]

Here's a dropbox link to a video i took to show you how it looks and sounds while turning the steering wheel with the car jacked up: https://www.dropbox.com/s/38gia8w58xffk4l/Honda%20Fit%20steering%20issue.MOV?dl=0

I would say that sounds like the rubber mount twisting in the suspension turret. I would suspect the top bearing is seized. To check the bearing properly, ideally you need to remove the strut.

Alternatively, you could just pull the rubber mount away from the suspension turret enough so you can feel the bearing. Remove the top mount retainer in the engine bay, the part like an inverted top hat with a rubber surround, then jack up and remove the wheel. Bar the suspension down, you should be able to free the rubber mount at the top of the strut, it sits directly onto the strut bearing. You should then be able to spin the bearing and top mount, it should rotate freely and smoothly.

Regarding the alignment i got a report that says they corrected caster, camber and toe.
After the alignment the measurements are as follow:

Caster: 2°18' on front left and right.
Camber: 0°54' on front left and -0°06' on front right. -1°18' on rear left and -1°24' on rear right.
Toe: 0°03' on front left and right. 0°18' on rear left and 0°00' on rear right.

Does this look reasonable?

Everything is within spec, and the target for front toe is zero, so that's about spot on. Front left camber is only just within spec - if you were picky, you could probably correct that on the play in the strut to hub carrier bolts.

If the alignment looks ok, i guess i have to start with the strut bearings.
In this video it looks like they replace the strut mount without compressing the spring, but the strut bearing is maybe another part that will require the spring to be compressed before replaced?

Correct. The bit they are changing is the top mount, the bearing is attached to the top of the strut, between the nut and the top spring seat.

This is my first car and I feel I'm learning a lot (and saving a lot of money!) by trying to do as much work as possible by myself. I did change the alternator recently and I'm wondering -  would you think that replacing the strut bearings is  more difficult than this operation?

It's not difficult, but you will need access to a vice and a set of spring compressors. It's not impossible to do, but I would say it's more involved than changing an alternator. It also helps if you have an idea what you are doing with spring compressors, do a bit of research or better still, get someone to show you how to go on with them - a compressed spring can get nasty if something goes wrong.

An alternative would be to remove the strut, and find a friendly garage who will change the bearing for you for a bit of beer money. They can do it in a couple of minutes with a pneumatic spring compressor.

[guest7619]

I had stiff steering and reduced self centering.
I had a wheel alignment check done and was told the alignment was fine.

I actually drove with it for a few months since a mechanic told me 1.2 jazzes  are just like that.
I moved recently and a local garage replaced collapsed bushes somewhere in the front suspension.
It helped a lot. I could look up the invoice from that service and see if it says which bit's specifically.

[DamFit]

Hi again guys! And thanks for all the great input on my problem. I just damaged my shoulder and need to undergo some surgery so I won't be able to do this repair within the near future.

I think I'll order new strut bearings online and take the car to a garage. Any manufactures you would/would not recommend to get them from?

Cheers

[sparky Paul]

Avoid brands you've never heard of, or anything unbranded. For aftermarket parts, I prefer Delphi, but many known branded parts are fine. Blueprint are also excellent for Japanese cars, often supplying OEM parts.

Motor factor brands like Firstline (they now also own and use the Borg & Beck name) are often cheap, but it's a bit of pot luck with the parts you get - some are fine, some stuff is poorly finished and cheap looking. I always prefer Delphi if I can get them.

Lemforder are particularly good for suspension bushes, and SKF, FAG, Timken, NTN for bearings.

I would also avoid Febi Bilstein. I fitted Febi top bearing and bush kits to my last Ford Galaxy as a precautionary measure when I changed the shock absorbers... all that work, and the bushes collapsed within 6 months. Utter junk.