Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: bill888 on February 22, 2021, 11:36:22 AM
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I'm looking to replace the front brake discs, and looking for any advice or tips on what extra tools I may need to buy to undo the 17mm caliper carrier bolts. The bolts haven't been touched in 13 years and there is usual surface rust from UK weathering. Google search indicates they are tightened to 80 lb ft (110 Nm), same as wheel nuts, at the factory, but they will need far more to undo the rusty bolts imho.
Will I have to resort to using a dirty great long breaker bar like in this video?
https://youtu.be/Xqv9ZlEyi_8 (https://youtu.be/Xqv9ZlEyi_8)
I don't have access to any air powered tools.
Longest wrench I possess is 16" torque wrench. I did briefly try hammering the end of a 9" fixed bar ('T' bar?) handle attached to a 17mm socket with a wooden mallet, but all it did was 'bounce'.
Thanks in advance.
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Plenty of plusgas leave overnight try again then if still stuck more plusgas allow to dry off apply heat. Plusgas is flammable.
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Use this style of socket.
(https://www.heamar.co.uk/35174-home_default/stahlwille-5010036-3-4-x-36mm-hex-socket.jpg)
Not this kind.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SjveXa5IupI/TmHeYdb04yI/AAAAAAAAANo/U7EE7w7oPKo/s320/Bi%2BHexagon%2BSocket.JPG)
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They'll be a lot harder to shift than wheel nuts if they haven't been off for a long time. You can sometimes shift them with a ½" ratchet and a bit of humpty, but a 2ft breaker bar makes it easy if they're stubborn. Watch your knuckles if you try with the ratchet.
Pipe on a t-bar handle may also get you out of a hole, if you don't have any particular affection for your t-bar.
+1 for 6 point sockets. At least Honda fit real hex bolts, and not external torx or splined bolts as some manufacturers fit.
Breaker bar is a handy tool for carriers, and essential for driveshaft/hub nuts and subframe bolts.
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Thanks for all the suggestions so far. Earlier, I was trying to use a crappy old 9" T-bar with 12 pt 1/2" socket (no available pipe to extend the handle).
I have a newer set of half decent 6 pt sockets but only in 3/8".
Basically, I need Plusgas, 6 pt 1/2" socket set, and a 2ft 1/2" breaker bar.
I had a quick look on Halfords website and surprised they don't seem to sell long breaker bars. Toolstation and Amazon have some for less than 20 quid or is that false economy?
Draper 600mm for £17 ?
https://www.toolstation.com/draper-breaker-bar/p72665 (https://www.toolstation.com/draper-breaker-bar/p72665)
Update: My local Toolstation and FFX are out of stock of the Draper. Ordered a £14 Sealey AK730 600mm from FFX - different knuckle design.
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I had a quick look on Halfords website and surprised they don't seem to sell long breaker bars. Toolstation and Amazon have some for less than 20 quid or is that false economy?
Draper 600mm for £17 ?
https://www.toolstation.com/draper-breaker-bar/p72665 (https://www.toolstation.com/draper-breaker-bar/p72665)
I think the one I use day to day is a Draper like those at Toolstation, and it's done everything I've asked of it. I managed to break the knuckle on a ½" Britool bar I had at work, it did get some abuse though. Replaced it with a Teng, which I still have.
If the bolt heads are clean and not corroded, you may get away with a 12 point socket, but 6 point are always preferable on tight stuff.
Carrier bolts should be studlocked, so heat is usually preferable to penetrating oil, but a breaker should do the job without either.
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I find a 3' length of tubing helps, at a pinch off cut from scaffolding can provide the key. Still favour a dose of plusgas overnight.
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Machine Mart Pro range of tools is a lot better than you might think, I have been pleasantly surprised. They have a wide range of breaker bars
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/categories/?search=breaker%20bar
An alternative approach would be an impact driver, again MM have a range
https://www.machinemart.co.uk/categories/?search=impact+driver&Brand=Clarke
Cordless are way more convenient but if you don't already have cordless tools it's a bigger outlay. They also have 240V versions which work well, I've used their 450Nm version before.
I have pneumatic and cordless Makita impact wrenches to cover most eventualities, cordless is most convenient by far if you're using one at all regularly, if not the corded ones are fine.
If using an impact wrench you do really need to use impact sockets, "regular" sockets can and do break with a powerful impact driver. You can always use impact sockets with hand tools, so might be worth considering anyway. I picked up a Halfords set with a voucher a couple of years ago and they have been very good.
Just some thoughts. It depends a bit how you view investments in tools.
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@olduser1, sadly no scaffold pole or iron pipe available to me unless I was to go and buy it.
