Author Topic: Battery challenge 2016 jazz  (Read 3654 times)

1643

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2021, 07:02:01 AM »
Interesting discussion. I’d go with installing one of the Noco - on board battery chargers, and plug it in at the end of your journey. That way your lead acid stop start car battery would not be left in a discharged state for too long after a 100 stop journey. The built in mechanisms to protect the battery will disable stop start when the battery is too low to continue stop start operation.

I don’t know what a Noco is but I have a battery charger that is designed for all kinds of batteries except lithium and also has the feature once fully charged it maintains it at full charge, before changing to lithium I was leaving car charging if not making any journeys after work so it was fully charged in the morning yet no stop start cause the car remembered it was not charged up when I last turned engine off. Stop-start would then only come on after a long drive with fan on. Even before starting courier job when the shortest journeys were 2-3 miles and daily mileage 100-150 miles stop-start hardly ever activated in a 1 year old battery and I needed to replace battery every 18 months or so I thought lithium will be more durable and it is suitable for stop start applications just need the computer to accept it

madasafish

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2021, 08:42:50 AM »
Much easier to fit a Heavy Duty conventional battery - 70AH  instead of standard 40AH?
Might require some bodging of the battery tray but charging system will cope.
Near doubling in battery capacity.

1643

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2021, 09:07:28 AM »
Much easier to fit a Heavy Duty conventional battery - 70AH  instead of standard 40AH?
Might require some bodging of the battery tray but charging system will cope.
Near doubling in battery capacity.

Done that in my older jazz (that is used for courier work too) not sure how big it is but much bigger than stock one. I noticed some improvement and it now copes with 100 stops while it’s hot if I am not using AC (on the new jazz with lithium i can use AC all day), when temperatures were lower 1-2 months ago it struggled after 70-80 stops and I need to plug it in to charge every night. Not impressed

culzean

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2021, 09:10:51 AM »
I have 3 bikes with the Shido LiFePO batteries which are plug-and-play in the bikes, no issues with the charging, the batteries look after that on the standard reg/recs.
The Li battery to replace a 10Ah Yuasa YTZ14S weighs one kg compared to 4kg for the lead one.

You need an inventive electronics person to come up with some way to convince the car that it's OK, could be tricky. Let us know if you succeed.

The charging system on a motorbike is nowhere near as sophisticated as the ones on cars. The battery on motorbike is also normal SLI ( starting lighting ignition ) so no need for fancy charge level checking,  which is where things get tricky as coulomb counting comes into play ( measuring exactly what goes in and comes out of the battery via a sensor on one of the battery leads , which on Jazz is in the negative lead which is why when charging the battery it is no good attaching battery charger clip to the negative battery post as this bypasses the sensor, it is necessary to clip negative of charger to earth on body ).

I took the normal 'shunt' RR off my motorbike and swapped it for an Electrex world ( UK ) 'series' type.  To maintain a reasonable voltage at the battery the shunt type basically redirects excess voltage ( 60 to 70 volts from the 3 phase generator ) down to earth using the stator coil resistance and the heatsink of the RR to do it,  this means both the stator coils and heatsink run red hot.  The series type is more like a lamp dimmer,  only allowing the power through that is required,  this means both the stator and the heatsink run much cooler ( measured heatsink temp when I swapped them over, with shunt one = 75 deg C, series one 40 deg C ).  I cannot measure the stator coil temperature but because less current flowing it has to be a lot less than it was.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

richardfrost

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2021, 09:25:41 AM »
You are doing deliveries up to 100 per day, and each distance between deliveries can be less than 100 yards. But stop start only works if the ignition is on. Are you saying you are doing up to 100 deliveries a day and leaving the car unattended with the ignition on (engine running) every time?

Apart from the safety and legal issues, if I was that way inclined, and saw you doing that, I would only have to follow you a few hundred yards on foot to your next delivery and then jump in and have it away with your car and all the packages onboard.

