Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Diagnostics, Tuning, Modifications and Maintenance - all Hondas => Car Care & Detailing => Topic started by: peteo48 on November 11, 2018, 08:02:53 PM
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I like a clean car - I wash mine about every 2 or 3 weeks (it doesn't get that dirty in that time) and I am one of that rare breed that will polish and wax on occasions.
Partly inspired by a comment Culzean made on another thread about "esoteric" and "arcane" cleaning rituals, I find myself wondering if the whole car care thing hasn't got a bit out of hand. In days of yore you still had immaculate looking cars and these were, typically, washed with a dash of Fairy Liquid in a bucket using a sponge. The car was then rinsed off and dried with a chamois leather. About once or twice a year the car was "simonized" which meant applying a hard wax to the car and buffing it off. This gave protection. If the paint got dull you would use simonize cleaner, an abrasive polish that actually removed a bit of paint - you could tell by the colour coming out on your rag. Incidentally they were rags - old vests cut into squares or worn out terry towels.
Move forward and we have a situation where cars have clear coats - a hard laquer that protects the paint. They are more durable than ever. However new rituals have emerged and new warnings about deviating from them.
1) You must use 2 buckets - one for car shampoo and one for rinsing each with a grit guard. If you use Fairy Liquid your paint will peel off immediately. If you only use one bucket you may as well sandpaper your car with coarse grade emery paper.
2) You must also "pre-wash" the car with foam and allow this to loosen the dirt before actually washing it with a sheepskin mitt and drying it with a soft microfibre towel.
3) Every so often you must decontaminate your car using a piece of clay. This is seen as essential but what did we do before this was invented?
4) You should avoid cheap products like Simonize and Turtle Wax. If you really care about your car you'll spend at least 50 quid on a jar of wax.
It's confession time - I've succumbed to some of these "esoteric" and "arcane" rituals but I wonder if the whole detailing scene isn't a device to separate me from my money.
Any views?
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I am old enough to recall the old days:
I recall the routine went:
Bucket cold water with Fairey liquid. Wash roof with sponge. Dry roof with chamois.. and work down.
And after 4 years the car was a mass of rust - see Austin A35, BMC 1100, Ford Cortinas, Escorts, Rovers etc, Every 2-3 weeks depending in how dirty .. and how enthusiastic I felt
My current routine:
Hose under wheelarches to remove mud#, hose rest of car to remove mud, Bucket with vinegar and washnwax, wash rood with microfibre mitt. Dry roof with chamois.. and work down.
After 12 years minimal rust.
Every 2-3 weeks depending in how dirty .. and how enthusiastic I feel.
# Local country roads (beekeeping) have tractors and lots of mud.
Don't wax car more than once every 2-3 years..For nerds only :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Anything more is a waste of time.(Due to mud!)
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I am old enough to recall the old days:
I recall the routine went:
Bucket cold water with Fairey liquid. Wash roof with sponge. Dry roof with chamois.. and work down.
And after 4 years the car was a mass of rust - see Austin A35, BMC 1100, Ford Cortinas, Escorts, Rovers etc, Every 2-3 weeks depending in how dirty .. and how enthusiastic I felt
Those cars would rust away in a few years whatever TLC you gave them - they did not have zinc coated body panels and seam sealer... modern cars are so much better, many do not show any corrosion till at least 15 to 20 years old.
Remember the feminist book a few decades ago 'life is too short to stuff a mushroom' - well the mans version was 'life is too short to keep detailing your car'
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My usual routine is still the same as it was in the old days, when I can be bothered...
1. Blast lumps off with hosepipe, blast under wheelarches with same
2. Bucket of warm water with cheap wash'n'wax, wash roof then rinse with hosepipe. Repeat for all panels until car washed.
3. Ignore streaks.
4. Wash wheels with what's left in bucket.
5. Final rinse down.
6. Put everything away and retire.
When it goes rusty, mend it. If it's beyond help, scrap it and get another.