@embee, I didn't know you could buy 'corded' impact wrenches which are more affordable.
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I didn't know you could buy 'corded' impact wrenches which are more affordable.
Those impact drivers work surprisingly well, even the cheap ones. Ideal for the DIYer that isn't going to be using it every day, and being corded isn't usually an issue. The only problem is that you can't always get them onto awkward bolts if access is tight.
A breaker bar is cheap, and works - that's the only reason I recommend them. You don't need impact sockets either.
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I was looking at various Youtube videos. The Lidl Parkside corded 450 C3 1/2" impact driver offers 320 Nm loosening torque and lower 100 Nm tightening torque, sold mainly for 'undoing' wheel nuts. All for 35 quid with some sockets too. Whether a local Lidl offers them for sale is another matter.
I did note these corded impact drivers seem to be quite big (long).
450 C3
https://youtu.be/BgNnWQP0_hA (https://youtu.be/BgNnWQP0_hA)
Newer £50 corded model is 550 A1 compared to a cordless 400Nm model
https://youtu.be/X09_LPV3Nhw (https://youtu.be/X09_LPV3Nhw)
Cordless £70 400Nm Parkside vs £200+ 250Nm Bosch
https://youtu.be/Cns9pL3g6dY (https://youtu.be/Cns9pL3g6dY)
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They can be a bit bulky, hence the comment. Fine if you're doing something straight on, such as wheel nuts or carrier bolts, but not always helpful around the suspension.
I think most of these cheap Chinese ones are pretty much the same, they pop up periodically around that price in the discount supermarket 'middle aisles', and cash & carry places. Once they've sold the ones they have allotted to each store, that's it until next time.
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Can someone recommend a reasonably priced cordless impact wrench which would be good enough for wheel nut removal etc?
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Can someone recommend a reasonably priced cordless impact wrench which would be good enough for wheel nut removal etc?
Depends what you consider reasonable, some of the branded battery ones are very pricey.
The cheapest end of the market, Lidl also do a 20V battery version which uses the 20V battery that fits all sorts of power tools and garden implements. When they have them, they are around £60 - similar ones from other retailers are usually £80+
Lots of reviews online, and videos on youtube.
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Top brand cordless tools with Li-ion batteries are now very good. The fundamental issue is that you really need to carefully decide which brand to sign up to. The batteries are probably the most significant part of the investment, and once you decide on your brand you're more or less committed to that for all your tools.
Personally I'm with Makita, but Bosch, De Walt, and Milwaukee are all reliable good quality stuff with pretty big range of tools. I still have some 3Ah batteries which are nearly 10yrs old, one is getting a bit tired but still usable. The problem I've seen with other folk who have used for example Ryobi is that not only are the tools much less robust but the batteries don't last, a couple of years and they are shot.
If you only want one specific tool then it's a different matter. If you are likely to want more cordless tools then I'd always recommend paying the extra for the big name stuff, see what the tradespeople use for the evidence. There are some good online retailers of the big brands at fair prices, very often 10 or 20% less than the well known outlets. You can save big money by getting bare tools (no case, no battery, no charger etc) once you have the basic kit.
Some retailers I've had good deals from are https://www.lawson-his.co.uk/ , https://www.ffx.co.uk/ , https://www.howetools.co.uk/
No commercial connection, just good service experience.
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I always used to be a Bosch person, but I don't think they're made as good as they once were. Never been that keen on later DeWalt/B&D stuff, I only had one DeWalt drill and it didn't last well. I also repair this sort of stuff, and while Makita are great tools, and the prices are now more competitive, I'm seeing a few common failures in the modern stuff that's simply not economic to repair. I guess it's the way of things.
Milwaukee is lovely stuff, but £300+ for a tool to undo wheel nuts is probably going to be asking a bit too much.
One thing I would say is that the batteries on Chinese stuff used to be absolutely diabolical, but they have come on in leaps and bounds in the last few years. You just can't expect them to last as good as something 5 times the price.
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My advice on removal:
PlusGas for 24 hours (NOT WD40).
Then blowlamp.
Whilst still hot , more PlusGas.
Leave another 24 hours.
Then breaker bar - I have a 0.5meter one I have not broken (yet).
Alternate trying to loosen and tighten will help break the seal of rust.
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To be honest, I've never had any problem removing carriers with a breaker bar, they always come off without any other assistance.
The only time I had a problem was when the heads were so corroded, I had to file the flats down to the next socket size down and knock a socket on.
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£14 Sealey 600mm AK730 breaker bar arrived day after ordering from FFX. The remainder of my CP4less order also finally turned up on 6th day. (Discs and pads were delivered in 2 days)
I didn't buy any PlusGas but I did earlier order a can of own brand Triple QX maintenance spray (penetrating fluid). Given the caliper carrier bolts and disc retaining screws a squirt
Found some old 6 sided 17mm sockets and an old ring spanner. I will have another go at the caliper bolts at the weekend.
