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Other Hondas & General Topics => Off Topic (Non-Honda) => Topic started by: Jocko on November 19, 2019, 03:09:34 PM

Title: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2019, 03:09:34 PM
Had a read of the Green Party Manifesto and they have some radical plans for us motorists. They intend making public transport cheaper than using the car. Can you guess what will come down and what will go up? They also intend a 20 mph limit in all built up areas, and 40 mph in all non-residential areas except on major roads. They would end the sale of new petrol and diesel fuelled vehicles by 2030.
For electric cars (which they do not see as our saviour), all current filling stations and motorway service stations to offer electric vehicle charging points by 2025. And finally, create a network of electric vehicle charging points across the country, by requiring their construction through the planning system and encouraging the private sector to deliver them. "We will ensure that these charging points are located in public places, and do not take up pavement and cycling space."
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: VicW on November 19, 2019, 04:03:23 PM
Another party with promises they could never keep.
Another one who will reduce the speed limits to reduce exhaust emissions ignoring the fact that journeys would take longer meaning vehicles would have their engines running for longer
They all have 'pie in the sky' grand plans that they do not have the money to see through.
Perhaps we should have a two party system like many other countries, that would reduce the packs of lies we get from all of our current collection.

Vic.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on November 19, 2019, 05:47:27 PM
Another party with promises they could never keep.
Another one who will reduce the speed limits to reduce exhaust emissions ignoring the fact that journeys would take longer meaning vehicles would have their engines running for longer
They all have 'pie in the sky' grand plans that they do not have the money to see through.
Perhaps we should have a two party system like many other countries, that would reduce the packs of lies we get from all of our current collection.

Vic.

The fact that you get more miles per gallon at lower speeds covers the 'engine running longer' bit,  if you can do the same journey using less fuel it means fewer emissions - doesn't matter if engine running longer,  the distance you cover and the fuel you use is the important bit...   50 to 55mph seems to be the sweet spot for most ICE cars ( and probably most electric ones as well, that would explain why they maximise the range of BEV by doing the testing at that speed,  and the range drops dramatically if you travel at motorway speeds,  up to a third less range on motorway than on normal roads ).
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: madasafish on November 19, 2019, 05:59:03 PM
I just love it when people propose things which are impossible. Shows what groundwordk they have done.

Over 50% of UK power comes  from "Combined Cycle Gas Turbine - These use Natural Gas to power a Turbine which turns a Generator. A second system uses the heat to produce steam which is used to turn a turbine which powers a generator. There are 39 CCGT power stations in the UK."

https://gridwatch.co.uk/

As gas will be phased out by 2030. we must replace ALL the above power stations by then. And as solar does not work at night and wind is variable, that either means LOTS of nuclear - impossible in the 10 year timespan as lead times are more than 10 years --- or large scale electric storage - the technology for which is in its infancy...

Since they have not done their sums on this, I refuse to believe a word they write..
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on November 19, 2019, 07:28:35 PM
I'm waiting to see the queues at charging points when BEV become more widespread,  and the pie in the sky greens ( where the leader and only MP Ms Lucas regularly takes long haul flights to see family, try doing a long haul in an electric plane ) who want to ban all forms of fossil fuels and have nothing but unreliable renewables to replace them ( as I posted a link in electric car thread California - that greenest of green states gets 80% of its electricity from fossil fuels once the Sun goes down )..

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1202599/Election-news-caroline-lucas-BBC-andrew-marr-green-party-manifesto-latest
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on November 19, 2019, 08:50:07 PM
LOTS of nuclear - impossible in the 10 year timespan as lead times are more than 10 years
The Greens will build no new nuclear power stations.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on November 19, 2019, 09:23:08 PM
LOTS of nuclear - impossible in the 10 year timespan as lead times are more than 10 years
The Greens will build no new nuclear power stations.

It is pretty obvious why the green party only has one MP.....  If you live on a different planet you are not allowed to vote in Earths elections.....
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: guest7494 on November 20, 2019, 08:36:57 AM
Another party with promises they could never keep.
Another one who will reduce the speed limits to reduce exhaust emissions ignoring the fact that journeys would take longer meaning vehicles would have their engines running for longer
They all have 'pie in the sky' grand plans that they do not have the money to see through.
Perhaps we should have a two party system like many other countries, that would reduce the packs of lies we get from all of our current collection.

Vic.

Well said and I agree, there is not one of these carpet baggers who are not interested in there own agenda, and some more than others with there head on one side and a smarmy voice All for the Many etc etc, be very wary of what you wish or vote for there is nothing new in Politics and some people have very short memories.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on November 20, 2019, 08:58:29 AM
The problem is, something has to be done if OUR world is to survive. And what has to be done will not be easy, popular or welcomed. The Greens ideas are good, it is just the implementing of them that is the problem.
We will eventually have to give up on our petrol and diesel vehicles, gas central heating will have to go and wind and wave will eventually have to supply our energy. At least, here in the UK, we are never far from tidal energy, and it is reliable and constant.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: peteo48 on November 20, 2019, 10:23:40 AM
If you accept man made climate change as a pressing issue (I do) then there is no way round the fact that the way we live our lives will have to change radically.

I don't think humanity is prepared to make the necessary sacrifices so I consider the future to be bleak.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on November 20, 2019, 10:58:42 AM
Yes, they are talking about soya products instead of meat, but soya production has led to massive amounts of Brazil's deforestation. I am glad I have not long to go as the thought of going vegetarian makes me puke (I am a Scot, my 5 a day is 5 portions of chips).
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on November 20, 2019, 11:19:41 AM
Yes, they are talking about soya products instead of meat, but soya production has led to massive amounts of Brazil's deforestation. I am glad I have not long to go as the thought of going vegetarian makes me puke (I am a Scot, my 5 a day is 5 portions of chips).