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I no longer clean my car myself. I take it to a local East European car cleaning emporium where they do an excellent job including round the door frames. In the winter for a small consideration they will wash the wheel arches and under the car.
I still clean the inside regularly, vacuum the floor and upholstery and, of course, clean the windows inside.
I stopped polishing cars years ago, I consider it a waste of money and energy.
My car looks fine.
Vic.
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I no longer clean my car myself. I take it to a local East European car cleaning emporium where they do an excellent job including round the door frames. In the winter for a small consideration they will wash the wheel arches and under the car.
I still clean the inside regularly, vacuum the floor and upholstery and, of course, clean the windows inside.
I stopped polishing cars years ago, I consider it a waste of money and energy.
My car looks fine.
Vic.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/24/uk-to-investigate-use-of-modern-day-slaves-hand-washing-cars.html
Also car cleaning products contaminate waterways - they cannot be removed from waste water.
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I no longer clean my car myself. I take it to a local East European car cleaning emporium where they do an excellent job including round the door frames. In the winter for a small consideration they will wash the wheel arches and under the car.
I still clean the inside regularly, vacuum the floor and upholstery and, of course, clean the windows inside.
I stopped polishing cars years ago, I consider it a waste of money and energy.
My car looks fine.
Vic.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/24/uk-to-investigate-use-of-modern-day-slaves-hand-washing-cars.html
Also car cleaning products contaminate waterways - they cannot be removed from waste water.
I think it can be a dodgy business. I have a friend who works as a consultant to companies about the use of modern day slavery in their supply chains and the pop up car washes are notorious. They are not all bad though but how do you find out?
I gather the Tesco ones do actually have themselves plumbed into the foul sewers as opposed to storm drains. Storm drains seem to be the real problem as the water isn't treated on it's way to rivers etc.
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When you wash your car in the road or on your drive where does the waste water go?
Our local authorities appear to be doing nothing about the possible contamination of water courses by these car washing places, neither do the police appear to be investigating the use of slave labour or at least not finding any.
Quite sophisticated washing plants are springing up on large shopping complexes apparently without any threat of investigation.
Vic.
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When you wash your car in the road or on your drive where does the waste water go?
Our local authorities appear to be doing nothing about the possible contamination of water courses by these car washing places, neither do the police appear to be investigating the use of slave labour or at least not finding any.
Quite sophisticated washing plants are springing up on large shopping complexes apparently without any threat of investigation.
Vic.
Simple, car gets washed about once every blue moon, the beauty of the diamondbrite coating applied when we bought the cars makes washing pretty much unnecessary, every time it rains you get a shiny car. I do hose out under the wheel arches etc in winter to get rid of salty mud, but thousands of tons of that goes down UK drains every winter anyway. Technology helping to save the rivers. Just imagine a salmon trying to find its way back to its home river and being confused by smell of car shampoo..
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This topic was a bad idea as soon as it was posted. Not because of Pete, of course, nor the subject an sich. But talking about car cleaning is opening a can of worms and soon not going about the subject anymore, but against it. The car detailing section on this forum is a magnet for trolling. A shame, yes!
So, it wasn’t my intention to reply on Pete’s original post because of that. But as expected it soon went off topic and then i had to... ... imagine a salmon trying to find its way back to its home river and being confused by smell of car shampoo..
Pesticides (chemicals that kill insects) applied to farmland enter surface water and groundwater, often in large quantities.
Air pollution can make its way into rivers, lakes and streams. Some fall from the sky as dry particles. Other air pollutants are carried to the ground in raindrops, snowflakes, or fog. They not only harm water, but also the plant and animal life that depend on water to survive.
Rivers, streams and drinking water supplies are contaminated by synthetic hormones from contraceptive pills. More than 2.5 million women take birth control pills in the UK. Their EE2 content is excreted and washed into sewage systems and rivers. Even at very low concentrations, this chemical has proven harmful effects on fish.