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Re power tools, I used to use Wolf electric tools, ( you need to be a few years old to remember that brand ) !!When they were no longer made I went over to Hitachi, which are excellent, not cheap but I needed good tools for my job.
Have actually still got a Hitachi cordless angle drill 9.6 volt still in good working order and battery still charges ok, which is 31 years old !! Strangely both drill body and EB9 battery are made in Ireland.
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I once had to undo the front wheel bearing nut on my Austin 1800. It was so tight that the breaker bar with scaffolding pole just moved the car along the tarmac (brake on and in gear). I had to end up parking with the bumper against a wall to get it undone. Torquing back up was easy enough.
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I once had to undo the front wheel bearing nut on my Austin 1800. It was so tight that the breaker bar with scaffolding pole just moved the car along the tarmac (brake on and in gear). I had to end up parking with the bumper against a wall to get it undone. Torquing back up was easy enough.
:D :D :D
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Pagid discs and pads fitted.
I'd applied penetrating fluid spray as suggested previous two nights.
This afternoon, I put an alternative 17mm ring spanner on the caliper bolts and tried whacking the end of the spanner a few times with a wooden mallet. Didn't seem to want to budge like last time.
As I could only jack up one corner of the car at a time, I put the steering on full lock and jacked up the corner to allow me to use new breaker bar.
Put new 60cm breaker bar on it, and the bolts loosened with very little effort (Felt like less effort than undoing wheel nuts). In hindsight, my 40cm torque wrench probably would have worked too.
Thank you for everyone's advice.
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Great to hear you've beaten the rust.
New discs are an investment as well as a safety improvement.
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I always used to be a Bosch person, but I don't think they're made as good as they once were. Never been that keen on later DeWalt/B&D stuff, I only had one DeWalt drill and it didn't last well. I also repair this sort of stuff, and while Makita are great tools, and the prices are now more competitive, I'm seeing a few common failures in the modern stuff that's simply not economic to repair. I guess it's the way of things.
Milwaukee is lovely stuff, but £300+ for a tool to undo wheel nuts is probably going to be asking a bit too much.
One thing I would say is that the batteries on Chinese stuff used to be absolutely diabolical, but they have come on in leaps and bounds in the last few years. You just can't expect them to last as good as something 5 times the price.
Purchased this from Amazon, arrived today, seems to get better reviews than most of the cheapies. Removed wheel nuts with ease which will be my main use. At least I get 30 days to try it.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210226/aadf09c4a3ae4bdd818b52aafbb369f5.jpg)
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Pagid discs and pads fitted.
I'd applied penetrating fluid spray as suggested previous two nights.
This afternoon, I put an alternative 17mm ring spanner on the caliper bolts and tried whacking the end of the spanner a few times with a wooden mallet. Didn't seem to want to budge like last time.
As I could only jack up one corner of the car at a time, I put the steering on full lock and jacked up the corner to allow me to use new breaker bar.
Put new 60cm breaker bar on it, and the bolts loosened with very little effort (Felt like less effort than undoing wheel nuts). In hindsight, my 40cm torque wrench probably would have worked too.
Thank you for everyone's advice.
Good job, well done, sorry about your locking key
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It occurs to me I was only able to get a longer handle wrench onto the caliper carrier bolts by turning the front wheels to full lock for better access.
But you can't do this for the rear wheels.
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Put new 60cm breaker bar on it, and the bolts loosened with very little effort (Felt like less effort than undoing wheel nuts). In hindsight, my 40cm torque wrench probably would have worked too.
Better off using the breaker, it doesn't do torque wrenches any good.
It occurs to me I was only able to get a longer handle wrench onto the caliper carrier bolts by turning the front wheels to full lock for better access.
But you can't do this for the rear wheels.
You only need enough swing to crack the bolt threads, usually a few inches is enough. Shouldn't be a problem if you have the back up on an axle stands, and the knuckle will gain you a bit more movement too.
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Good job done there.
Just a couple of general points. Don't ever use a torque wrench for anything except tightening to a set torque. For breaking free use a breaker bar.
.... and don't ever use an impact wrench to tighten wheel nuts. It's OK to use one on a low setting just to run the nuts down to snug, but even a modest impact wrench can tighten way beyond wheel nut values (100Nm or thereabots). You still see the "wheeler dealer experts" n TV using an impact wrench to tighten them, but you shouldn't ever see a professional fitter using one to tighten.
