Author Topic: Brakes overhaul  (Read 2012 times)

culzean

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Re: Brakes overhaul
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2020, 03:08:56 PM »
I tend not to use copper grease around brakes as it is petroleum based and no good for rubber bits - also copper grease not high melting point and if it gets on disc or pads it is a big problem,  only place I used to use it was on the rear of pads on the anti-squeal shims - but not even there any more.

I have used this TRW PFG110 on brake slide pins for many years,  don't put too much lubricant on the caliper slide pins as they go into a dead end hole and if grease gets in there it can cause hydraulic lock and stop pin moving,  they do put a flat on the slide pins to allow any trapped grease back out but best not to get it in there. Too much grease can also blow out the rubber concertina bellows and either unseat them from the ends or split them.

https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/trw/2204964?bing=1&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&msclkid=afef2caeb04110e523fc7386a8dd2c91
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sparky Paul

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Re: Brakes overhaul
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2020, 03:14:52 PM »
copper grease not high melting point and if it gets on disc or pads it is a big problem

Copaslip is good to 1100°C, but there are some cheap ones out there that are not.

culzean

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Re: Brakes overhaul
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2020, 03:26:00 PM »
copper grease not high melting point and if it gets on disc or pads it is a big problem

Copaslip is good to 1100°C, but there are some cheap ones out there that are not.

Sure the copper bits will be good up to 1100 degC for anti-seize on threads etc because that is just below the melting point of copper,  I was more worried about the carrier oil / grease melting out and contaminating braking surfaces.   
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 03:27:32 PM by culzean »
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sparky Paul

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Re: Brakes overhaul
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2020, 07:29:40 PM »
Sure the copper bits will be good up to 1100 degC for anti-seize on threads etc because that is just below the melting point of copper,  I was more worried about the carrier oil / grease melting out and contaminating braking surfaces.

Copaslip is no-melt molybdenum bentone base, same as some brake greases.

Beware the nondescript brands.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 07:36:32 PM by sparky Paul »

FordPrefect8

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Re: Brakes overhaul
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2020, 11:23:17 AM »
Sure the copper bits will be good up to 1100 degC for anti-seize on threads etc because that is just below the melting point of copper,  I was more worried about the carrier oil / grease melting out and contaminating braking surfaces.

Copaslip is no-melt molybdenum bentone base, same as some brake greases.

Beware the nondescript brands.

CopaSlip ordered, I'll only use it on inner contact brake disc surface and tiny amount on caliper hardware only where the edge of the pad slides on the shim.
I was thinking of using a bit of Renolit G51 on the pin, it's rubber and brake fluid safe and using some marine corrosion block on external bits away from pads and discs.

sparky Paul

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Re: Brakes overhaul
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2020, 12:08:31 PM »
CopaSlip ordered, I'll only use it on inner contact brake disc surface and tiny amount on caliper hardware only where the edge of the pad slides on the shim.

That's all I used it for, without any problems, but I always have some handy. Any of the brake greases available are just as good. If you do get it on rubbers or anything, it won't affect them, as it's not mineral oil based.


I was thinking of using a bit of Renolit G51 on the pin, it's rubber and brake fluid safe and using some marine corrosion block on external bits away from pads and discs.

That sounds like the stuff. As Culzean says above, don't go berserk with the grease on the pins, you only near a smear. Too much, and the pins get stuck in the bore - air needs to pass the flats on the pins to allow it to move.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 04:07:02 PM by sparky Paul »

culzean

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Re: Brakes overhaul
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2020, 12:59:41 PM »
http://www.molyslip.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Copaslip-Data-Sheet.pdf

Copaslip is based on mineral oil ( petroleum ) carrier,  so no good anywhere near rubber seals ( petroleum based products cause brake seals to swell and split ).  Also it is an anti-seize ( not a lubricant ) based on copper particles rather than MoS2 ( molybdenum disulphide ).   Brake fluid is a synthetic ester and seals designed to be used with it will not tolerate petroleum based substances.
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sparky Paul

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Re: Brakes overhaul
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2020, 04:04:25 PM »
http://www.molyslip.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Copaslip-Data-Sheet.pdf

From your own link to the US product,

Quote
In the automotive industry Copaslip is recommended by major automotive manufacturers for use as a lubricant behind disc brake pads to prevent brake squeal and for application to pivot points and adjusters on drum brakes to facilitate adjustments. For exhaust systems use Copaslip between manifold, pipes and mufflers for removal without distortion or damage. Copaslip is also excellent for spark plug threads cylinder head bolts and gasket surfaces.


I believe it's basically the same stuff, but this is the product sold in the UK,

https://www.draketooling.co.uk/Products/maintenance_workshop_anti-sieze/MOL13005

Quote
Copaslip (often misspelled as copperslip or coppaslip) - the original anti-seize compound. It is a very high temperature (up to 1100°C) anti-seize assembly compound, bentone based non-melt grease with copper, polybutene, and anti-corrosion additives.

