Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 694033 times)

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #600 on: December 04, 2017, 02:49:26 PM »
If capacity cannot be used, it is not capacity...

So are makers quoting ranges based on usable capacity or total capacity?  If the latter, they are going to screw consumer expectations with predictable consequences.

In my reading round EVs I gather that Nissan Leaf's do not use all their capacity - there is a built in margin of error - so your 24 kwh Leaf might have 21 useable kwh (stand to be corrected on this but think I'm right).

On top of this Nissan recommend keeping the charge in the 20% to 80% range most of the time. Occasional full charges are not a problem as long as the car is used straight away.

Certainly the claimed 124 miles for the 24 kwh Leaf and the 155 miles for the 30kwh Leaf (based on NEDC figures) are, to all intents and purposes, fantasy not to say fiction. 80 and 110 much more like it and much less than this if you throw in cold wet weather, climate control and normal motorway speeds.

madasafish

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #601 on: December 04, 2017, 03:01:31 PM »
So system designed so everyone has to learn another address for each location.. That's bound to succeed - in confusing people.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #602 on: December 04, 2017, 03:04:41 PM »
It is much simpler than an OS reference, and covers the entire world (including oceans).

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #603 on: December 04, 2017, 03:30:37 PM »
Just seen the first PCP deal on a new 40kwh Leaf. £5,000 down and £295 per month with a £10,000 plus final payment. Whatever else it is it isn't cheap motoring.

Nissan have been very clever. They phased out the old car and left a gap of 6 months before you can buy a new one. There will be a lot of pent up demand.

It looks a nice car though.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #604 on: December 04, 2017, 08:03:05 PM »

Norway has now reached a point with EV ownership where it is profitable for businesses to install charging points. So the charging network is expanding very quickly, without government subsidy. Currently, EVs are 46.7% of new car purchases. Diesel cars have fallen from 92% of new cars, to 21%.

By far the largest exports of Norway are oil and gas, everything else is minimal, they will really see a truly massive hole in their economy if people from other countries stop using these products and go EV.  But since when has that stopped a virtue signalling socialist democrat / centre left government from going ahead with a 'lets not just shoot ourselves in the one foot, when we can do both feet' scheme !!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 08:05:53 PM by culzean »
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peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #605 on: December 04, 2017, 09:44:12 PM »
Just on pricing, the new Leaf is not a cheap car. Nissan still make an awful lot of ICE cars - there's a new, or at least facelifted, Qashqai out for example. Honda are still bringing out new engines like the 1.0 turbo unit in the new Civic. With that investment in the ICE (always remembering that 2040 is the key date here) it would not be in their interest to effectively undercut their own products. I wonder if this is why we are not seeing cars that would directly compete, in terms of purchase price, with an ICE. Nobody is bringing out an EV for the price of a Fiesta for example despite the fact that batteries are said to be cheaper and the mechanicals of an EV are much simpler than that of an ICE.

No doubt that day will come but I do wonder if the big boys will want a gradual switch to EVs rather than a wholesale one.

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #606 on: December 04, 2017, 09:48:39 PM »

Norway has now reached a point with EV ownership where it is profitable for businesses to install charging points. So the charging network is expanding very quickly, without government subsidy. Currently, EVs are 46.7% of new car purchases. Diesel cars have fallen from 92% of new cars, to 21%.

By far the largest exports of Norway are oil and gas, everything else is minimal, they will really see a truly massive hole in their economy if people from other countries stop using these products and go EV.  But since when has that stopped a virtue signalling socialist democrat / centre left government from going ahead with a 'lets not just shoot ourselves in the one foot, when we can do both feet' scheme !!

In the September 2017 elections a coalition government came to power. The centre right not the centre left are in power at the moment. The lefties and the greens are in a minority.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_parliamentary_election,_2017

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #607 on: December 04, 2017, 09:54:17 PM »
By far the largest exports of Norway are oil and gas, everything else is minimal, they will really see a truly massive hole in their economy if people from other countries stop using these products and go EV.  But since when has that stopped a virtue signalling socialist democrat / centre left government from going ahead with a 'lets not just shoot ourselves in the one foot, when we can do both feet' scheme !!
Which was pretty much what the Norwegian relating the fact said! Mind you, Norway has been putting their oil revenue into a fund, not spending it on aircraft carriers, nuclear armed subs and aid to India (among many deserving cases!!).
I think the first cheap, Fiesta type EV, will come from an independent. Tesla, Lucid and the like are into luxury cars, but eventually someone (most likely one of the Chinese companies), will start selling a cheap (by EV standards) small car.
I was surprised to see that Waymo (another possible manufacturer) has covered 3.5 Million miles in their autonomous test vehicles.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #608 on: December 04, 2017, 10:45:44 PM »
Norway are one of the bad boys of NATO, countries like Poland, Greece and Estonia contribute more. Maybe Norway should spend money on aircraft carriers and nuclear subs instead of EV, what with Norway being so adjacent to Russia.  USA has said it will no longer protect countries who outsource their defence to NATO (USA) and don't contribute enough military spending, which covers most of EU countries.

Waymo need to cover a billion miles or multiple thereof, under all conditions without major accident to prove viability of Autonomous system.

Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #609 on: December 05, 2017, 10:26:52 AM »
Just going back to the price of EVs. The Nissan car closest to the Leaf in size is the Pulsar. This is available for £15 k or £185 per month for the base model (offer from Bristol Street Motors). New EVs are nowhere near the same ball park and you have to be pretty dedicated to the green agenda to throw literally shed loads of cash away on something that will depreciate heavily as well.

The other thing is that Nissan and Co might find it hard to scale up production. I can see EVs being a niche purchase for some time - certainly as new - second hand they start to make some sense if you can live with the range.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #610 on: December 05, 2017, 12:46:29 PM »
New EVs are nowhere near the same ball park and you have to be pretty dedicated to the green agenda to throw literally shed loads of cash away on something that will depreciate heavily as well.

Even worse when poorer taxpayer subsidise rich Tesla and EV buyers - surely that situation cannot continue.

This is interesting article,,

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/will-electric-vehicles-really-put-an-end-to-gas-cars-2017-11-27

Quote from linked article--

The biggest obstacle for electric vehicles’ wide adoption is their failure to address an actual problem from the driver’s point of view. Electric vehicles have less range, lower residual value, higher cost—and this includes fuel cost—slow charging time, and are adversely impacted by cold or hot weather, among other issues. In 1917, electric vehicles represented 38% of the U.S. car fleet; there is a reason why they are at 1% today. Internal-combustion cars offer a more-viable transportation option.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 12:52:32 PM by culzean »
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Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #611 on: December 06, 2017, 10:07:38 AM »
I see that electric black cabs are finally appearing on London's streets. They are considerably more expensive to buy than a conventional black cab, but hopefully will recoup that extra cost.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42221375
Nissan plans to test self driving taxis on the streets of Japan starting in March. Also Japanese robotics maker ZMP is working with a Tokyo taxi operator to develop self-driving taxis for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics.
And Waymo, owned by Google parent company Alphabet, is planning to test autonomous cars with no human safety driver!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-42238112

As an aside, I dreamt last night, I was crossing Antarctica in a Tesla Model S. I had a team of guys laying the charging cable as we went. They cut a groove in the ice and laid the cable, before back-filling the groove with water. Every time I stopped to make camp they would install a charging socket. The car was kept in a heated bubble each night, to protect the battery.
I wonder if Elon Musk would care to sponsor me to do the trip for real ?!?!?

guest5079

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #612 on: December 06, 2017, 11:26:33 AM »
Two questions:   It is stated that EV's are better than ICE powered vehicles as maintenance is less. Surely if you take the ICE out and replace it with the unit that powers an EV the vehicle still has the rest of the moving parts. So how will it last longer?  I am sure Culzean made the point about the modern ICE outlasting the body so why will an EV's body last longer.
The second question is. why is it in all of the arguments about how good, how reliable how much cheaper to run, EV's will be, why does no one ever mention the amount of electricity that is going to be required.
HM Government is involved in building a new Nuclear Power Station at some horrendous cost to the taxpayer and as I understand it Hinckley Point is merely going to make up the shortfall due to the decommissioning of our old power stations. Even with Hinckley Point were are still going to be electricity deficient and that's only for the current needs. Canada is completing a new Hydro system which is merely to cover today' s  requirements. It is all very well to quote China but unlike democracies the Communist Party just takes what it wants. I understand that at the moment all the unwanted ( poor people) are being dispossessed in Bejing so that 'better' housing can be built. Not for the poor because they are all having to return to the provinces. So they will build many EV's and just take what they need to build them and flood the democratic world. If my information is correct, Australia courted the Chinese and did many deals BUT now the Chinese are pulling back from the Australian supplies and whole Townships are suffering.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #613 on: December 06, 2017, 01:27:00 PM »
It is all very well to quote China but unlike democracies the Communist Party just takes what it wants. I understand that at the moment all the unwanted ( poor people) are being dispossessed in Bejing so that 'better' housing can be built. Not for the poor because they are all having to return to the provinces. So they will build many EV's and just take what they need to build them and flood the democratic world. If my information is correct, Australia courted the Chinese and did many deals BUT now the Chinese are pulling back from the Australian supplies and whole Townships are suffering.


China is still basically a communist state that has taken on the best bits of capitalism but still keeps the powers of a communist dictatorship.  The west has created a monster by transferring technology to China to get an i-Phone built more cheaply etc. etc.  As auntyneddy says, if Beijing wants to knock down peoples houses where families have lived for generations and built apartments for yuppies,  then that is what they do - if they want to poison whole towns and villages,  well that s what they do as well, flood historic towns and farms to build a dam, easy peasy.  China will build up an EV industry by prohibiting normal cars after a certain date,  again they can do that and anyone who complains will probably quietly disappear - never to be seen again.

North Korea is playing USA and Japan against China at the moment,  but China needs to realise that being a member of UN also carries responsibility to act in the interests of all members, not just their own expansionist agenda.  Probably better for the west to take China to task now rather than let them destabilise the whole region,  a ban on Chinese goods would be a good start as I doubt the west sells much to China,  so China has much more to lose in any trade war - Trump is dead right about bringing companies and jobs back from China to USA and easier loans for American companies to help them do just that. 
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #614 on: December 06, 2017, 01:40:33 PM »
Oops. Sorry. I thought I had posted in the Electric car thread, not the World Politics thread.

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