The Typical Tap Water Content in the UK (and in the most part of the modern world) contains:
Chlorine
Fluorine compounds
Trihalomethanes (THMs)
Salts of:
arsenic
radium
aluminium
copper
lead
mercury
cadmium
barium
Hormones
Nitrates
Pesticides
Which cleaning detergents, laundry cleaners, softeners, shampoo, all purpose cleaners, fairy liquids, algae- and other outside cleaners do you all use in and around your house (not your car) and on yourself? All natural, eco-friendly? Do you eat biological, produced or grown close to your home as much as possible? What other chemicals do you use, eat, drink, food, medicine and end up in the water system and is NOT filtered out?
No? Then don’t go over the people who like to wash their car once or twice a month!! The smell of a car shampoo is the less the salmon has to worry about...
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So you are not willing to accept any opinion that disagrees with yours - (no matter how light hearted, salmon smelling shampoo etc) - sound like a liberal / democrat to me. Forums exist for discussion, opinions, shared experience and information - not simply affirmation, and threads often meander around a bit. Many of those compounds you mention exist naturally in water, any that are there to protect the food we eat are welcome. Modern sewage treatment ( but not storm water / street drains) can remove pollutants down to microscopic levels, including hormones, unfortunately stuff that goes down street drains is not normally properly treated.
Modern slavery does come into car detailing as it normally uses illegally trafficked people who are then treated as slaves in the very country they came to for a better life ( pity they did not choose to come via the legal route), does not affect you if you do your own cleaning and polishing, but an awful lot of people don't give a second thought to who cleans their car and why it only costs £5 or £10. I guess this affects pretty much every western country.
No I don't eat organic food ( which is a good idea if you can afford it, but it would be impossible to feed the exploding world population with organic food - the insects and fungi would get most of it ), I do try to use biodegradable things whenever possible and save water (fresh water is the scarcest thing on our planet).
PS - I am not a troll ( LOL )
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Hope I haven't opened too big a can of worms! I'm a bit sad in many ways - I love watching car restoration programmes like Wheeler Dealers and Car SOS. I also watch a lot of YouTube videos of car detailing because of my somewhat OCD interest in keep the car clean. I think this arose from the fact that my Dad, when he became UK Sales Director for an industrial lighting company, got a Mk2 Jag (Inspector Morse). It was always important for him to arrive at meetings in a clean car so I got generous pocket money to wash the Jag every week and a bonus for "simonizing" it every 6 months. I actually loved doing it and found it quite therapeutic.
Over the years I have kept my cars in decent condition. Go back 25 years or so and I'd use Fairy Liquid heavily diluted. It was thought to be gentler than other dishwash soaps. A watering can to wet the car, sponge starting from the roof down, rinse then dry with a chamois leather. I'd use Turtle Wax about 2 or 3 times a year. Every so often I'd get the hose attached to the kitchen sink tap and run it through the house to the front door (much to my wife's disgust) to hose out the underside to get rid of salt etc. My car was usually the cleanest and shiniest on the block.
Over the years I've adopted new routines but then I started wondering if this was all going a bit far. My shed is full of spray bottles, microfibre towels, tins of wax and so on and I was buying products just to try them out.
Then I started thinking - "is this all a bit over the top" - in addition some detailers disagree with each other. On the 2 bucket method somebody said that you will always be rubbing against dirt so the fact that a tiny bit of extra dirt gets picked up in the bucket won't make that much different. A more recent video attacks the fashion for PH neutral shampoos because they don't clean enough.
So I've decided to simplify my routine a bit and get the wife off my back for all the detailing clutter I've got in the shed (I have 25 microfibre towels, 3 different car shampoos, 3 different car waxes and sealants, 3 buckets, 3 detailing brushes, 3 different quick detail sprays, Autoglym Aqua Wax and I am only scratching the surface!
