Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: Botak on April 06, 2023, 11:11:48 AM

Title: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Botak on April 06, 2023, 11:11:48 AM
If anyone is interested in how the 12V battery is coping with a long stand-still, I provide here some information.
We are used to spend the winter in warmer regions then Holland and so our Jazz is left alone in our garage for the whole period. The garage does not have electricity, so it is impossible to trickle charge the battery. The battery does cope very well.
The first time the data ware : at departure the battery measured 12,8V, at return, two and a half month later, it was 11,9V. After a trip for an hour the charge (next day) was 12,6V.
The second time (this year) after a sty of almost three months, it was: at departure 12,6V and at return 11,6. The car started up without help from a jumpstarter. The charge the day after the charge-up trip was 12,4V.
I assume the battery will hold on for another winter (or 2?) what more is than I expected.
I would not recommand anyone to follow my example and (mis)treat the battery (and car?) the way I do, but my conclusion is that the small 12V battery is quite sturdy and holds up very well. A stand still of a few of weeks should not cause any problem. 
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: nowster on April 06, 2023, 12:51:54 PM
On the other hand, the manual recommends running the car for a minimum of 30 minutes every three months to condition the high voltage LiIon battery.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Jazzik on April 06, 2023, 01:21:06 PM
the manual recommends running the car for a minimum of 30 minutes every three months

at return, two and a half month later
The second time (this year) after a sty of almost three months

So, this was (https://em-content.zobj.net/thumbs/120/sony/336/thumbs-up_medium-skin-tone_1f44d-1f3fd_1f3fd.png)
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Whiteshark on April 06, 2023, 02:14:09 PM
Really interested to read this as I am going away to Australia for 7 weeks soon, so now happy to know all should be ok. However my Merc will be left on the CTek, not a chance that will last.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Kremmen on April 06, 2023, 03:08:43 PM
Odd that some have a long lasting 12v but some have had theirs go flat.

I don't risk it and do a CTEK after 2 weeks non use.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Jazzik on April 06, 2023, 04:42:51 PM
Long, long ago, Lidl had these 2 devices on offer:

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSprrmPM12WQQYmaGmZfgOkKxxzEvSaoVHKsg&usqp=CAU)  (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRwjuJCcTateHFb_Vl5kq3Z3UqAUc_GcSZ4bw&usqp=CAU)

The right one has been used regularly since the purchase, the left one is in its original packaging somewhere in the garage and is collecting dust: has never been used...
And that while we have been driving a hybrid with such a (too) small battery for almost 6 years now...
Is it necessary to say that we have never (until now... (https://em-content.zobj.net/thumbs/120/sony/336/crossed-fingers_medium-skin-tone_1f91e-1f3fd_1f3fd.png) ) been confronted with an empty battery?
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: coravel on April 06, 2023, 05:50:14 PM
If anyone is interested in how the 12V battery is coping with a long stand-still, I provide here some information.
We are used to spend the winter in warmer regions then Holland and so our Jazz is left alone in our garage for the whole period. The garage does not have electricity, so it is impossible to trickle charge the battery. The battery does cope very well.
The first time the data ware : at departure the battery measured 12,8V, at return, two and a half month later, it was 11,9V. After a trip for an hour the charge (next day) was 12,6V.
The second time (this year) after a sty of almost three months, it was: at departure 12,6V and at return 11,6. The car started up without help from a jumpstarter. The charge the day after the charge-up trip was 12,4V.
I assume the battery will hold on for another winter (or 2?) what more is than I expected.
I would not recommand anyone to follow my example and (mis)treat the battery (and car?) the way I do, but my conclusion is that the small 12V battery is quite sturdy and holds up very well. A stand still of a few of weeks should not cause any problem.


I also left my one year old Jazz to go on a two and a half month cruise to South America but mine was flat as a pancake when I returned. To be fair, I called Honda Assist and they sent out the AA who charged the car to over 51% and suggested I took it for a 30 minute run.  My car has a very low mileage so perhaps I was expecting too much! 
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Whiteshark on April 06, 2023, 08:15:38 PM
I think it may be prudent to make sure the battery is fully charged before I leave. The reason the Mercs and my Lexus before that,  would only ever last max 2 weeks, is  because they are full of electronics that are live and draining the system. I don’t think the Jazz comes into that category, plus of course the hybrid batteries are actually used for starting rather than the 12v which only needs to energise the electrics.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Kremmen on April 07, 2023, 04:19:19 AM
The one thing to remember is that if you allow any 12v to become fully discharged it will not hold a charge, even after many hours on charge.