Am I missing something?

Jocko

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2021, 05:36:38 PM »
I think by stop-start he is referring to stopping, ignition off then restarting when he returns to the vehicle. Or maybe I am wrong.

1643

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2021, 05:39:09 PM »
You are doing deliveries up to 100 per day, and each distance between deliveries can be less than 100 yards. But stop start only works if the ignition is on. Are you saying you are doing up to 100 deliveries a day and leaving the car unattended with the ignition on (engine running) every time?

Apart from the safety and legal issues, if I was that way inclined, and saw you doing that, I would only have to follow you a few hundred yards on foot to your next delivery and then jump in and have it away with your car and all the packages onboard.

Am I missing something?

You are missing EVERYTHING. Let me start from the beginning.

Dedicated stop-start battery. Longer journeys. Stop starts works as intended for about a year, then hardly ever comes on, shortly after battery due for replacement (approx 18 months). At that time car was doing 30-40k miles a year.

Got a new job. Courier work. Of course I wouldn’t expect stop-start to work during deliveries but the issue was that when I turn my engine off, remove keys from ignition and lock my car so many times a day towards the end of the day the battery struggles to start the car. That means if I am busy I have to sometimes take my chances and leave it running, both illegal and risky, but I still have to do that in my other car (with old battery) in quiet cul de sacs in winter months.

Lithium resolved this problem. I can turn engine off and on all day long and it won’t struggle to start. It is safer cause I can always lock my car and also improved fuel economy.

However the downside is that on my days off work if I to on a 300-mile trip stop start won’t activate. That’s what I am asking for help / advice with

E27006

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2021, 08:03:07 PM »
I have two  trains of thought:
1)
for your courier duties, run the car with two independent batteries, the Lithium battery hard -wired via a changeover switch to the starter motor contactor relay, so the Lithium battery drives the starter motor and nothing else, you would have to charge the Lithium battery overnight on a mains charger to maintain charge state
.2)
For your 300 mile trips,  operate the changeover switch to isolate the Lithium battery so the standard  battery is the sole source of power to the starter motor and the rest of the car

1643

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2021, 09:20:18 AM »
I have two  trains of thought:
1)
for your courier duties, run the car with two independent batteries, the Lithium battery hard -wired via a changeover switch to the starter motor contactor relay, so the Lithium battery drives the starter motor and nothing else, you would have to charge the Lithium battery overnight on a mains charger to maintain charge state
.2)
For your 300 mile trips,  operate the changeover switch to isolate the Lithium battery so the standard  battery is the sole source of power to the starter motor and the rest of the car

That sounds overly complicated. And I would need to remember / have time to charge one of the batteries up at home. Occasionally the car is used by 2 drivers day & night shift I can’t rely on any “charge at home daily” routines. One of the reasons I am not considering electric cars.

I’ve read there are some dual battery installations that are connected to each other but I’ve no idea how to set it up. Let alone there is room for one battery under the bonnet not two I’m not sure where the second battery would have to be

JimSh

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2021, 10:20:56 AM »
Occasionally the car is used by 2 drivers day & night shift I can’t rely on any “charge at home daily” routines. One of the reasons I am not considering electric cars.
Prior to you posting this I was thinking that an electric car/van would have been the ideal vehicle for your courier job with no repeated starting problems but I suppose it depends on mileage and shifts.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2021, 10:35:53 AM by JimSh »

ColinB

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2021, 11:26:28 AM »
I can’t claim much knowledge about batteries, but I do wonder whether you’re looking for something that doesn’t exist and if it did wouldn’t help you much. This comment ...
Got a new job. Courier work. ... the issue was that when I turn my engine off, remove keys from ignition and lock my car so many times a day towards the end of the day the battery struggles to start the car.
...
Lithium resolved this problem. I can turn engine off and on all day long and it won’t struggle to start.
... suggests that your usage cycle is such that the car doesn’t run long enough to keep the battery charged given the number of stops & restarts you do. Surely any battery will eventually run down under those conditions? A fancy battery may take longer than a conventional one, but eventually you’ll have to charge it whatever type it is. The fact that stop/start isn’t working is just an early reminder that the battery is struggling. Fudging the stop/start with some clever electronics, even if that can be done, won’t prevent the need for recharging the battery at some point, either with an external charger or by going for a long drive.

