Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 694637 times)

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1035 on: October 18, 2018, 09:01:21 PM »
You can currently buy the Toyota Mirai here in the UK, but the price puts it in Jaguar I-PACE territory.
Toyota Mirai

Hyundai ix35 was available here but no longer appears to be on sale.
Hyundai ix35 FCEV

Honda Clarity FCEV is supposed to be available in the UK very soon. It was supposed to be available, late 2018, but that doesn't look likely! I think we could be lucky to see it in 2019, unless Honda's BEV knocks it into the long grass.
Honda Clarity.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1036 on: October 19, 2018, 07:20:58 AM »
A report, today, by the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy committee says that the government plans for zero emission cars and vans, planned for 2040, should be brought forward to 2032.
However, Mike Hawes, head of the Society of Motor Manufacturers & Traders (SMMT), said calls to shift to entirely electric-powered cars by 2032 were "unrealistic".
Perhaps the SMMT would like to explain how this would be a problem since most of the worlds motor manufacturing nations have plans in place for zero emissions by 2030 (Germany, Japan, Korea, China and India).
Does the SMMT envisage us importing all the unsold ICE vehicles from these nations or perhaps importing gas guzzlers from the US (perhaps Mike Hawes’ response was written by the Ford and GM participants in the SMMT)?
The Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy committee also said that the government has to get more involved in providing the necessary infrastructure for EVs, reiterating that the UK's charging infrastructure was still inadequate, and gave rise to "range anxiety" - potential buyers of electric vehicles worrying whether they will be able to reach the next charging station. The report said the government had left delivery of charging points to councils and private companies when a "shared approach" was needed. They also called the changes to grants, announced last week, were "perverse".
The original 2040 ban was unclear about hybrids, but the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy committee says that "zero should mean zero" and called for the government to bring forward "a clear, precise target for new sales of cars and vans to be truly zero emission by 2032".

The report details.
BBC’s take on it.

SteveOne

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1037 on: October 19, 2018, 10:51:21 AM »
FCEVs are certainly a more distant reality than BEVs - but I don't think BEVs work for significant numbers of our population; especially  those without access to home charge points. FCEVs may be less efficient, but batteries are short-lived and have high manufacturing costs and are not exactly green.
As Jocko points out, FCEVs can work in most vehicle types including aircraft.  It's also used in buses etc.
My original point was just to widen the discussion from the current BEV dominated discussion.
We need a breakthough in at least one of these technologies if we're to see an end to fossil fuelled cars by 2032.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1038 on: October 19, 2018, 07:41:09 PM »
Been looking at e-bikes, seem to have the same problem as e-cars. The range can vary from 10 to 30 miles 'depending on weather and terrain' - at least you can carry a spare battery on an e-bike.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1039 on: October 19, 2018, 08:08:23 PM »
Interesting video here on e-bikes.


Some e-bikes can do almost 100 miles on a charge, though I'd rather be waterboarded than sit on a bike for 100 miles!

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/reviews/e-bikes/specialized-vado-turbo-2-0

John Ratsey

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1040 on: October 19, 2018, 10:25:38 PM »
A report, today, by the Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy committee says that the government plans for zero emission cars and vans, planned for 2040, should be brought forward to 2032.
For zero to actually mean zero then the electricity for charging the batteries needs to be generated without producing emissions. Have the politicians considered this minor detail? There's also the energy expended in moving a big lump of battery along the roads. Is this efficient?

Nonetheless, I would personally bring forward the deadline for new petrol or diesel only vehicles to more like 2025. Hybrid technology to keep the engine operating efficiently and cleanly (Which? reports that the Kia Niro hybrid doesn't meet its claimed emissions) and recovers energy when decelerating.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

ColinB

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1041 on: October 20, 2018, 08:06:40 AM »
... Mike Hawes, head of the Society of Motor Manufacturers & Traders (SMMT), said calls to shift to entirely electric-powered cars by 2032 were "unrealistic".
Perhaps the SMMT would like to explain how this would be a problem ...