They claim that soya and vegetarian stuff takes up much less land to grow same amount of protein as animals,  but what they fail to say is that not all land is suitable for growing crops without massive irrigation - most of Australia north of a line between Sydney and Perth is unsuitable for anything except sheep, cattle, goats and camels - and even areas below that line they are pumping so much water out of Darling-Murray river system to irrigate crops that nothing flows out river mouth by Adelaide any more,  the estuary is bone dry.... 

And vegetable protein has always been known as 'second class protein' for a reason,  we would be better off eating deep fried grasshoppers than soya....
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: peteo48 on November 20, 2019, 12:03:42 PM
Yes, they are talking about soya products instead of meat, but soya production has led to massive amounts of Brazil's deforestation. I am glad I have not long to go as the thought of going vegetarian makes me puke (I am a Scot, my 5 a day is 5 portions of chips).

I think that's definitely true of the soya that they use as animal feed. Alpro claim that the stuff they use in food for human consumption comes from Europe and doesn't involve clearing rain forest.

I'd struggle to go vegan. I have reduced the amount of meat I eat though. I always try to buy British.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: sparky Paul on November 20, 2019, 03:38:09 PM
I think that's definitely true of the soya that they use as animal feed. Alpro claim that the stuff they use in food for human consumption comes from Europe and doesn't involve clearing rain forest.

Soya is used in all manner of processed foodstuffs now, and I can imagine that some manufacturers might not be so choosy as to the source. Most cattle here are fed on soya based feeds as you say, so meat and dairy production is also directly driving deforestation.

Palm oil plantations are another menace.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on November 20, 2019, 04:10:11 PM
Currently, the biggest driver of deforestation in Brazil, is beef production.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: peteo48 on November 20, 2019, 04:49:30 PM
Just a random thought. I watched the ITN interviews with the other party leaders at 10 pm last night. Nina Hussain put it to Sian Berry of the Green Party that leaving the EU might present opportunities for a greener agenda (not her wording but to that effect). Made me think. EU state aid rules mandate that we charge VAT on certain carbon saving products like solar panels and the rate was due to go up to 20%. There may genuinely be opportunities here. I voted remain but this shows that there are areas where EU regs inhibit the ability to make positive changes in some areas.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: madasafish on November 20, 2019, 05:55:52 PM
The problem is, something has to be done if OUR world is to survive. And what has to be done will not be easy, popular or welcomed. The Greens ideas are good, it is just the implementing of them that is the problem.
We will eventually have to give up on our petrol and diesel vehicles, gas central heating will have to go and wind and wave will eventually have to supply our energy. At least, here in the UK, we are never far from tidal energy, and it is reliable and constant.

I accept climate change is man made.

So teh FIRST and BASIC - sorry for shouting but it's obvious- thing to do is stop population growth. As more people mean more heating, more housing and building and more energy use..
No point in reducing energy use by 20% and then increasing the population by 16% over the next 50 years..

"The UK population is projected to pass 70 million by mid 2031, reaching 72.4 million by 25 years into the projection (mid 2043)."

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationprojections/bulletins/nationalpopulationprojections/2018based

Currently it is c 67M.. So an 8% increase in 25 years -and roughly 16% in 50 years..

Surprisingly enough NoOne says so..

(I avoid talking why or the political repercussions)

Get teh basics right - solve the main issue as well as tackle the seconday ones..

Will not happen - too many sacred cows in the way...
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on November 20, 2019, 06:35:35 PM
UK population growth is driven by immigration more than childbirth. So those people populate the world, wherever they live.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on November 20, 2019, 06:47:30 PM
UK population growth is driven by immigration more than childbirth. So those people populate the world, wherever they live.

It is driven by immigration and immigrant childbirth ( immigrants tend to have much larger families than white anglo saxon protestants - WASPS ).

Not sure what your point is about 'those people people populate the world wherever they live' -  of course we all live on the same planet but an increase in any country is bad news for use of resources and pollution, and a lot of food in UK is imported so increase in UK has repercussions for land use in countries as far away as New Zealand and Argentina.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: richardfrost on November 22, 2019, 03:27:58 AM
Yes, they are talking about soya products instead of meat, but soya production has led to massive amounts of Brazil's deforestation. I am glad I have not long to go as the thought of going vegetarian makes me puke (I am a Scot, my 5 a day is 5 portions of chips).
Well chips are vegetarian aren’t they?  ::) ;D
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: sparky Paul on November 22, 2019, 09:11:24 AM
Well chips are vegetarian aren’t they?  ::) ;D

Maybe not in beef dripping!  ;)
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2019, 09:21:17 AM
No, no. I am on a health kick. Deep fried in Vegetable Oil.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: peteo48 on November 22, 2019, 10:11:14 AM
I've got Type 2 Diabetes (just over the line so medication not required). Anyway, Jocko, went to a presentation at my local surgery by a GP who specialises in diabetes. Butter and Lard back on the menu - low fat spreads off!!!

The new mantra is "Fat is my friend" - not sugar or milk chocolate though so deep fried Mars Bars not allowed ???
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2019, 10:25:01 AM
I am back losing weight, and I eat quite a lot of fat in my diet. It is the Carbs I try to avoid. They are the culprit. Many years ago the doctor would tell you to stay off the bread, potatoes and sugar. Then a doctor, with some US board of health, decided carbs were healthy (since refuted by evidence). The US government ran with it and the obesity epidemic started. Despite worldwide proof otherwise, and the findings of many UK doctors, the NHS still advocate carbs for losing weight
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on November 22, 2019, 11:32:29 AM
I've got Type 2 Diabetes (just over the line so medication not required). Anyway, Jocko, went to a presentation at my local surgery by a GP who specialises in diabetes. Butter and Lard back on the menu - low fat spreads off!!!

