Author Topic: Living with a Jazz Crosstar  (Read 16459 times)

John Ratsey

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Living with a Jazz Crosstar
« on: July 16, 2020, 08:55:59 PM »
Further to my test drive and placing an order as described here https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12141.0 I've finally got hold of the keys to my two-tone red Crosstar.

The road on the way home from the dealer felt smoother than when I went in my HR-V. While many potential owners of the Crosstar will be attracted by the extra ride height compared to the normal Mk 4 Jazz, I think the extra travel on the suspension is also worth having (although I haven't ridden in a normal Mk 4 to do a direct comparison).

This afternoon the Crosstar has been on a 40 mile trip on rural roads (B roads or lower category). The fibometer (ie the trip meter) claimed 76 mpg. The maximum speed on that trip was about 55mph with most of it much slower as a good proportion of the journey involved ups, downs and bends which combined to provide a good test of the hybrid system. I put my OBDII reader into the OBDII socket and set it up to send data to the Torque app running on my phone (parked in the cup-holder near the mirror) so I could see the engine rpm. The engine spent the majority of its operating time running at around 2000 rpm but occasionally went as low as 1600 rpm while it got up to about 3500 rpm climbing a 1 in 6 (15%) hill. 3000 rpm seems to be the threshold above which the engine noise becomes audible - much the same as the previous generation of Jazz. This initial observation suggests that Honda decided that around 2000 rpm was the sweet spot for engine efficiency and below 1500 rpm is best avoided.

When I left the dealer the battery was at about 80% (I'm wondering how they got the charge that high) and the vehicle ran on battery for the first half mile until the charge was down to 20% (2 bars on the gauge). Thereafter the battery charge ranged between 20% and 40% under normal driving conditions - Honda seems to have configured the system to leave plenty of capacity to store energy recovered from going down hills. The only time I saw the charge at 100% was after going down a substantial hill and that charge was used to power the next half mile on level ground. I didn't notice the direct engine drive being used at any point on that trip.

I did notice some glare in the windscreen from sun on the top of the dashboard but this was almost uniform and easy to see through. I deliberately didn't wear my polaroids so I could check this aspect although I had already checked this on my test drive but wanted to be sure that I wasn't going to encounter problems if I forgot to put on the polaroids before starting a journey (they are clip-ons so can't be put on without stopping).

The one annoyance with the vehicle so far is the over-zealous Road Departure Mitigation System which does a lot of bonging each time the system thinks it necessary to alert the driver. There are two pages in the paper version of the handbook listing the conditions and limitations of the system (see pages 474 - 477 in the online PDF version of the manual) and driving on smaller roads encounters a lot of those limitations. The system is automatically enabled each time the vehicle is started but there is a procedure involving fiddling with controls on the steering wheel to temporarily disable it. I need to practice doing that. In the mean time I've turned the sound level of the alarms to the minimum setting. Apart from this annoyance the vehicle provides a very pleasant driving experience. Nicer than my HR-V and much nicer than the Mk 3 Jazz and I think any Mk 3 Jazz owner will be surprised by the transformation.

The rear seat room is very generous (as on the Mk 3 Jazz) while the boot isn't so generous (but the cubby hole under the floor is useful for the bits and pieces which otherwise tend to roll around). With rear seats folded the distance from boot sill to back of front seats is about 1.5m.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

John Ratsey

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Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2020, 10:11:35 PM »
A further update after today's excursion which involved about 150 miles of mainly A road driving in Wiltshire and Somerset. The reported mpg for the 3 legs of the journey was in a similar range to yesterday and a bit over 70 mpg. However, warm weather with little wind provides the optimum conditions for good fuel economy.

At one point, I noticed the car running in engine drive at 60 mph for about 1/2 mile. However, on the other occasions that I reached that speed it was using the generator + motor with some charge going to the battery so perhaps battery charge level is a factor in deciding when to engage engine drive. Overall, the system is putting the battery thorough a lot more charging and discharging than I had expected but mainly in the 20% (I've not seen it lower) to 60% range. I get the impression that Honda have decided that the best overall economy is achieved by charging the battery when the engine is running and once the battery is up to about 60% then the engine takes a break and the battery does the work for a while. This could be related to yesterday's observation that 2000 rpm seems to be the engine's preferred speed so any spare power goes to the battery.

At one point on the journey I had been following a tractor running at 35mph and towing a large piece of equipment. When I spotted a gap in the oncoming traffic I floored the accelerator and the Crosstar took off like a scalded cat. The engine revved up into the noisy range (ie over 3000 rpm) to help feed the 80kW motor and I'm sure the battery made a comtribution as well but the result was impressive and instant acceleration.