My Mrs left our new Metro sidelights on overnight. Dead battery, and even after a 12 hour battery charge and a 200 mile trip the battery would still drain fully overnight. New battery problem solved.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: SebastianTR on April 07, 2023, 07:27:52 AM
This is a very changeable topic.
How old is your battery? and how often do you use this car?
These are will affect your battery life
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Kremmen on April 07, 2023, 08:05:52 AM
In our case as this is the Mk4 thread the batteries aren't that old.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Botak on April 07, 2023, 08:57:49 AM
I also left my one year old Jazz to go on a two and a half month cruise to South America but mine was flat as a pancake when I returned.
[/quote]

The very different experience by Coravel I can only explain by (a cumulation) of this causes:
1. A different battery. Is improbable. But for info: the battery in our Jazz is a panosonic 44B19L
2. A different charge of the battery. I always take care that the battery before departure is fully charged (therefore the measurement of the voltage)
3. The type of winter and storage. Our car is stored in a garage, not heated but certainly in the kind of winters as this year in the Netherlands, the temperature will never go below freezing point and usually at a point that is not unpleasant for batteries. And startup was on a sunny day at about 15C (about 60F).
4. The electronics of the car is obliously by a long stay in a kind of deep sleep. To help that I have a protocol that I follow when I store the car. I lock the car the usual way by touching the handle twice (learned on this forum by, if I remember correctly, by Kremmen), than I disconnect the fob from the car by a longpush on both buttons. That way I hope the electronics go to sleep earlier. This is probable technical homeopathy, but if it not works for the car, the placebo works for me.

As an extra info. In the protocol is also that I inflate the tyres at a higher level, at 3 BAR (appr 44 PSI). That way the treads of the tyres will stay fully round despite pushing very long on the same spot of the tyre. Indeed that is the case. However, I will never know if that is the case because of the higher pressure.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: SebastianTR on April 07, 2023, 09:13:47 AM
In our case as this is the Mk4 thread the batteries aren't that old.

it's not old but still depend on usage. You can damage your battery in 3 years. If you keep it always empty or full

A healty battery always has to be in a loop discharge and charge.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: pauly58 on April 07, 2023, 09:24:09 AM
Our's was faulty, & replaced under warranty.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Jazzist on April 07, 2023, 09:44:50 AM
Mine was empty because the GPS module remained on. After an update by the garage and replacement under warranty of the battery, the problem was solved.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Marksla on July 02, 2023, 09:17:17 AM
My 2022 Jazz was dead after 11 days in the airport carpark.  Called out the AA and the battery measured 2.4V !!

Fitted a battery monitor since and even after a drive of 3 hours the battery was down to 12.2V two days later.  I guess there's either battery drain or the battery is faulty.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Kremmen on July 02, 2023, 09:40:59 AM
Once a battery has reached that level of discharge it's dead, internally damaged. No amount of alternator charging can revive it.

If you're lucky, sometimes an intelligent charger can bring it back as the it needs to be charged bottom up starting with a low level stage 1 trickle charge where the alternator can take over.

I've seen many examples where a flat battery has been driven for 200 miles + only to fully discharge overnight.

Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Danoh on July 02, 2023, 11:01:27 AM
Tips for 3 months non-usage appears to be?
> fully charge 12V and run 30 mins to charge Lithium battery
> fully inflate tyres
> angled blocks against tyres, release brakes to avoid rust on brake discs
> after 3 months, start and drive for minimum 30 minutes for the first few days after returning.
> please correct?

But if lucky enough to be away >4 - 6 months, what should be done, if car is left on the drive in the UK?

P/S
OP author=Botak
Your handle "Botak" could translate as "Bald"/"No hair" in a Chinese language?
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: coravel on July 02, 2023, 01:40:00 PM
I left my 2022 Jazz for a full three months earlier this year and came back to find it as dead as a Dodo.  I called out Honda Assist (AKA the AA) and they used some stand alone device to charge it for 30 minutes.  It then started and I was advised to take it for a 20 minute run.  It was due for its first service just a few days later and the report came back to say the battery was in excellent condition. 
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Botak on July 03, 2023, 03:26:48 PM
Your handle "Botak" could translate as "Bald"/"No hair" in a Chinese language?

Indeed, Botak= bald(no hair) in Indonesian/Malaysian. We have some old Indonesian roots in our family.  ;)
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Danoh on July 03, 2023, 09:55:03 PM
Indeed, Botak= bald(no hair) in Indonesian/Malaysian. We have some old Indonesian roots in our family.  ;)

👌
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: CB72 on July 22, 2023, 12:42:33 PM
This flat battery talk is a bit worrying, I have just got a Jazz EX and forward park it in a garage which means I would have no access to engine compartment.  With my old car I would put it in neutral and roll it out of the garage, I don't think this is possible with a hybrid. I can't believe that a modern car would suffer with this problem and not have some sort of battery backup, especially a high tech car like the Jazz.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Bristol_Crosstar on July 23, 2023, 10:06:32 AM
This flat battery talk is a bit worrying, I have just got a Jazz EX and forward park it in a garage which means I would have no access to engine compartment.  With my old car I would put it in neutral and roll it out of the garage, I don't think this is possible with a hybrid. I can't believe that a modern car would suffer with this problem and not have some sort of battery backup, especially a high tech car like the Jazz.
If you're leaving the car for a long time maybe you should reverse park it into the garage?