The new mantra is "Fat is my friend" - not sugar or milk chocolate though so deep fried Mars Bars not allowed ???

Due to a flawed heart disease trial in the 1960's the advice has been 'fat is the devil, it will kill you' - since then many trials have been done that say the cholesterol in our food is a tiny fraction of the cholesterol our liver makes every day - and cholesterol is needed by our body and there is no such thing as good and bad cholesterol - but the 'fat is bad message still ruthlessly pushed by medical establishment'  truth is there is an awful lot of cholesterol needed by our body,  and our brain especially. Now there are studies linking statins ( those pills the doctors can't wait to get everyone in the country popping every day ) to brain degeneration ( alzheimers ).   Sugar and caffeine are the real enemies - the first goes straight to body fat and the second messes with you blood glucose big-time and can exhaust your insulin production capacity.  My doctor did an HBA1c blood test last year and i was just nudging over into pre-diabetes - so I bought a blood glucose tester and decided to test myself a couple of times a day for a month to see what affected my blood glucose - first thing in a morning and more than 2 hours after meals it was pretty much always nearer 5 than 6, - its all to do with the glyceamic index ( GI ) of foods and sugar and starches are the worst,  but also caffiene gives a higher reading.  I have lost a couple of stone ( was never really fat,  BMI was 29 ) and now just over 12 stone and things looking good,  but I eat lots of fat and will soak up the bacon fat with bread - yummmmmm.  Off sugar completely and only decaff tea and coffee. 
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: sparky Paul on November 22, 2019, 11:42:23 AM
I am back losing weight

Me too Jocko, perhaps we could start a support group  ;D
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2019, 11:50:51 AM
Have a look here.

https://www.fatsecret.co.uk/ (https://www.fatsecret.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: richardfrost on November 22, 2019, 02:00:03 PM
I am back losing weight

Me too Jocko, perhaps we could start a support group  ;D

Gotta improve the MPG also!
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: peteo48 on November 22, 2019, 03:16:40 PM
I am back losing weight

Me too Jocko, perhaps we could start a support group  ;D

Gotta improve the MPG also!

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: peteo48 on November 22, 2019, 03:20:30 PM
Isn't it something like every 100 pounds of weight can save up to 2%.

I might start billing the wife for all the lifts I give her!
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on November 22, 2019, 04:30:34 PM
No point in doing away with the spare wheel then carrying 100 lbs extra weight.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: sparky Paul on November 25, 2019, 09:02:28 PM
Programme on BBC1 just starting now, "Meat : A Threat To Our Planet?"
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Basil on November 26, 2019, 09:20:56 AM
[reference to deleted post removed by Admin]

The human digestive system is far closer to that of most plant eating animals than that of carnivorous animals.

It's a personal choice but people chose NOT to eat meat for a variety of reasons, animal welfare, the environment, their health and fitness.

The only reason people choose to eat meat is because they've grown up eating it and have got used to the taste, there is no nutritional requirement to eat it.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: ColinB on November 26, 2019, 10:59:08 AM
Here’s a conundrum (albeit slightly off topic, but relevant to the last few posts). Certain shoe shops sell shoes labelled “vegan friendly”. Presumably these don’t use animal products, but of course the leather has been replaced with plastic. Is it really better to use virtually indestructible plastic rather than biodegradable animal products ? Especially if it can be demonstrated that those animals have been reared in a humane and environmentally friendly way. Same issue arises in the real fur vs faux (aka plastic) fur debate.

On the “don’t eat meat” issue, there was an interesting piece in Countryfile on Sunday. The argument seemed to be that all beef farmers (in particular) are being tarred with the same brush and that’s penalising those who are trying to do the right things. Yes, it’s bad to slash & burn the rain forests to create pasture for beef, but producers in developed countries (eg UK) are well past that point and their beef industries are generally well-managed for minimal impact. But they’re being put out of business because of the “all beef is bad” publicity. That suggests the responsible way forward is to cut down on beef, but make sure you know where the stuff you do consume comes from.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: peteo48 on November 26, 2019, 11:05:19 AM
Think that is definitely the way to go Colin. The approach we have adopted is to keep our spending levels on meat the same but go for better quality and provenance. This means we eat less but also means we support British farmers who are trying to do the right thing.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on November 26, 2019, 11:50:43 AM
[reference to deleted post removed by Admin]


With meat and dairy, eggs etc. it is a case of letting other creatures ( lower down the food chain ) do the grafting and foraging and reap the benefits by eating the end product - simple really and it is why the food chain exists - otherwise there would be just plants and humans on the planet.    Just try eating grass, leaves and berries for a couple of weeks ( non of that highly processed plant stuff like Tofu ) and see how you go on that. And don't forget until farming became the norm humans had to be nomadic like a lot of other animals and follow the food, which in the case of plants is very seasonal - farming and animal husbandry meant we could form permanent settlements and  freed us from the vagaries of nature - letting us progress into what we are today - if we had stayed as vegetarians we would maybe still be living a subsistence lifestyle.  Sure people have the choice of being vegan and vegetarian today and many suffer health problems as a result and go back to eating animal products.

https://time.com/4252373/meat-eating-veganism-evolution/

Now here's a thought,  if humans go vegetarian we will also produce more methane, 9 billion + and counting veggie humans will produce way more gas than the cows, and ULEZ areas like London may have to ban humans. There will be signs up allowing omnivores in but 'sorry no vegans and veggies '...
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Basil on November 26, 2019, 12:37:41 PM
I think you are wrong about lots of vegetarians and vegans who suffer health problems and have to go back to eating animal products, it's quite the opposite in my experience.

