fuel injectors and ECM

[Jeff B]

The guy at Ecutesting says that they will replace some components with more resilient types so this may address the issues you mention - hopefully! This is my third Jazz - never had any problems with the first two. Would there be any mileage in my writing to Honda to express my disappointment? As the OP said, could this be considered to be a design fault?

I'm guessing they will fit uprated output transistors and perhaps some ancilliary components, but I don't think there will be significant changes to the circuit. Just a guess, mind. Whilst that would help in future, it won't make it indestructible.

You can usually tell when an ECU has a particular weakness when ECU repairing companies offer a service dealing with a specific, documented fault. I think it's clear that the mark 2 Jazz ECU has a weakness, but proving it would be difficult, and I would think getting the manufacturer to admit it, impossible.

However, there is a train of thought that says, "don't ask, don't get"... though any offers of assistance from the manufacturer usually come in the form of goodwill - normally a contribution to the cost of the work at a franchised dealer. Obviously, that doesn't stop you from pointing out that the issue is known one, and expressing your disappointment - you might get lucky with some goodwill vouchers towards future dealer costs... do they still do stuff like that?

I'll give it a try anyway. According to the Honda website they are currently unable to respond to written correspondence because of the COVID pandemic (staff working remotely etc) but there is an on-line form which can be used, so I'll try that. Do you think this problem is unique to the Mark 2? I ask because hopefully this has been fixed in the Mark 3 series? If that is the case then I would seriously consider putting my Mark 2 in part exchange for a newer Mark 3. The dealer offered me a decent part-ex price yesterday and they have a nice 2016 Mark 3 CVT with only 22,000 on the clock!

[sparky Paul]

Do you think this problem is unique to the Mark 2? I ask because hopefully this has been fixed in the Mark 3 series? If that is the case then I would seriously consider putting my Mark 2 in part exchange for a newer Mark 3.

You don't hear of it, but then mark 3s are only 5 years old max.

You have to bear in mind that although this is known fault with the mark 2, it is certainly not a common issue - I think you can put it down to a bit of bad luck. If it happened to you twice, I wouldn't bother putting the lottery on ever again.

[culzean]

Do you think this problem is unique to the Mark 2? I ask because hopefully this has been fixed in the Mark 3 series? If that is the case then I would seriously consider putting my Mark 2 in part exchange for a newer Mark 3.

You don't hear of it, but then mark 3s are only 5 years old max.

You have to bear in mind that although this is known fault with the mark 2, it is certainly not a common issue - I think you can put it down to a bit of bad luck. If it happened to you twice, I wouldn't bother putting the lottery on ever again.

Like a lot of specialist parts the ECU probably not made by Honda, just badged with car makers name and probably common to other makes, and made to a price ( isn't everything ).

[Jeff B]

Do you think this problem is unique to the Mark 2? I ask because hopefully this has been fixed in the Mark 3 series? If that is the case then I would seriously consider putting my Mark 2 in part exchange for a newer Mark 3.

You don't hear of it, but then mark 3s are only 5 years old max.

You have to bear in mind that although this is known fault with the mark 2, it is certainly not a common issue - I think you can put it down to a bit of bad luck. If it happened to you twice, I wouldn't bother putting the lottery on ever again.

This is copied from the ECUtesting Ltd website:

 Vehicle Details: Make Honda, Model JAZZ, Engine Size:1.2-1.4, Specification i-VTEC,Year 2008 - 2015
Common Faults: Misfire codes such as P0201 – Cylinder 1 injector circuit malfunction, P0202 – Cylinder 2 injector circuit malfunction, P0203 – Cylinder 3 injector circuit malfunction, P0204 – Cylinder 4 injector circuit malfunction are all common to be logged in a faulty engine ECU fitted to the Honda Jazz 1.2-1.4 i-VTEC engine from 2008-2015.[/color]

2008 - 2015 covers the Mark 2 era. Yes, it does indeed look like a bad luck story. The Honda garage fitter says he has only come across this fault once before and my local car mechanic who looks after my other Jazz (07 plate, manual) has never come across it!

Today the wife and I were talking about the cars we have had over our 50 years of car ownership starting with our trusty (and very simple to fix by a DIY-er) Austin A35 right up to the present Jazz automatic. We decided that in hindsight we have been very lucky as we have never had any kind of failure like the present one. The most expensive repair prior to this ECU event was a clutch replacement back in the 1980's on a high mileage second hand Mini! Apart from that it has been just routine stuff like tyres, batteries, wheel bearings and exhausts.

P.S. I don't do the lottery anyway or any kind of gambling come to that - a mug's game IMO.

[sparky Paul]

P.S. I don't do the lottery anyway or any kind of gambling come to that - a mug's game IMO.

Me neither 

I don't know what it will cost for the labour on top of the ECU repair, but there are owners happy to pay several hundred pounds to get a car through an MOT... so in the scheme of things, it's not a complete disaster.

[Jeff B]

The main Honda dealer has offered £5500 for my Mk 2 2014 Jazz CVT in part exchange against a Mk 3 2017 Jazz CVT which is marked up at £10,500. Very tempted!