I suppose my general point is that it's a lucrative market and, like a lot of the best marketing campaigns, taps into fear - if I don't use this lotion my skin will wrinkle, if I don't use this car shampoo my car will rust away to nothing.
Told you I was sad. On run off - get some Optimum No Rinse, great stuff, no run off and bio degradable!
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A admire anyone who is prepared (or who has the time) to spend cleaning and detailing their car, the brother in law is absolutely meticulous with his, inside and out. Some of the results look fantastic. However, for me, I can't be arsed. If the car get washed more than once a year, it's only because you can't see what colour the car is anymore.
However, that does not preclude me from contributing to any thread I please, just because it's not going with the flow. We don't start threads like this for an echo chamber, it's to hear everyone's opinions, and sometimes maybe learn something we didn't know.
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A admire anyone who is prepared (or who has the time) to spend cleaning and detailing their car, the brother in law is absolutely meticulous with his, inside and out. Some of the results look fantastic. However, for me, I can't be arsed. If the car get washed more than once a year, it's only because you can't see what colour the car is anymore.
However, that does not preclude me from contributing to any thread I please, just because it's not going with the flow. We don't start threads like this for an echo chamber, it's to hear everyone's opinions, and sometimes maybe learn something we didn't know.
+1
Our next door neighbours lad during his late teens and early 20's ( married so moved out now ) would shampoo and chamois his car pretty much every day and the street gutter ran with white froth ( if it was bad weather he cleaned the car in the garage) he even took number plates and wheels off very frequently to clean them and under the bonnet was clean enough for an operating theatre. To me that level of cleaning was definitely verging on a mental illness, but his dad is a frequent ( couple of times a week ) car cleaner as well, so maybe it is genetic.
Never saw the car cleaning son trying to fix or repair his cars though, just clean them, so interested in appearance rather than functionality.
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I may be OK ;D - every 2 weeks at most for my car washing. One of the more respected detailing websites, PolishedBliss, point out that excessive washing is as bad as no washing as your car is subject to more abrasion. They recommend no more than once a week.
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One of the more respected detailing websites, PolishedBliss, point out that excessive washing is as bad as no washing as your car is subject to more abrasion. They recommend no more than once a week.
A friend of mine is a retired panel beater and sprayer, old school. Over the years, he's repainted a number of cars where the paint and/or lacquer had been polished through, right through to the primer.
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Yes - some of the more extreme detailing aficionados are heavily into machine polishing to remove swirl marks. They often use a device to measure the thickness of the paint and, more importantly, top coat but the process can be quite aggressive as it involves removal of a small layer of clear coat.
I guess this is why the handbook recommends regular waxing but polish only if the coat is losing its shine.
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I recognize most parts of the old way methods described by peteo48 in first post. No way of getting the garden hose, just one bucket of water for washing the car from roof to sills and wheels and then another for rinsing. Drying with chamois only in warm summer time. Although in my family history we never used Fairy but Esso wash&wax small pillow-like single portion packs.
I like to drive with a clean car, but very seldomly wash it myself. I'm using a local carwash once every month or so. I'd even use the automatic car washing lines if they cleaned the door frames. For me the car isn't properly washed if I get the trouser legs dirty from the sill. ;D
But when I do wash my car myself, my method is semi old fashioned too. First using hose to get rid of mud from sides, sills and wheelarches, then washing with one bucket of warm water with some basic wash&wax using brush or mitt, and rinse with hose. Then another bucket of warm water for cleaning door, hatch and bonnet frames with a rag. Drying with chamois only if it's sunny.