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There are torsion bars to ensure the correct tightness when using impact wrench. That's what was used in Esso workshop I worked one summer 30 years ago.
https://www.bahco.com/gb_en/torsion-bars-with-1-2--drive-designed-for-tightening-wheel-nuts-with-an-impact-wrench-without-exceeding-the-recommended-torque-pb_bwtbp1290-bwtb12p200_.html (https://www.bahco.com/gb_en/torsion-bars-with-1-2--drive-designed-for-tightening-wheel-nuts-with-an-impact-wrench-without-exceeding-the-recommended-torque-pb_bwtbp1290-bwtb12p200_.html)
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On the subject of torque wrenches, does anyone have any recommendations for occasional use with acceptable accuracy at an affordable (low!) price?
My Norbar SL2 is over 35 years old and is rated 30-150Nm.
No idea whether it is still accurate given the abuse I've given it mostly on doing and undoing wheel nuts.
Looking for a replacement, and another smaller range 15-30Nm 3/8in T. wrench.
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.... and don't ever use an impact wrench to tighten wheel nuts. It's OK to use one on a low setting just to run the nuts down to snug, but even a modest impact wrench can tighten way beyond wheel nut values (100Nm or thereabots). You still see the "wheeler dealer experts" n TV using an impact wrench to tighten them, but you shouldn't ever see a professional fitter using one to tighten.
Whilst I totally agree with you, from my experience most (not all) garages will use their air impact tools on wheel nuts and hardly ever check torque settings on anything else when assembling other items.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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On the subject of torque wrenches, does anyone have any recommendations for occasional use with acceptable accuracy at an affordable (low!) price?
The Norbar is a decent torque wrench, probably worth getting it checked over and calibrated. Or check/calibrate it yourself - all you need is some weights and a bench vice.
https://www.wikihow.com/Calibrate-a-Torque-Wrench
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I have a couple of Britool and an ancient Williams torque wrench covering most ranges I tend to use.
An awful lot of folk have found the Halfords wrenches to be good quality, I think they tend to do well in the Auto Express tests. https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/product-group-tests/84791/best-torque-wrenches
I don't know who makes them, but a lot of bike owners have bought them according to bike forums.
Norbar should be as good as you get.
As suggested, doing a back-to-basics calibration using weight x distance will tell you whether it's more or less right, a useful tip is that a litre of water is 1kg. I occasionally check my wrenches back-to-back where the ranges overlap, use a ratchet square to join two wrenches together, set one scale and adjust the other until they click at effectively the same time. If the readings are pretty much the same it's likely they are both about right.
Be aware that most torque figures specified are for "dry oiled" condition, i.e. the minimum amount of protective lubricant (often wax) usually found in industry. If you use any sort of grease etc then as a rule of thumb reduce the torque by something like 15%. I always go up in stages too, don't just set the wrench and go for it. Set it to 50 or 60% and see what it feels like, then go up.
Interestingly I have checked a couple of "cheap'n'cheerful" wrenches against my calibrated Britool and they have been very close to being right, well within a practical range anyway (+/- 5%, usually good enough unless critical fasteners).
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The cheap Chinese torque wrenches are surprisingly accurate, but do drift out with use/abuse, especially at the lower end.
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We used a range of torque wrenches one place I worked and they were calibrated every 6 months.
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I'm lacking access to a decent workbench vice at the moment to check my Norbar.
Using a hobbyist vice, I could only test to 10kg at 0.38cm to produce 37.5 Nm. The old Norbar 'clicks' at around 42 Nm setting. If I were to try 20kg weight, it would probably break the vice.....
A new vice would probably cost about 50 quid.
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The Norbar is a decent torque wrench, probably worth getting it checked over and calibrated. Or check/calibrate it yourself - all you need is some weights and a bench vice.
https://www.wikihow.com/Calibrate-a-Torque-Wrench
I was debating whether to buy a new cheap torque wrench (Sealey AK624 is £38) for comparison, or a new vice (£48 Irwin One Ton) and build a new fixed workbench.
Decided to have another go and check my 150 Nm Norbar SL2 which I bought new 35 years ago. I anchored my recently purchased 60cm breaker bar to my Wickes 800mm (not 600mm) workmate/bench, weighted down. Connected Norbar to the breaker bar. Hung 21kg onto end of the horizontal Norbar at 39cm generating 80 Nm, and to my surprise, it 'clicked' at around 80 Nm setting. I also checked either side of the 80 Nm. Accuracy is good enough. No adjustment necessary after 35 years.....
At lower force of 40 Nm, the Norbar clicked at 42.5 Nm but I understand it is normal for torque wrenches to be inaccurate at lower settings.
I couldn't test at 120 Nm as I feared my Wickes workbench would break/tip over....