Author Topic: FUEL  (Read 3605 times)

Westy36

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Re: FUEL
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2021, 11:09:18 AM »
I have long believed that the days of 'running in' an engine are behind us. I was advised back in the '80s just to take it easy for the first 250 miles until all the fluids have been 'splashed about a bit' and then you're good to go.
You may be correct. Other than my new Suzuki, ever other car or bike I've owned has already gone way past its running in period. For example, MK2 Cavalier has 180,000 miles on the clock when I bought it!

Jocko

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Re: FUEL
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2021, 11:13:41 AM »
Owner's manual doesn't advise running in.

culzean

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Re: FUEL
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2021, 11:29:58 AM »
I have long believed that the days of 'running in' an engine are behind us. I was advised back in the '80s just to take it easy for the first 250 miles until all the fluids have been 'splashed about a bit' and then you're good to go.
You may be correct. Other than my new Suzuki, ever other car or bike I've owned has already gone way past its running in period. For example, MK2 Cavalier has 180,000 miles on the clock when I bought it!

My new Suzuki motorbike said 'do not exceed 5000 revs** for first 750 miles'  red line is at 11,000 ( and that has no cylinder liners, it has a ceramic coating straight onto aluminium bore ) - I always think that it pays to at least take things easy for first 1000 miles, and they still advise not to use straight synthetic until after first oil change ( 2000 miles ) because it is 'too good' and does not allow parts to bed in. 

**Even 5000 revs would get you a speeding ticket though  :o
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

embee

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Re: FUEL
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2021, 01:00:00 PM »
FWIW I can relate what my experience has been from 35+ years in the engine industry.
I cannot think of any serial engine manufacturer which uses anything other than a regular service spec oil as initial factory fill.
For development work we always carried out a "break-in" procedure, the details depended on the manufacturer but all were of a similar concept. Start at low speeds and light loads for maybe 15mins to warm up thoroughly (and allowing checks of system functions etc), then up to perhaps 1/4 speed light load, and gradually ramp the load up to perhaps 1/4 load (BMEP) over maybe 15mins, hold for maybe 15mins. Reduce to light load and increase speed (maybe 1/2 max rpm), hold, ramp up load to 1/4, return to lower speed and ramp up load to 1/2, return to mid speed and ramp up load to 1/2, reduce load and increase speed to 3/4 etc etc.
It is usually this sort of sawtooth type sequence, gradually and progressively increasing the speeds and ramping up loads until you reach max power speed and load after a few hours. It would then be held at Pmax for perhaps 15mins. The whole process is typically 10hrs, sometimes a little less.
 At the initial stages the speed is the critical parameter, load is not so important to begin with. The break-in is principally for the "piston/bore interface", i.e. bore, rings, skirt. The bore surface technology is sophisticated these days, the preparation in manufacture to achieve the optimum bearing area ratio (running surface area vs oil retention volume) is very carefully engineered. However good the processes, there is always an "excess roughness" which is derived to achieve a controlled wear process between the rings and bores to optimise the running conditions after a short bedding-in time. The peaks of the material surfaces will project through the oil film and will be worn away, the risk initially is that with high pressure contact at these peaks the friction can result in micro-welding and tearing of the surfaces, which does not subsequently "heal". It will polish over, but it doesn't give the optimum surface. The idea is to achieve a running surface between Mr1 and Mr2 on the picture below to maximise service life with an optimised oil retention volume. The Rpk is the height of the peaks (asperities) which are worn off during a break-in to get down to the straight line part of the diagram.
This is the sort of thing https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:820446/FULLTEXT01.pdf



Engines are engineered to be "tolerant" of abuse but this doesn't necessarily result in the optimum conditions for maximum service life. There is usually a piston scuff test where an engine will be built with minimum bore clearances, it will get the minimum build process running (often 2mins) then will be taken directly to max power. This will be the worst case scenario and it must be able to survive it.

Car manufacturers don't specify any process because it can cause confusion and dispute, so they engineer the product to tolerate the worst and hopefully be treated well. Usually new owners will drive a car more or less reasonably anyway. If you get a new engine the best thing is to use the engine progressively, the rpm being the most important. Start using modest speeds, increase load a bit, then work up the combinations of speeds and loads. On the road I would suggest 20hrs or 500mls is ideal to get to the point where you are using full throttle and near max revs on regular occasions, you don't do the engine any favours by being too gentle at this stage, they are made to run at max power and you will not harm it.

There is some degree of truth in the "Italian tune-up" theory, the worst possible conditions are when an engine is used for repeated low speed short runs, 2mls to the shops once a week. Valve rotation (to even out wear and sealing) usually starts around 2500-3000rpm, and I always try to give an engine a short time at 3k or more (once fully warm) especially if I've been driving in traffic at low speeds a lot.

John Ratsey

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Re: FUEL
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2021, 05:42:53 PM »
Owner's manual doesn't advise running in.
But this doesn't exclude performance limits being programmed into the ECU with these limits being progressively relaxed as the miles are accrued - people often sense that the engine runs better after a few throusand miles.
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Jocko

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Re: FUEL
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2021, 05:58:06 PM »
people often sense that the engine runs better after a few throusand miles.
I wouldn't know. I have never owned a car less than 3 years old.

sparky Paul

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Re: FUEL
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2021, 06:03:48 PM »
But this doesn't exclude performance limits being programmed into the ECU with these limits being progressively relaxed as the miles are accrued

I suppose that could be done, but unlikely I would have thought. The mk1 ECU doesnt have any access to the mileage anyway - unlike some other car ECUs which keep a secondary register as an anti-clocking measure.

Westy36

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Re: FUEL
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2021, 07:22:55 PM »
@embee - Great post! Very informative, thank you.  :D

unlike some other car ECUs which keep a secondary register as an anti-clocking measure.
This is very true. Modern complex machinery have many ECUs that all store the mileage. I heard of a case recently where a Mercedes W205 was back to the dealers for a software update on its hugely complex sat nav command device. The dealer was unable to complete the update due to one of the ECUs have a different mileage reading logged in it. Head office was involved and it got sorted, but just imagine trying to deal with something like that when the car is well used. I expect it will be beyond economical repair if more than a headlight bulb goes at 10+yrs old.

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