One thing which currently has me baffled at the moment is that coool air was coming thorugh the air vents without either turning on the air conditioning or the automatic climate control. Moreover, this cool air didn't stop either when running in EV mode or when stopped at traffic lights. So far, the auto-headlights have behaved themselves and didn't come on when driving under trees. The light sensor is now forward looking at the top of the screen rather than the upward looking sensor on the Mk 3 Jazz / HR-V.

I tried the Garmin navigation to see if it had improved since I last had a Garmin satnav. It still has a characteristic which used to annoy me - the preference to use a road name, however obscure, if it can find one rather than the road number. It's the latter which are used on the road signs and I like to relate the instructions to what the signs show. I also discovered that the Garmin system can't recognise a post code if it is entered without a space in the middle. I also used my Tomtom satnav for a while so I could check the speedometer accuracy. It's about 1mph high at 30mph and 2mph high at 60 mph. I find the car's big digital speedometer display to be very helpful.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

culzean

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Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2020, 09:19:19 AM »
I find the car's big digital speedometer display to be very helpful.

That is one of the great things that the Civic has had since 2006,  the large digital speedo high up in your eyeline, also the Civic controls better laid out, larger and easier to use than the small oddly positioned ones on the Jazz.  The Civic dash in the 2006 --> model is a master-class in ergonomic design, don't know why other models missed out.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

csp

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Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2020, 10:51:15 AM »
I have also noticed that the battery charge indicator tends to sit between 20% and 60% most of the time, I haven't yet seen it above about 70% yet. The engine in my Jazz SR normally seems to cut in at about 60 mph but not always, around town the car seamlessly moves from EV to charging mode or engine charging.

Often when I switch on the power in the garage the engine will start and run for a few minutes but the car will normally revert to EV when I get onto the road.

Mellorshark

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Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2020, 11:14:03 AM »
My EX has shown battery at 100%. It is quite hilly where I live, with a long descent near home.  I'm still experimenting with drive D or B.  Also I used to fuel the mk3 with V-Power because it climbed hills better. Given John's info on engine speed it might work well in the mk3.

Mellorshark

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Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2020, 11:15:52 AM »
Sorry - work well in the MK4.

ColinB

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Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2020, 12:41:13 PM »
I'm still experimenting with drive D or B.

Not sure I understand how this B setting should be used. Am I right in understanding that B gives you regenerative braking, and D doesn’t? Do you drive normally in D and switch to B on a downhill (like downshifting with a manual box), or leave it in B all the time? So what happens if you use B and a long descent gets the battery up to 100%? Presumably the car stops trying to charge the battery, are you aware that you’ve lost some of the braking effect, does the lever move itself from B to D?

ColinS

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Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2020, 02:54:13 PM »

Jocko

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Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2020, 04:25:32 PM »
Most EVs have different levels of regenerative braking, and you can select how much you wish to use. The Honda-e has a system like that.
At maximum Regen, you get the One Pedal control that a lot of the manufacturers advertise. With minimum Regen selected the EV drives like a standard car in high gear, with little engine braking on the overrun. Increasing the stages is like using progressively lower gears. Max regen gives the greatest range, and minimum Regen can make for a smoother drive if the range is not an issue.
I assume that the Jazz D and B just determine the level of regen. Personally, I would be switching between the two as circumstances demanded.

John Ratsey

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Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2020, 10:04:26 PM »
Often when I switch on the power in the garage the engine will start and run for a few minutes but the car will normally revert to EV when I get onto the road.
Yesterday morning my Crosstar moved about 20 metres on battery and then decided to run the engine for the next half mile. Perhaps the system is set up to allow a driveway shuffle on battery (but you aren't seeing that) but once it realises that the vehicle is going somewhere the priority is to get the engine warmed up. Or maybe it just wanted to put a bit more charge into the battery - the last 1/3rd mile to my house is slightly downhill and 30 mph so the vehicle tends to use EV mode.