Athletes are also discovering they can perform better and are able to recover more quickly on a plant based diet.

As I said it's a personal choice but the program last night was not about eating meat or not it was about the sheer scale of the meat industry worldwide, cows now emit more greenhouse gas than all forms of transport combined.

Brazil being the biggest producer/exporter of beef worldwide, they continually clear vast areas of rain forest for the production of animal feed used throughout Europe, including the UK.





Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: peteo48 on November 26, 2019, 03:40:10 PM
I think there can be an issue, if you go vegetarian or vegan, of getting the right balance of nutrients but this is just a matter of education.

That said I used to work with a chap who was a vegetarian because he didn't like the idea of animals being killed for food. When I asked him if it was for health reasons he said he had an extremely unhealthy diet eating mainly cheese and onion pasties and chips!
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: madasafish on November 27, 2019, 01:33:11 PM
Programme on BBC1 just starting now, "Meat : A Threat To Our Planet?"

If humans were meant to be vegetarian we would have 3 stomachs like vegetarian animals.  The fact is that carnivores can eat once a week and lie around in the sun all day but vegetarian animals need to spend most of the day ( and some of the night ) eating - and are generally of lower intelligence than carnivores... just like green party members.

Thanks
I watched it..

Now I am in favour of protecting and improving our environment and have no doubt of the correctnes  of the message of teh program that current meat growing mthods are uunsustainable.

But I thought the way the program was presenetd -with Liz Bronin showing her views from teh very start - were DESIGNED to offend meat eaters..

And farmers..

And it concentrated on US farming which is irreleant to us UK citizens,.. (we cannot alter it in any way)..
No mention of UK farming at all.

And a piece of a Welsh droput growing chickens  in the country telling us this was teh way to go.. As if the 50million people living in cities  have the land to do that.

And as for getting in touch with how our food ids grown.. Butchers have been selling meat for centuries..Now supermarkkets..- No one is allowed to kill animals for slaughter - they have to go to an abattoir..

I thought it was so thoroughly biased - mind made up - as to be counterproductive..


(Sprry for typos .. broken  glasses)

It's like listening to fanatical vegans telling me that honey  should not be eaten as it'ss "exploiting the bees"  I am a beekeeper..With nothing against vegans ..live and let live...
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on November 27, 2019, 02:21:19 PM
Any method of food production is unsustainable with present levels of population - it is the elephant in the room ( one of the few elephants left due to humans taking their habitat away for farming ). I have said that the only way to save the planet is to get rid of humans, and nature will do that sooner rather than later...
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: richardfrost on November 27, 2019, 02:39:37 PM
Any method of food production is unsustainable with present levels of population - it is the elephant in the room ( one of the few elephants left due to humans taking their habitat away for farming ). I have said that the only way to save the planet is to get rid of humans, and nature will do that sooner rather than later...
I'm going to disagree with you and agree with you.

Elephants have plenty of habitat. They are just being hunted to death.

However, I agree that the planet will survive. Humanity might not though. We are going the way of the dinosaurs.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: JimSh on November 27, 2019, 03:07:06 PM


And it concentrated on US farming which is irreleant to us UK citizens,.. (we cannot alter it in any way)..
No mention of UK farming at all.
I must admit that I didn't watch the programme, since I suspected from the previews that the presentation would be a bit one sided.
However factory type farming of the American kind is more prevalent in the UK than Countryfile would indicate and once we get rid of "these pesky EU regulations" is likely to become even more so.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/17/uk-has-nearly-800-livestock-mega-farms-investigation-reveals

https://www.ciwf.org.uk/factory-farming/

Last Edit Added inverted commas
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on November 27, 2019, 04:46:59 PM
Any method of food production is unsustainable with present levels of population - it is the elephant in the room ( one of the few elephants left due to humans taking their habitat away for farming ). I have said that the only way to save the planet is to get rid of humans, and nature will do that sooner rather than later...
I'm going to disagree with you and agree with you.

Elephants have plenty of habitat. They are just being hunted to death.

However, I agree that the planet will survive. Humanity might not though. We are going the way of the dinosaurs.

Elephant are coming into conflict with farmers and all their migration routes are being closed off,  sure they are hunted as well - but even if they weren't their way of life has been changed forever by fences and humans.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Basil on November 29, 2019, 12:58:39 PM
I watched the program and the presenter was a meat eater who was shocked to see the scale of meat production in the USA and the devastating effects in South America. They were just trying to show people what's happening to the planet,  it can no longer be ignored or blamed on population.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: madasafish on November 29, 2019, 02:22:37 PM
The US population at 327M is about 5 times larger than the UK. So by definition they will produce a LOT more food..

She was being melodramatic..
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Basil on November 30, 2019, 10:04:15 AM
But you are missing the point, they don't need to consume that much meat, it's not sustainable and is destroying the planet.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on November 30, 2019, 11:43:23 AM
Personally, I will continue to eat meat until prevented from doing so, either by law, price, or the flood water preventing me getting to the butchers.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: madasafish on November 30, 2019, 12:02:27 PM
But you are missing the point, they don't need to consume that much meat, it's not sustainable and is destroying the planet.

And what influence  do we -the viewers of a BBC program deigned for UK viewers - have on the US and their meat eating?
None.

So all the entire program was a virtue signalling exercise with zero constructive output and of no use except to sneer at US farming practices..
Now as a hobby beekeeper, I would agree some of Us commercial bee farming is pretty poor - and the best is very good- but it's up to the Amercians to sort that out. No way would I - or other UK beekeepers - attempt  to tell teh US what to do.



Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Basil on November 30, 2019, 07:21:26 PM
I don't think anyone is suggesting we should all stop eating meat, like I will no longer eat meat, it's a personal choice we all have to make.

The program was just showing how excessive meat consumption is another contributing factor to the damage humans are doing to the planet and it's not confined to the USA, a lot of land in South America is being cleared for animal feed destined for Europe. 

Meat consumption has gone up massively over the last 20 years or so and reducing our meat consumption would be another way we could help reduce this damage.

My main reason for not eating meat is that I don't want animals to be killed for my plate, I'm quite happy with my current diet and I wish I'd stopped years ago.

I realise it's a sensitive subject and I don't want to keep going on about it so sorry if I've offended anyone.

Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on November 30, 2019, 08:59:27 PM
I hope science never discovers that plants have feelings - some people may starve...
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: sparky Paul on November 30, 2019, 09:42:37 PM
My main reason for not eating meat is that I don't want animals to be killed for my plate, I'm quite happy with my current diet and I wish I'd stopped years ago.

I realise it's a sensitive subject and I don't want to keep going on about it so sorry if I've offended anyone.

I find it an interesting discussion, and I think we can all respect your personal decision not to eat meat for moral reasons.

I still eat meat, and although we enjoy both vegetarian and meat dishes, we eat quite a bit less than we did a few years ago. I used to buy all my meat from an excellent mobile butcher who could tell you exactly which Lincolnshire farm the meat came from, sadly closed down as the owner passed away last year. It is difficult to source meat with a known provenance, unless you are prepared to pay premium prices.

I have reared and killed poultry for our own consumption, but I can understand that it's not an option for everybody. Contrary to what was said earlier in the thread, it is perfectly legal to kill and prepare your own animals for food on your own property, so long as it's for your own consumption and you use a legal method of dispatch.

If people feel that they should eat less meat, but are conflicted, I would say to look for higher welfare, locally produced meat. It's going to be more expensive, but some of the mass produced stuff out there is just rubbish. Go for something better quality, and eat less of it.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on November 30, 2019, 09:52:46 PM
My main reason for not eating meat is that I don't want animals to be killed for my plate
I would happily stop eating meat, for the very same reason, but I do like vegetables. I don't even like quorn or the like, that is meant to taste like meat. However, once scientists are able to grow meat in the laboratory, I will happily eat that instead.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: sparky Paul on November 30, 2019, 10:04:09 PM
once scientists are able to grow meat in the laboratory, I will happily eat that instead.
I'm pretty sure that will be coming soon. If you could see how complex and time consuming the process is to produce tofu or quorn, it's not hard to imagine the processes being used in labs to 'grow' meat being scaled up to mass production.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on December 01, 2019, 09:06:28 AM
https://healthyeating.sfgate.com/eating-soy-increase-estrogen-production-2870.html

Problem with eating Soya products is that they are full of phytoeostrogen ( female hormone, opposite of testosterone) and just like men who worked in chicken factories used to grow boobs ( because of female hormones fed to chickens to promote growth ),  men who eat soya are liable to get a squeaky voice and have bigger boobs than their wife / girlfriend..... People like to talk about hormones in American beef but a teaspoon of tofu has more hormones than a 20 ounce steak.   It is recommended that women going through menopause increase their consumption of soya to replace lost hormones.   

Soya beans are processed to remove the oil to make bio-diesel and Soya milk etc  and then the remaining waste bean paste is made into foodstuffs like tofu and cattle food.  People like to say that land is cleared to grow for soya beans to feed cattle - but the cattle only get the waste 'cake' after the valuable oil has been removed - without cattle to eat it the cake may be thrown away.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Basil on December 01, 2019, 10:17:40 AM
Soy has been a major staple in Asian cultures for centuries, and their incidence of coronary artery disease, hypertension, ischemic stroke, hormone-dependent cancers, osteoporosis, postmenopausal hip fracture, diabetes, and obesity are all markedly lower than what is in the Western world.

Soy contains a form of plant estrogen called isoflavones, but these phytochemicals aren’t the same thing as human estrogen. They’re natural, nonsteroidal compounds sometimes called phytoestrogens, which are also found in flax seeds, sesame seeds, garlic, peanuts, beer, and more.

Even though soy isoflavones have properties similar to human estrogen, evidence suggests that they actually have beneficial anti-estrogenic effects in breast tissue, while also having beneficial estrogen-mimicking effects in bone tissue.

Soy cultivation is a major driver of deforestation in the Amazon basin. Seeds from the soybean plant provide high protein animal feed for livestock, and 80% of Amazon soy is destined for animal feed; smaller percentages are used for oil or eaten directly. Today Brazil has 24-25 million hectares devoted to the growth of this crop, and is currently the second largest producer of soybeans in the world.

Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on December 01, 2019, 10:52:21 AM
Just a question that popped into my head. If the entire world was to turn vegetarian, would we have enough land (never mind fertile land) to grow all the foodstuffs we would require to feed 7.7 billion souls?
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on December 01, 2019, 11:01:47 AM
Answered my own question. It takes a minimum of 5 acres to feed a vegetarian.

https://www.primalsurvivor.net/much-land-need-self-sufficient/ (https://www.primalsurvivor.net/much-land-need-self-sufficient/)

With 7.7 billion vegetarians that would require 38.5 billion acres of quality land, having adequate rainfall, and a long growing season.
The TOTAL acreage of the earth is 36.8 billion acres, so something would have to give!
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Basil on December 01, 2019, 11:26:18 AM
That's a bad sign that is Jocko, answering your own questions !