It's not a mineral oil base. The bentone grease has a non-melting hydrotreated petroleum distillate base that is safe on natural and synthetic rubbers. I've used tons of Copaslip over the years, and never had any problem with it attacking any rubber seals. The only problem I encountered was when they banned it in the food industry, in case we poisoned someone.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 07:56:53 PM by sparky Paul »

culzean

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Re: Brakes overhaul
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2020, 05:14:47 PM »
Mineral oil is petroleum based.   RRG is based on castor oil ( where Castrol name originated from ) Bentone is the clay thickener made from Bentonite clay.   The Bentone 'soap' base referred to in Castrol RRG data sheet is the clay thickener not the lubricant.   Copaslip data sheet only mentions metal to metal contact,  it is an anti-seize rather than a true lubricant.   Any grease containing Bentonite as a thickener can be described as bentone grease, no matter if the lubricant is petroleum or organic.

https://www.nlgi.org/faqs/what-is-the-thickener-in-lubricating-grease/

from above..

'Organophilic clay thickeners include the minerals bentonite and hectorite. These minerals are purified to remove any non-clay material, ground to the desired particle size distribution, and then chemically treated to make the particles organophilic (more compatible with organic chemicals). Clay particles are then dispersed in a fluid lubricant to form grease. Clay particles must be activated with a polar material to stabilize the thickener structure. No chemical reaction takes place in the production of clay thickened greases. Clay thickeners have no defined melting point, so they have been used historically in high-temperature greases.'

https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/CFB7C700B3BC597380257C39001470BD/$File/RED%20RUBBER%20GREASE%5F452337%5F2013%5F11.pdf

http://www.phillips66lubricants.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Bentone-Grease-SDS.pdf

I will never put anything with even a whiff of petroleum base near brake seals - there is no need to with all the silicone / organic based greases available now.  It is OK on pad rears but still concerned about the carrier oil contaminating braking surfaces if used elsewhere.  Copaslip will be OK with elastomer ( viton etc ) seals designed to handle petroleum based lubes,  just as brake fluid will harm seals designed for petroleum based lubes.

http://importnut.net/brakefluid.htm
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sparky Paul

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Re: Brakes overhaul
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2020, 07:54:26 PM »
I will never put anything with even a whiff of petroleum base near brake seals

I never recommended putting it anywhere near the seals, but any accidental contamination during assembly which is wiped off is not going to damage the seals, as the light distillate will soon evaporate off.

In the absence of brake assembly paste, there is no danger in using Copaslip on the rear of the pad, or a thin wipe on the sliding surfaces, it will not migrate, nor will it melt. It does have one advantage on the rear of pad in that a thin smear soon dries up and gives adhesion. The best grease to use on brake seals and slider pins is PAG based greases, such as the TRW stuff, but I don't think it's recommended for brake pad bearing surfaces.

I think we were originally worrying about the Copaslip on the backs of pads melting, which it doesn't.

copper grease not high melting point

I was more worried about the carrier oil / grease melting out and contaminating braking surfaces.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 08:01:45 PM by sparky Paul »

FordPrefect8

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Re: Brakes overhaul
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2020, 10:02:49 PM »
It didn't start well, after not getting disc and brake set delivered on scheduled day and waiting additional 24h (because covid) I contact UPS only to find out EBC direct didn't even hand the package over! Quick call and it appears that enormous demand is crippling the poor company preventing them from providing basic customer service because reasons and covid. Asked for clarification on times and got callback promised in 20 mins. One hour later I call back to basically cancel order which happens straight away because paypal (always use paypal - love their dispute resolution).
Anyway, found alternative FERODO set, let's see how that goes.
I'm tired of everybody using covid as a silver bullet excuse for everything :(

pennpeel

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Re: Brakes overhaul
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2020, 07:06:27 AM »
Just put my jazz 2010 1.4  in for an mot past but with an advisory for uneven pressure on the rear breaks, just within the limit.  Decided to do the maintenance myself after a few problems with the brakes at my normal garage. Decided to change the discs in case.  (They are meant to have been replaced along with the calipers and pads last year) but they don't look like it though.

Really lost my trust in them now. Sorry going off the thread now.

Decided to replace the brake fluid completely ( never know this done on any car i've ever owned ) although its always on the schedule unless of course they dont list it but there is never a charge for fluid or mention of it being done. Cant get hold of a Haynes manual (their website says they don't do one for that year)l and read on one site you bleed as non ABS, just read here you need to be careful of ABS pump getting air into it. 

Am i right in this process for ABS, empty reservoir first from top, then top up with new fluid, then bleed as normal, as when you bleed the brakes it will draw clean fluid through the ABS unit eventually replacing all the fluid in the system without letting air into the unit?

Appreciate any help, I tell a lie about not replacing fluid in brakes they did on my bike service.  Never know a garage replace anti freeze either! Took my MR2 to Toyota and never mentioned they list everything even greasing door hinges.



madasafish

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Re: Brakes overhaul
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2020, 09:44:03 AM »
I did mine like that 2 years ago.

YOU MUST ensure the level in the master cylinder never gets too low. Air into the ABS system means expensive dealer work.

culzean

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Re: Brakes overhaul
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2020, 10:26:52 AM »
I find the Mityvac mentioned earlier in this tread invaluable when bleeding brakes,  it means you can do it on your own and have full control of everything, can get really good suction on it and the Mityvac reservoir is about the same volume as a master cylinder reservoir filled up to top of threads, this means if you fill master reservoir every time you empty mityvac bottle you get plenty of warning of fluid level in master reservoir - which is absolutely vital if you don't want to get ait into system.  You can get a vacuum only mityvac brake bleeder for about £50 or the vacuum and pressure one about £80.  Sounds expensive but they are a very well built bit of kit and I have had one for many years doing many bikes and cars.... it is an investment.
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