The 12v battery is only used to power some of the electronics, it's not used to start the petrol engine (this is done by the high power battery) so it has to be pretty low for the car not to switch on. In normal circumstances it's nothing to worry about, it's only if the car is left unused for a long time there could be an issue, then as said elsewhere a trickle charger can be used to get the battery up to full voltage provided you have access to the bonnet and a power point.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Kremmen on July 23, 2023, 10:45:31 AM
Just what I would do .......

I'd hook up my CTEK and connect the power lead to a Kasa or Tapo smartplug and have it come on weekly for a few hours via the Kasa/Tapo schedule facility.

...... assuming you have the wherewithal to perform the live connection.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Lincolnshire Rambler on July 23, 2023, 04:30:08 PM
Just parked my jazz for two weeks at cruise terminal . Upon returning it started as normal and within a few minutes of the engine starting the HV battery charged to 8 bars and then reverted to EV mode before leaving the  city traffic as normal. I did have my AA card in my wallet just in case…🤔
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Kremmen on July 24, 2023, 03:52:55 AM
2 weeks is perfectly OK. I only hook up my charger after 2 weeks of non use.

What I have found is that 2 weeks does result in the trickle charger (CTEK mxs 3.8) taking up to 8 hours to complete. After one week it can complete in 2 or 3 hours.

Edit: had to use my filter bypass trick to stop the "eight)" becoming a smiley face
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Whiteshark on July 24, 2023, 08:11:08 AM
I went to Australia for 7 weeks in May/ June. After advice from here , I made sure the 12 volt  battery was fully charged via CTEK , and the vehicle stays outside all the time. On return , absolutely no problem, started immediately as expected.
I think unless the car is left in a discharged state and/or for long periods, it will rarely cause problems. The Jazz is designed to cope with short local journeys , which I do regularly, and have done with previous models , and never had a problem.
There will always be instances of premature battery failure, but I am sure they are extremely rare, and in no way are of concern to me, in the same way Hondas generally are pretty damm near perfect. I just drive and service on time and check the essentials…….that’s it.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Marksla on July 24, 2023, 08:26:46 AM
Also I'd recommend NOT using the app to check the status of the car, however tempting.  This must drain the 12v a bit with each check.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: John Ratsey on July 24, 2023, 10:09:37 PM
Also I'd recommend NOT using the app to check the status of the car, however tempting.  This must drain the 12v a bit with each check.
The vehicle shuts down the telemetry connection after 5? days of the vehicle not being used in order to reduce the power drain.

A flat 12V battery is a known problem with the Mk 3 HR-V https://www.hondaforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1845 for which there is a software update. Honda, however, will only pay dealers to apply the update after the problem (a fairly random occurrence) has happened, so reports are likely to continue for a while and affect the vehicle's ranking in reliability surveys.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: pasqui on July 25, 2023, 01:21:45 PM
I leave my cars alone for 2-3 months each summer and so far I had no problems with the batteries. I am basically following the suggestions given here, so they definitely work. In addition, I make sure not to switch the alarm on (in my Jaguar this means just one press not two). I am not sure about the Jazz.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: peterhuckle on July 31, 2023, 07:29:56 AM
On my old Fiat Panda I just used to disconnect the battery when leaving it for a long time and reconnect when I returned.  The battery seemed to be able to retain a large enough charge to start the car even after over a year.  Would that be possible on the 12 volt battery of the Jazz to prevent drain from the sleeping electronics?
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Bristol_Crosstar on July 31, 2023, 09:08:12 AM
On my old Fiat Panda I just used to disconnect the battery when leaving it for a long time and reconnect when I returned.  The battery seemed to be able to retain a large enough charge to start the car even after over a year.  Would that be possible on the 12 volt battery of the Jazz to prevent drain from the sleeping electronics?
If there was no power to the electronics the system would probably forget all your settings and effectively do a 'factory reset' when the battery was reconnected so probably not a good idea
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Lord Voltermore on July 31, 2023, 10:14:05 AM
On my old Fiat Panda I just used to disconnect the battery when leaving it for a long time and reconnect when I returned.  The battery seemed to be able to retain a large enough charge to start the car even after over a year.  Would that be possible on the 12 volt battery of the Jazz to prevent drain from the sleeping electronics?