Out of interest, how many acres does it take to feed a meat eater ?
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Basil on December 01, 2019, 11:41:36 AM
I'm starting to do it myself now !

I haven't found the answer to my question but found an article in The Independent about a study by Cambridge University:

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/veganism-environmental-impact-planet-reduced-plant-based-diet-humans-study-a8378631.html

This bit mentions electric cars and sustainable farming:

“A vegan diet is probably the single biggest way to reduce your impact on planet Earth, not just greenhouse gases, but global acidification, eutrophication, land use and water use.
“It is far bigger than cutting down on your flights or buying an electric car,” he explained, which would only reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

“Avoiding consumption of animal products delivers far better environmental benefits than trying to purchase sustainable meat and dairy,” he added.


Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on December 01, 2019, 11:54:33 AM
Out of interest, how many acres does it take to feed a meat eater ?
The average US consumer today requires more than 2.5 acres of land each year to sustain his or her current diet.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: madasafish on December 01, 2019, 12:24:41 PM
Out of interest, how many acres does it take to feed a meat eater ?
The average US consumer today requires more than 2.5 acres of land each year to sustain his or her current diet.

SO half a vegetarian..
Save the planet - eat more meat.. :-\


I am only joking..

What does annoy me - I am a physicist by training - is when p[eopel advocate a course of action to relive a crisis - but don't attempt to quantify  the impacts of their proposal..

At presemt teh UK imports half its own food. If we all went vegan, we would have to import a lot more.. Soya does not grow ell on northern slopes where sheep graze......And teh Amazon would be totally deforested to meat demand...

Don't start me on teh Green Party's carbon neutral by 2030 policy. It is totally unachieavable in any shape or form - unless we stop all immigration, all new births and the sun shines and night and the wind blows all the time.,.. and add in a touch of assisted suicihe - about 20 million will do,

Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Basil on December 01, 2019, 02:44:07 PM
I've not been able to find comparable figures but I've found the following statements which are from the vegetarian society website although they include links to where they get the information from:


And this from the vegan society website:

Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: JimSh on December 01, 2019, 02:45:31 PM

Don't start me on teh Green Party's carbon neutral by 2030 policy. It is totally unachieavable in any shape or form - unless we stop all immigration, all new births and the sun shines and night and the wind blows all the time.,.. and add in a touch of assisted suicihe - about 20 million will do,

It appears to me that none of the parties have a plan for achieving carbon neutrality.
2050, 2040, 2030.
I'll see your 10 years and raise you 10 million trees.
Something must be started now.
At least the Greens have raised awareness and have shamed the main parties into having some green policies.

Last edit Added last sentence
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on December 01, 2019, 04:46:00 PM
Saw a figure once that really shocked me, it takes 440litres of water to make 1 litre of Coca Cola - that includes the irrigation water for the cane sugar.  Saw a program about Mexico the other week,  people in certain areas have used wells to get clean water for hundreds of years, Coca Cola opens a plant nearby and pumps so much water out of the ground that the wells are now running dry.  All so that people can drink high sugar coke and ruin their health... madness,  wonder if extinction rebellion protestors drink coke ? they certainly use bottled gas for cooking and heating their tents....

https://corporate-citizenship.com/2016/09/19/taking-fizz-coca-colas-water-replenishment-claims/
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on December 01, 2019, 05:36:15 PM
More agricultural land is used to raise cattle than all other domesticated animals and crops combined.
You know what they say about statistics. If those cattle feed more people than the rest of the agricultural land then the statement is pointless.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on December 01, 2019, 05:38:38 PM
At least the Greens have raised awareness and have shamed the main parties into having some green policies.
Once Brexit is assured I will switch my allegiance to the Green Party.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on December 01, 2019, 06:18:36 PM
More agricultural land is used to raise cattle than all other domesticated animals and crops combined.
You know what they say about statistics. If those cattle feed more people than the rest of the agricultural land then the statement is pointless.

Yeah, and not all land is suitable for crops, only suitable for grazing sheep and cattle, and sometimes only goats can make a living off it.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: peteo48 on December 01, 2019, 08:18:24 PM
At least the Greens have raised awareness and have shamed the main parties into having some green policies.
Once Brexit is assured I will switch my allegiance to the Green Party.

Interestingly there are a minority of Green Party members who are anti EU. They call themselves "Green Leaves" - I kid you not.

One area, after Brexit, that might benefit Green initiatives, is the escape from "State Aid Rules" - these are one of the reasons why solar panels can't be zero rated for VAT as I understand it.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on December 03, 2019, 10:48:05 AM
China produces more CO2 and Methane than the US, Europe and Japan combined. The UK produces 2% of the worlds total.
If the UK reverted back to the Stone Age, overnight, it would make no difference to global warming. Only a whole world approach will make any difference, and that will never happen. We're all doooomed!
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: richardfrost on December 03, 2019, 12:43:54 PM
We're all doooomed!
We are but the planet isn't. It will get on perfectly fine without us. We will be just another mass extinction in a long line of them. The only unique part being we did it to ourselves.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on December 03, 2019, 01:18:09 PM
We're all doooomed!
We are but the planet isn't. It will get on perfectly fine without us. We will be just another mass extinction in a long line of them. The only unique part being we did it to ourselves.