All that takes easily more than an hour. If I'd take the pressure washer, it'd be half an hour more. A professional carwash does it in 20 minutes or so. Only if I'd have to drive to town and back just for getting the car washed, it'd save time to wash myself. But combining it to daily commuting (when the lockdown is over) or other needs to go to town, paying for a carwash is solely saving my precious spare time. ::)
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Recently I have been using the car wash, but in beautiful weather, I like to wash the car myself. I use two buckets, one with Dodo Juice Low On Eau Rinseless Wash and the second with clean water. I wash a panel with the wash, using a wash mitt, then rinse the mitt in the freshwater. I dry the panel with a Microfibre Drying Towel. I continue like this until the car is washed. I then polish using Bilt Hamber Double Speed-Wax.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00STO168Y/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00STO168Y/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B075BFRTGQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B075BFRTGQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0030B9U6Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0030B9U6Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00TKBOE3Y/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00TKBOE3Y/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
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I am a convert to Karcher. Blast off loose dirt then foamed car shampoo then bast off foam then chamois wipe down. Twice a year (spring and autumn) I also do a wax and buff. I have never done a polish but perhaps one day.
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This topic was a bad idea as soon as it was posted. Not because of Pete, of course, nor the subject an sich. But talking about car cleaning is opening a can of worms and soon not going about the subject anymore, but against it. The car detailing section on this forum is a magnet for trolling. A shame, yes!
So, it wasn’t my intention to reply on Pete’s original post because of that. But as expected it soon went off topic and then i had to... ... imagine a salmon trying to find its way back to its home river and being confused by smell of car shampoo..
Pesticides (chemicals that kill insects) applied to farmland enter surface water and groundwater, often in large quantities.
Air pollution can make its way into rivers, lakes and streams. Some fall from the sky as dry particles. Other air pollutants are carried to the ground in raindrops, snowflakes, or fog. They not only harm water, but also the plant and animal life that depend on water to survive.
Rivers, streams and drinking water supplies are contaminated by synthetic hormones from contraceptive pills. More than 2.5 million women take birth control pills in the UK. Their EE2 content is excreted and washed into sewage systems and rivers. Even at very low concentrations, this chemical has proven harmful effects on fish.
The Typical Tap Water Content in the UK (and in the most part of the modern world) contains:
Chlorine
Fluorine compounds
Trihalomethanes (THMs)
Salts of:
arsenic
radium
aluminium
copper
lead
mercury
cadmium
barium
Hormones
Nitrates
Pesticides
Which cleaning detergents, laundry cleaners, softeners, shampoo, all purpose cleaners, fairy liquids, algae- and other outside cleaners do you all use in and around your house (not your car) and on yourself? All natural, eco-friendly? Do you eat biological, produced or grown close to your home as much as possible? What other chemicals do you use, eat, drink, food, medicine and end up in the water system and is NOT filtered out?
No? Then don’t go over the people who like to wash their car once or twice a month!! The smell of a car shampoo is the less the salmon has to worry about...
Spot on well said.
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Always clean the car in the rain, simple.
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Always clean the car in the rain, simple.
Better still, watch the rain washing the muck off the car from the comfortable side of the living room window.
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Always clean the car in the rain, simple.
Better still, watch the rain washing the muck off the car from the comfortable side of the living room window.
+1
Having a car that is too immaculate is a recipe for getting the sides 'keyed' in a lot of places - they seem to attract the scrotes, as my nephew found out the other day.
Looks as though the dealer applied 'Diamond coat' sealer or whatever it is called has done the trick, for the first 5 years we had the Jazz mk2 and Civic never waxed ( maybe just rinsed down a couple of times a year with a brush on a garden hose with a shampoo stick in it - and after winter to get salt off ) and the rain bought them up lovely. About a year ago tried Autoglym Super resin Polish ( had actually bought it to clean up PVCu windows and doors - does a great job, easy if you keep on top of them and do them once every year ) but thought I would try it on the cars, just hosed down, dried by nature overnight and then polished both in a couple of hours next day. Just done the same this year ( second time they have been waxed since we got them ) - I have to say I am really bored though, and have done all jobs in house and garden ( including autoglyming all the doors - including garage door, window frames and PVC facias ) - done everything on motorbike including changing fork oil.