Disconnecting is not a good idea. If the 12v battery is discharging in less than 3 months there may be some DIY solutions.   Regular topping using a mains smart charger.   Or if the car is outdoors  connecting a solar panel charger may give a trickle charge that exceeds ,or delays its natural parasitic electronics  discharge.
 
If you regularly leave the car unused for 1-2 months and have no mains power for a smart charger  it might be possible to temporarily connect a remotely located 12v battery to the cars 12v battery  wired in parallel. This would give 12v but a greater reserve capacity.  I am not an expert so there may be objections to this. 

I carry a portable battery pack   jump starter in the car   The battery is only about the size of a paperback book. Its said to be able to start a conventional car with starter motor so my hope is in an emergency it will easily power up the  12v Jazz electronics long enough for the HV battery to start the car.   But I have never yet needed to use it so cant guarantee it will work. 
Bear in mind that most new cars, including conventional ICE engine ones with large 12v batteries   ,have electronics running 24/7 ,and can flatten their batteries in a matter of weeks or days if they dont get regular long journeys. 

 The biggest obstacle to not using the car for long periods is not the 12v battery  but  the High Voltage battery. Unless the car is driven for at least 30 minutes every 3 months, to put the HV battery through some discharge/recharge cycles, the HV battery can be permanently damaged.  And very expensive to replace.    A 12 Volt battery can also be permanently damaged if allowed to fully discharge but relatively cheap and easy to replace. 
A HV battery charger, costing £1000,s ,only viable for professional garages ,might be able to deal with cars in Long term shortage, but this is beyond  the  ability  of domestic smart chargers etc. 

Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Jazzik on May 01, 2024, 12:00:37 PM
Opened the garage this morning for the first time in months. The Jazz has been parked there since February 20.
Due to (medical) circumstances, the car was not used for 71 days (10 weeks, 2½ months).

When I park the car I always turn off the audio, use "dead" (double) lock" and switch off the key fob.

The HV battery should be safe because it has not been used for less than the 3 months Honda warns for. But how did that little 12 volt battery hold up?
With fingers (also toes and eyes) crossed I pressed the unlock button on the key.
Flashing, mirrors unfolding and everything seems ok.
Foot on the brake, finger on power button... and I see 9 (nine!!?) bars on the left.... HV battery almost full? After such a long time? Indeed!
I have no idea what the voltage of the 12 volt battery was, but it was certainly enough to start the car.

After a drive of about 45 minutes, the Jazz was parked again with peace of mind.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Lord Voltermore on May 01, 2024, 02:37:02 PM
Welcome back Jazzik  .I'd missed you. 
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: coldstart on May 01, 2024, 05:12:30 PM
...
Due to (medical) circumstances, the car was not used for 71 days (10 weeks, 2½ months).
...
With fingers (also toes and eyes) crossed I pressed the unlock button on the key.
Flashing, mirrors unfolding and everything seems ok.

Thank you for the positive feedback on this topic!

And a hearty welcome back! I hope you are well again!
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: John Ratsey on May 02, 2024, 09:55:11 PM
With fingers (also toes and eyes) crossed I pressed the unlock button on the key.
Flashing, mirrors unfolding and everything seems ok.
Foot on the brake, finger on power button... and I see 9 (nine!!?) bars on the left.... HV battery almost full?
Lithium batteries have a very low self discharge rate. New ones are shipped part charged and can sit on shelves for years without dying. In addition, the HV battery in the Honda is disconnected when the vehicle is powered down so there's no risk of any parasitic power drain discharging the HV battery. It's the 12V battery that gets drained.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Botak on May 03, 2024, 01:37:59 PM
The experience of Jazzik is a good cause for me, as the topic-starter, to share our last experience with a long stand still during winter (every time about 2 and a half months). I have already shared the data of the battery-charge of our Jazz in the first 2 years. I can add the figures of this year. For clarity, I give the data of the 3 years together:
2022: departure 12,8V return: 11,9V
2023: departure 12,6 V return:11,6V
2024: departure 12,5V return: 11,7V
Even considering the soft Dutch winters (certainly in a garage), the small 12V battery is quite sturdy. The charge of the battery is deteriorating, but very slowly. And did I first wonder if the battery could cope with one long standstill of 2 and a half months (and was already searching for a fitting EFB-battery for replacement) now my only concern is that I can get exactly the same battery when I have to change the battery in a couple of years.
Title: Re: 12V Battery after long stand still
Post by: Kremmen on May 03, 2024, 05:18:10 PM
From previous posts it seems that the charge level of the 12v battery when you leave it may have a bearing on how long it will last with some charge