Yeah 100% correct.... the planet will be better off without us messing things up...
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on December 03, 2019, 01:19:01 PM
You see how nature proliferated in the Chernobyl exclusion zone. Yes, the Earth will go on and I expect mankind will carry on in odd pockets, possibly living as our forefathers did. After all, birds are what are left of the dinosaurs.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: guest4871 on December 03, 2019, 01:32:54 PM
I'm sure my Honda Jazz will just keep soldiering  :D
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on December 03, 2019, 01:33:29 PM
https://unite2leave.co.uk/#/england

Interesting guide to how you should tactically vote in England to ensure Brexit happens
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on December 03, 2019, 01:46:17 PM
Interesting guide to how you should tactically vote in England to ensure Brexit happens
Don't really see how that pertains to saving the planet.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: madasafish on December 03, 2019, 02:02:26 PM
Interesting guide to how you should tactically vote in England to ensure Brexit happens
Don't really see how that pertains to saving the planet.

It's simple.
Brexit cures all known problems.

Too high taxes? Brexit will sort it.
Too low spending?Brexit will sort it

Too few nurses? Brexit will sort it
Too many immigrants?Brexit will sort it

Food prices too high? Brexit will sort it
Farmers losing EU food subsidies? Brexit will sort it
Fishing areas overfished? Brexit will sort it

And so on

(all based on real political promises.. I am not making it up)



See also
The pound in your pocket will not be devalued . H WIlson.
There are WMD in Iraw. A Blair.
No Tory boom and bust (promised several times)  G Brown
We will cut immigration into the UK..D Cameron


There is a clear pattern there.. 

Anyone believing  the promises of a politician? Naive and a fool..
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: JimSh on December 03, 2019, 02:56:32 PM
Interesting guide to how you should tactically vote in England to ensure Brexit happens
Don't really see how that pertains to saving the planet.

It's simple.
Brexit cures all known problems.

Too high taxes? Brexit will sort it.
Too low spending?Brexit will sort it

Too few nurses? Brexit will sort it
Too many immigrants?Brexit will sort it

Food prices too high? Brexit will sort it
Farmers losing EU food subsidies? Brexit will sort it
Fishing areas overfished? Brexit will sort it

And so on

(all based on real political promises.. I am not making it up)


Fix it or fux it ?
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: JimSh on December 03, 2019, 03:00:10 PM
I'm sure my Honda Jazz will just keep soldiering  :D
Cockroaches in Honda Jazzes.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: JimSh on December 03, 2019, 03:18:41 PM
China produces more CO2 and Methane than the US, Europe and Japan combined. The UK produces 2% of the worlds total.
If the UK reverted back to the Stone Age, overnight, it would make no difference to global warming. Only a whole world approach will make any difference, and that will never happen. We're all doooomed!
UK, USA and mainland Europe ran up heavy carbon accounts in 19th and 20th centuries and latterly by outsourcing heavy industry to the Far East.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on December 03, 2019, 03:57:09 PM
We used to do a lot of parts for JLR and other car makers,  they used to claim they were greener because they didn't move the parts around themselves but used third party haulage companies to move the stuff ( instead of their own wagons like they used to ) - so the transport carbon went off their companies books and onto the transport company - talk about fudging it... and this happens so often it is just not funny...
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: guest4871 on December 03, 2019, 05:12:14 PM
China produces more CO2 and Methane than the US, Europe and Japan combined. The UK produces 2% of the worlds total.
If the UK reverted back to the Stone Age, overnight, it would make no difference to global warming. Only a whole world approach will make any difference, and that will never happen. We're all doooomed!
UK, USA and mainland Europe ran up heavy carbon accounts in 19th and 20th centuries and latterly by outsourcing heavy industry to the Far East.

CO2 emissions were pretty level from the 1800s until the 1960s, since when they have quadrupled mostly from huge population growth and industrialisation in poor countries like China, India, Brazil and Indonesia (and Central Africa without the industrialisation) which has wildly improved their local standard of living (whilst the standard of living of the developed world has stagnated) and, of course, from hugely increased consumer consumption across the world since the 1950's.

It is interesting to match a graph of the increase in CO2 and a graph the increase in world population since, say, 1800.

The UK's 2% must be well within the range of experimental inaccuracy of the world estimates.

No one in these conversations mentions the action of the cycles of the Sun on the Earth's climate. Until that is included these conversations about CO2 are pretty meaningless as CO2 production is only one of many issues.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on December 03, 2019, 05:40:40 PM
UK, USA and mainland Europe ran up heavy carbon accounts in 19th and 20th centuries and latterly by outsourcing heavy industry to the Far East.
Cannot do a lot about what went before, especially things that happened before scientists realised what was happening with global warming.
As for outsourcing heavy industry to the Far East, I think that was a choice we would have preferred not to have been forced into.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: madasafish on December 03, 2019, 07:05:35 PM
China produces more CO2 and Methane than the US, Europe and Japan combined. The UK produces 2% of the worlds total.
If the UK reverted back to the Stone Age, overnight, it would make no difference to global warming. Only a whole world approach will make any difference, and that will never happen. We're all doooomed!
UK, USA and mainland Europe ran up heavy carbon accounts in 19th and 20th centuries and latterly by outsourcing heavy industry to the Far East.

CO2 emissions were pretty level from the 1800s until the 1960s, since when they have quadrupled mostly from huge population growth and industrialisation in poor countries like China, India, Brazil and Indonesia (and Central Africa without the industrialisation) which has wildly improved their local standard of living (whilst the standard of living of the developed world has stagnated) and, of course, from hugely increased consumer consumption across the world since the 1950's.

It is interesting to match a graph of the increase in CO2 and a graph the increase in world population since, say, 1800.

The UK's 2% must be well within the range of experimental inaccuracy of the world estimates.

No one in these conversations mentions the action of the cycles of the Sun on the Earth's climate. Until that is included these conversations about CO2 are pretty meaningless as CO2 production is only one of many issues.
[/b]

Well those appear to have little credibility..

I still have forecasts of solar cycles and a globall ice age coming.. from the 1970s..