1643

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2021, 11:53:47 AM »
I can’t claim much knowledge about batteries, but I do wonder whether you’re looking for something that doesn’t exist and if it did wouldn’t help you much. This comment ...
Got a new job. Courier work. ... the issue was that when I turn my engine off, remove keys from ignition and lock my car so many times a day towards the end of the day the battery struggles to start the car.
...
Lithium resolved this problem. I can turn engine off and on all day long and it won’t struggle to start.
... suggests that your usage cycle is such that the car doesn’t run long enough to keep the battery charged given the number of stops & restarts you do. Surely any battery will eventually run down under those conditions? A fancy battery may take longer than a conventional one, but eventually you’ll have to charge it whatever type it is. The fact that stop/start isn’t working is just an early reminder that the battery is struggling. Fudging the stop/start with some clever electronics, even if that can be done, won’t prevent the need for recharging the battery at some point, either with an external charger or by going for a long drive.

I agree my varying usage & changes affect how battery is charging etc, and I am not an expert neither, but I know the basics such as:
- if only doing short journeys / frequent stops, battery will never charge fully and should be hooked up to charger when needed
- a long drive in good weather conditions should get it fully charged
That said most of the time up until recently car was driven mostly on medium and long distance drives, and everytime the battery was replaced for a new one it behaved exactly what I would expect it to, unfortunately getting worse over time and a noticeably poor performance of the battery could be noticed about a year after it’s been installed. I factor in time of the year such as in winter stop start hardly ever works and that’s normal. If battery was replaced in spring, the following spring it was in a poor state and needed to be replaced again before winter. Talking about dedicated stop start battery (supplied and fitted by honda).
Now with this courier work the car still drives a mix of “courier miles” and “normal driving”. I wouldn’t leave it overnight if battery was weak.
A while ago I found an article I can’t find it now about installations of 2 batteries. It was about putting expensive batteries in cars and to ensure their long lifespan an additional cheapest lead acid battery was added to installation and the cheap battery was to be replaced yearly and the good expensive battery last 10+ years. I am wondering if this could be a solution to have power / capacity of lithium and stop-start from AGM (not lead acid in this car for stop start) but I’ve no idea how to potentially install it if there is not enough room for 2 batteries, and how to connect them together?

nowster

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2021, 12:12:52 PM »
Something else you will need to consider, with that type of usage you'll need to increase the frequency of servicing by quite a bit. At the minimum you're going to want to change the oil every 6 months.

1643

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2021, 12:24:47 PM »
Something else you will need to consider, with that type of usage you'll need to increase the frequency of servicing by quite a bit. At the minimum you're going to want to change the oil every 6 months.

Thank you for advice I already have tailored service plans in place

E27006

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Re: Battery challenge 2016 jazz
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2021, 12:59:32 PM »
I do not believe an elegant solution exists, the car is being used in arduous stop/start circumstances for which Honda would probably not recommend,  the heavy use of the starter, a hundred  start cycles in only 5 miles of driving is probably beyond the capacity of the alternator to replenish the battery. A relative drove as a self-employed courier in London, using  Vauxhall Astra diesel vans,  many short 3 to 5  mile trips per day interspersed with longer trips. Alternators and batteries were regular failures, and were replaced on failure at 12 to 18 month intervals, I'm pleased  to hear  the Jazz mechanical and electrical parts are coping with the workload, they are clearly over-engineered in comparison to the Vauxhall parts.

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