I suspect you’ve answered your own question in the second half of your comment by referring to the lack of strategy or planning for a public charging infrastructure that meets the mass-market need. SMMT members will be looking at their inability to sell ICEs when the ban comes into force, whilst at the same time people will be reluctant to buy BEVs because they’ll have nowhere to charge them. Inevitably Joe Public will simply hang on to his last-generation ICE for a few years more. Presumably the thinking is that implementing, let alone bringing forward, an ICE ban willl hasten the charging infrastructure but at present there’s no obvious sign of anyone picking up that challenge. So SMMT members will be looking at a big hole in their sales figures in a few years time, which is why they think bringing that forward is “unrealistic”. The other countries you mention may have a more enlightened approach to the charging issue (or a greater proportion of properties with off-road charging potential) that enables them to push ahead quicker.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1042 on: October 20, 2018, 08:43:30 AM »
For zero to actually mean zero then the electricity for charging the batteries needs to be generated without producing emissions. Have the politicians considered this minor detail?
Scottish power has already sold off all its conventional power generation capability and will generate all its energy from wind turbines. It is to invest a further £5.2 billion, over the next 4 years, in wind turbines.

Kenneve

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1043 on: October 20, 2018, 09:15:42 AM »
For zero to actually mean zero then the electricity for charging the batteries needs to be generated without producing emissions. Have the politicians considered this minor detail?
Scottish power has already sold off all its conventional power generation capability and will generate all its energy from wind turbines. It is to invest a further £5.2 billion, over the next 4 years, in wind turbines.

So, on a nice calm day, the lights will go out? or perhaps you will be buying energy from 'Down South'?
I'm sorry, but I just can't see how Scotland will survive on wind power alone.
As I've said before, you only have to look at the Gridwatch website, to see how close, we already get to maximum power generation on a cold winters day, without having to charge 1000's of cars.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1044 on: October 20, 2018, 09:49:33 AM »
So, on a nice calm day, the lights will go out? or perhaps you will be buying energy from 'Down South'?
I have no idea either, but they must have some form of plan in place. They have even sold off their hydro schemes. I can only surmise that they are looking ahead to mass storage(!) or such. Mind you, most of Scotland is windy every day, if not everywhere. The only time the turbines stop up here in when there is excess capacity. The wind farms I can see from here have always at least one turbine turning.

madasafish

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1045 on: October 20, 2018, 10:11:13 AM »
The plan is to invest in mass electricity storage.. but a detailed analysis shows that will not be economic - thinks calm days in winter.. Ditto solar energy.. Some form of standby generation available within a few hours will always be needed.

Large scale storage using lithium is likely to have a short lifespan due battery constraints.  Vanadium batteries are in their infancy but have much longer lifespans and are starting to become available commercially.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1046 on: October 20, 2018, 10:27:23 AM »
I have done further reading up on Scottish Power, and their plans are to use the money from the sale to invest in Tidal,Solar and Wind. Tidal is producing a lot of energy, particularly in the North of Scotland, but requires big investment for commercial production. In the interim they will buy from the facilities they have sold (obviously contracted in the sell out deal).
Regarding battery storage, all the BEVs whose batteries wear out, will provide masses of future grid storage. Renault are already big into that. And as all EV decriers keep telling us, the batteries only last a couple of years, in cars!

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1047 on: October 20, 2018, 10:31:36 AM »
I have done further reading up on Scottish Power, and their plans are to use the money from the sale to invest in Tidal,Solar and Wind. Tidal is producing a lot of energy, particularly in the North of Scotland, but requires big investment for commercial production. In the interim they will buy from the facilities they have sold (obviously contracted in the sell out deal).
Regarding battery storage, all the BEVs whose batteries wear out, will provide masses of future grid storage. Renault are already big into that. And as all EV decriers keep telling us, the batteries only last a couple of years, in cars!

comment from a recent study on renewables...

The SNP like to proclaim their energy independence, and point to the jobs created and income generated for the country. In reality, these are hollow claims.

Very few permanent jobs result from wind power, and most of the money goes to rich landowners and the banks and (mostly foreign owned) who finance and operate the wind farms.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

ColinB

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1048 on: October 20, 2018, 05:57:05 PM »
Scottish power has already sold off all its conventional power generation capability
They have even sold off their hydro schemes.

“Sold off” does not mean these facilities have been decommissioned. This sounds like just an accounting artifice to move these expensive facilities off Scottish Power’s balance sheet (and grab some PR headlines): the generating plants still exist and SP will buy the power from Drax when they need it. So John Ratsey’s point is still valid.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1049 on: October 20, 2018, 06:50:54 PM »
]The SNP like to proclaim their energy independence, and point to the jobs created and income generated for the country. In reality, these are hollow claims.

Very few permanent jobs result from wind power, and most of the money goes to rich landowners and the banks and (mostly foreign owned) who finance and operate the wind farms.[/i]
Where did the SNP come into it. Scottish Power is Spanish owned.

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