I suspect volcanic dust## pays a far greater part... and what's our record on forcasting volcanic activity like? Non existent..

### From largescale eruptions... - or the eimpacts of a large comet or meteor..
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on December 07, 2019, 06:33:06 PM
My mother-in-law is 95, infirm, and has forgotten how to sign her name. And is devastated that she will not be able to vote on Thursday! How many of the younger generation are that enthused?
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: madasafish on December 07, 2019, 08:03:34 PM
I have a choice :
A party run by a profligate perpetual liar
Or a party run by an innumerate spendthrift:
or a party run by a leader who is deluded enough to claim  they will go from 19 or so seats to 330+ to form a Government - in one election!:
or a party which thinks they can defy the laws of physics and still keep power flowing.

Hung Parliament please: none deserves to form a Government..Some deserve to go to jail. And others back to kindergarden.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on December 08, 2019, 10:06:16 AM
Well we know the spendthrift labour party ( buy peoples votes with taxpayers money and will continue spending until they run out of other peoples money ).  Corbyns plan to compensate WASPI womens pensions is against EU law ( the higher womens pension age was introduced in 2010 to comply with EU gender equity laws in ---- Council Directive 79/7/EEC of 19 December 1978 on the progressive implementation of the principle of equal treatment for men and women in matters of social security) so if we remain within the customs union and single market as Labour want ( ie - do not leave the EU and still subject to ECJ ) then it will be breaking EU law to compensate the WASPI's..... They just do not think things through - in fact state aid and re-nationalisation that Labour are all so fond of will all break EU law - and Labour don't actually want to leave - all their front bench are remainers and we really still do not know what Corbyn feels ( except he has been a eurosceptic for all of his time in politics ) - Labour is massively losing votes in the midlands and the north to conservative and brexit party, lib-dem has become a toxic brand ( they removed Jo Swinson from their leaflets etc.) due to their complete ignorance of what 'democratic' means.

'Labour has sought formal legal advice that Jeremy Corbyn will still be able to implement one of his flagship election pledges if he keeps the UK in the European Union. The Sunday Telegraph understands that a QC has provided the party with advice on the legality of creating a nationalised broadband service, under state aid rules and other relevant laws.'
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: Jocko on December 08, 2019, 11:35:44 AM
Watched "The Andrew Marr Show" this morning and Labour's Gloria De Piero was on. She said God forbid than Labour lose but it looked like they were about to lose "The Red Wall", in the north of England.
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: JimSh on December 08, 2019, 12:24:26 PM
I have a choice :
A party run by a profligate perpetual liar
Or a party run by an innumerate spendthrift:
or a party run by a leader who is deluded enough to claim  they will go from 19 or so seats to 330+ to form a Government - in one election!:
or a party which thinks they can defy the laws of physics and still keep power flowing.

Hung Parliament please: none deserves to form a Government..Some deserve to go to jail. And others back to kindergarden.

Seems like the thread has shifted away from the OP.
I know what you mean though. Perhaps they should have another box saying none of the above.
I've got an easy straight forward binary choice between this:-

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Alyn+Smith+Leave+a+light+on+in+the+window&view=detail&mid=50DA2300213CBE6A5A9150DA2300213CBE6A5A91&FORM=VIRE
and this.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=stephen+kerr+mp&&view=detail&mid=B979E680C0E12FEE909FB979E680C0E12FEE909F&&FORM=VRDGAR

No contest.

Edit Swopped order of  videos round in case folk gave up during the Stephen Kerr one and didn't bother watching the Alyn Smith one.
 
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: culzean on December 17, 2019, 09:42:18 PM
Congratulations to Boris Johnson for reading the mood of electorate so much better than Comrade Jezza ( who did not read it at all).

Well greens still only have one MP, LibDums lost their least liberal but most dumb MP ( Jo Swinson ) and ended up with less seats, SNP got more seats but not as many as 2015 and still got less than 50% of the vote,  and UK including Scotland now leaving EU at end of January.. and Boris can do what he likes now,  although some stupid labour MPs still saying that they will vote against a hard Brexit - they still don'r realise it matters not one whit how they vote now,  it won't make a shred of difference - they had their chance and badly let down their 60% leave voters so they are out of government now for forseeable future - the take-away message is  'do not mess with democracy'.

Labour have only won 3 elections since 1979 ( under Tony Blair ) compared to 8 won by Conservatives.

The NHS has been under Tory control for much of its existence.

Liam Byrne left a message in treasury in 2010 saying 'there is no money left' - it is true that labour keep spending until they run out of other peoples money ( but Tony Blair still managed to saddle the taxpayer with future huge debt from PFI - which is part of the reason NHS is in financial difficulties - it cost about £300billion to build £50billion worth of new hospitals, and the trusts are still paying huge rent to private investor mates of Tony B Liar ). Who would have thought two scots could have trashed the UK economy so badly ?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/long_reads/pfi-banks-barclays-hsbc-rbs-tony-blair-gordon-brown-carillion-capita-financial-crash-a8202661.html
Title: Re: Green Party Manifesto
Post by: sparky Paul on December 19, 2019, 12:28:26 PM
...and yet 48% of the population voted for deal / no deal pro-brexit parties, 52% voted for stop brexit / 2nd referendum parties. Go figure.

They'll never learn from PFI. It never stopped after 2010, in fact Osborne started 61 new PFI projects worth £6.9bln in the first year of parliament, double the annual number started under Labour - and much higher than Labour's peak of PFI contracts in 2000 at £4.6bln.

These 'new' hospitals promised by Boris are all rumoured to be PFI financed.

Nothing's changed, governments are still too scared to keep borrowing 'on the books'.