May be able to play golf next week ( may have to evict some spiders out of golf bag) - so can do it with a clear conscience. Now that people can play golf again that is sure to bring the rain the farmers and gardeners want.
Edit - just added a couple of photographs of cars a week after a quick swill with a hose and one coat of Autoglym super resin polish - the Pearl orchid white Jazz never shows its shine as well as the Civic ( Urban Titanium - can you believe it is 'Silver' in logbook, queried it with dealer and they said that was OK ) which always looks OK despite hardly getting cleaned - probably won't get cleaned again this year. We had a sprinkle of rain a few days ago that was just enough to coat cars with Sahara dust.
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In the handbook for the Jazz it recommends "dusting" the car.
Why not use sandpaper instead!
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Here is how I used to clean my car. A young, slim Jocko, early 70s. Car is a 1956 Ford Prefect 100E 1172 cc.
(https://i.imgur.com/XMqdpY5.jpg)
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Great shot!
Side valve engine?
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Great shot!
Side valve engine?
And Vacuum windscreen wipers,We had one as well thought we were the bees knees, happy day# nonetheless,
Thanks Jocko For reviving many happy memories,At that time I was attached to Porton Down in Wiltshire, my to be wife was An Army Nurse we married in 1958 and still are, smashing girl then and still is.
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Side valve engine?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/Side_valve_engine_with_Ricardo%27s_turbulent_head_02.png/1200px-Side_valve_engine_with_Ricardo%27s_turbulent_head_02.png)
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Here is how I used to clean my car. A young, slim Jocko, early 70s. Car is a 1956 Ford Prefect 100E 1172 cc.
Splendid. Both the car and the hair ;)
Had they done away with convection cooling by then?
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I may be OK ;D - every 2 weeks at most for my car washing. One of the more respected detailing websites, PolishedBliss, point out that excessive washing is as bad as no washing as your car is subject to more abrasion. They recommend no more than once a week.
Oh wow, wish I was motivated enough to clean my car like that :) My OCD oscillates more around maintenance and upkeep of moving, serviceable parts, corrosion prevention etc.
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Had they done away with convection cooling by then?
Yes and no. They fitted a water pump in 1953 but the tall radiator and steep angle of top hose were still evident.
(https://i.imgur.com/NvaKYQy.jpg)
I did away with the vacuum operated wipers and fitted a mini wiper motor using a Heath Robinson contraption. Removing the vacuum reservoir allowed me to fit the screenwash reservoir.
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My routine is simple.
Go round to the Albanians/Romanians who do a brilliant job of washing my Jazz. First pressure rinsed, then using a mit they soap it all over, then rinse and finally spray with a wax type mixture and rinse down. Dried with chamois leather. Vacuum out the inside and shine all the glass, clean the carpets and blacken the tyres. £12, no effort from me and fifteen minutes of my retired day. Sorted.
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That has been my routine for the past couple of years, but all the hand carwash places are closed here at this time.
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My routine is simple.
Go round to the Albanians/Romanians who do a brilliant job of washing my Jazz. First pressure rinsed, then using a mit they soap it all over, then rinse and finally spray with a wax type mixture and rinse down. Dried with chamois leather. Vacuum out the inside and shine all the glass, clean the carpets and blacken the tyres. £12, no effort from me and fifteen minutes of my retired day. Sorted.
Whilst I still enjoy cleaning the car from time to time, there is nothing wrong with a decent hand car wash. I've had mine done at Tesco having watched them do cars. Jet wash at first, thorough soaping, thorough rinse and dry with a microfibre. They even have buckets to toss cloths in that they have dropped on the ground.
I treated myself once to the "Gold" valet. I had a £5 off voucher and the car was filthy after a trip to Scotland last year. I genuinely don't think I could have done a better job myself - even the air vents had been cleaned.
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Which? has produced a guide on how to not wash a car https://www.which.co.uk/news/2020/05/six-mistakes-to-avoid-when-washing-your-car/ .