Most EVs have different levels of regenerative braking, and you can select how much you wish to use. The Honda-e has a system like that.
At maximum Regen, you get the One Pedal control that a lot of the manufacturers advertise. With minimum Regen selected the EV drives like a standard car in high gear, with little engine braking on the overrun. Increasing the stages is like using progressively lower gears. Max regen gives the greatest range, and minimum Regen can make for a smoother drive if the range is not an issue.
I assume that the Jazz D and B just determine the level of regen. Personally, I would be switching between the two as circumstances demanded.
I think you've pretty well summarised it. One could stay in B all the time and be half way to a one pedal control. As it is, I shift to B when I know that that I need significant deceleration - usually speed limits at the bottom of hills. However, a light touch on the brake pedal is often advisable to alert drivers behind that the vehicle is slowing down.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2020, 10:12:21 PM by John Ratsey »
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

jazzaro

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Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2020, 09:53:08 AM »
I assume that the Jazz D and B just determine the level of regen. Personally, I would be switching between the two as circumstances demanded.
D and B are only two settings for the regenerative braking when you leave the gas WITHOUT pressing the brake pedal, in B regeneration is bigger. In the CR-V you have more levels that can be selected by paddles, Jazz have only two levels. Both in D than B, you can increase the regeneration by pressing the brake pedal, until the system will ask  the hydraulic circuit to add brake power acting on the 4 calipers.

jazzaro

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Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2020, 10:38:03 AM »
Nice review.
Further to my test drive and placing an order as described here https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=12141.0 I've finally got hold of the keys to my two-tone red Crosstar.

The road on the way home from the dealer felt smoother than when I went in my HR-V. While many potential owners of the Crosstar will be attracted by the extra ride height compared to the normal Mk 4 Jazz, I think the extra travel on the suspension is also worth having (although I haven't ridden in a normal Mk 4 to do a direct comparison).
I must understand if there is a real extra travel or if shocks and springs are only softer...

Quote
I put my OBDII reader into the OBDII socket and set it up to send data to the Torque app running on my phone (parked in the cup-holder near the mirror) so I could see the engine rpm. The engine spent the majority of its operating time running at around 2000 rpm but occasionally went as low as 1600 rpm while it got up to about 3500 rpm climbing a 1 in 6 (15%) hill. 3000 rpm seems to be the threshold above which the engine noise becomes audible - much the same as the previous generation of Jazz. This initial observation suggests that Honda decided that around 2000 rpm was the sweet spot for engine efficiency and below 1500 rpm is best avoided.
Interesting.
It would be nice to know the rpm at stable 62mph with the clutch engaged, just to compare the gear ratio with the 6th of the old jazz.

Quote
When I left the dealer the battery was at about 80% (I'm wondering how they got the charge that high) and the vehicle ran on battery for the first half mile until the charge was down to 20% (2 bars on the gauge). Thereafter the battery charge ranged between 20% and 40% under normal driving conditions - Honda seems to have configured the system to leave plenty of capacity to store energy recovered from going down hills. The only time I saw the charge at 100% was after going down a substantial hill and that charge was used to power the next half mile on level ground. I didn't notice the direct engine drive being used at any point on that trip.

Maybe the battery was at 80% because it was factory pre-charged to keep it in good conditions in long storage, or it has been recharged by the dealer (using the Honda EOBD software) before the delivery. Many technical bullettins write to recharge the battery before delivery on standard cars, the same could be for hybrid cars.
Ah, about the State Of Charge.. it would be interesting to know (just for curioisity) if the 100% means a fully charged battery or if the 100% on the dash is an about 80% for the battery, as for Toyota hybrids, where the battery never gets fully charged to increase its lifetime.

Jocko

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Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2020, 10:43:51 AM »
Ah, about the State Of Charge.. it would be interesting to know (just for curioisity) if the 100% means a fully charged battery or if the 100% on the dash is an about 80% for the battery, as for Toyota hybrids, where the battery never gets fully charged to increase its lifetime.
Perhaps because the battery seems to rise to a max of 80% and fall to a min of 20% the software is designed to permit that range and 100% and 0% is true battery state.
We know that EVs that charge to 100% are actually only charged to 80% and the display is range corrected.

culzean

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Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2020, 10:46:23 AM »
Seems that above 80% and below 20 or 30% are 'no-go' areas on Li-Ion batteries as both over and undercharge will damage battery ( as does fast charging ),  as the battery gets older / used more / fast charged too often and loses capacity then the 30 and 80% limits get relaxed to maintain range - so when battery is described as 30KW/h etc. is that the full 100% capacity or the 30 to 80% capacity ?
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 10:48:31 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

madasafish

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Re: Living with a Jazz Crosstar
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2020, 01:27:10 PM »
Seems that above 80% and below 20 or 30% are 'no-go' areas on Li-Ion batteries as both over and undercharge will damage battery ( as does fast charging ),  as the battery gets older / used more / fast charged too often and loses capacity then the 30 and 80% limits get relaxed to maintain range - so when battery is described as 30KW/h etc. is that the full 100% capacity or the 30 to 80% capacity ?

Almost certainly capacity is gross before and adjustments...

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