[sparky Paul]

The main Honda dealer has offered £5500 for my Mk 2 2014 Jazz CVT in part exchange against a Mk 3 2017 Jazz CVT which is marked up at £10,500. Very tempted!

The numbers don't sound far away, not knowing the relevant condition/mileages.

It's down to if you think it's worth £5K to go three years newer... or in other words, £5K for 3 years depeciation. I can't really judge, I rarely spend that on a car outright!

[Jeff B]

The main Honda dealer has offered £5500 for my Mk 2 2014 Jazz CVT in part exchange against a Mk 3 2017 Jazz CVT which is marked up at £10,500. Very tempted!

The numbers don't sound far away, not knowing the relevant condition/mileages.

It's down to if you think it's worth £5K to go three years newer... or in other words, £5K for 3 years depeciation. I can't really judge, I rarely spend that on a car outright!

It isn't just a straightforward matter of "getting a car which is three years newer" though - there is a change in model involved which may not (?) have the same inherent ECU problem. This is the dilemma. The Mk 2 CVT we have is my wife's car (I have a trusty 2007 Mk1 manual Jazz with 110K on the clock and still going very well) and this has shaken her confidence in the car. We were fortunate that when the ECU went doo-lally we were pottering along through a shopping high street at about 20 mph - hence she cannot help wondering what would have happened if we had been bowling along the motorway at 70mph!

Unfortunately it seems no-one is able to reassure us that the Mk3 is any better in this regard. The Mk3 has even more bells and whistles than the Mk2 so being the pessimist that I am, all I can see is that there is possibly yet more things to go wrong! All a bit irrational I know as this is the third Jazz we have had and the previous 2 gave no significant problems at all. We part exchanged our Mk1 CVT to buy the Mk2 CVT and the former had 105K miles on the clock and still running beautifully; it was also one of the few cars that we ever bought new.

Edited to add: I paid £2K for the Mk1 manual Jazz and have had it for 4 years. It has been a really reliable workhorse.

[sparky Paul]

It isn't just a straightforward matter of "getting a car which is three years newer" though - there is a change in model involved which may not (?) have the same inherent ECU problem. This is the dilemma

I understand your point, but there's no way that you will know until mark 3 ECUs of a similar age begin to fail... or not. ECU manufacturers did change over the marks, as do the engines and injectors.

mark 1 - BOSCH
mark 2 - Keihin (UK, China or Japan manufactured)
mark 3 - Keihin (Japan, ones I've seen)

The mark 2 and mark 3 ECUs are externally different, what goes on inside is anyone's guess. I think that beyond that, you need a crystal ball.

In the scheme of things, the mark 2 Jazz is a good car. The mark 3, built in Asia, and not good old blighty, might be a better car - I don't know. Unless you're prepared to buy new cars and swap every 3 years, or used cars with a good warranty, I suspect the only answer is to stick with a manufacturer with a reputation for reliability, and cross your fingers.

[Jeff B]

It isn't just a straightforward matter of "getting a car which is three years newer" though - there is a change in model involved which may not (?) have the same inherent ECU problem. This is the dilemma

I understand your point, but there's no way that you will know until mark 3 ECUs of a similar age begin to fail... or not. ECU manufacturers did change over the marks, as do the engines and injectors.

mark 1 - BOSCH
mark 2 - Keihin (UK, China or Japan manufactured)
mark 3 - Keihin (Japan, ones I've seen)

The mark 2 and mark 3 ECUs are externally different, what goes on inside is anyone's guess. I think that beyond that, you need a crystal ball.

In the scheme of things, the mark 2 Jazz is a good car. The mark 3, built in Asia, and not good old blighty, might be a better car - I don't know. Unless you're prepared to buy new cars and swap every 3 years, or used cars with a good warranty, I suspect the only answer is to stick with a manufacturer with a reputation for reliability, and cross your fingers.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. We will be mulling over this for a while I think. The first priority is to get the refurbished ECU back from ECU Testing Ltd (assuming it can be repaired of course and is not terminally damaged),  have the garage fit it and give the car a test run. There may be a flurry of 2 -3 year old Mk3's being part-exchanged in time for the new plate on 1st September, so there may be a good deal to be had. We'll just have to play it by ear.

[sparky Paul]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. We will be mulling over this for a while I think. The first priority is to get the refurbished ECU back from ECU Testing Ltd (assuming it can be repaired of course and is not terminally damaged),  have the garage fit it and give the car a test run. There may be a flurry of 2 -3 year old Mk3's being part-exchanged in time for the new plate on 1st September, so there may be a good deal to be had. We'll just have to play it by ear.

Might not be a bad idea to run the car for a month or two, see if your other half can reconnect with her confidence in the car. If not, there will soon be plenty of 3 year old ex-PCP stock going through auctions & dealers, as you say.

Good luck with the ECU, hope it goes okay.

[pathfinder]

I had an injector fail back in December.
Bought a used one for £30 and had all four ultrasonically cleaned. Problem solved. Luckily no damage to ECM.
Also had VSA light come on shortly after. Traced to footbrake position switch. Stripped the switch and cleaned the contacts, problem solved. There is a service sheet to show how to remove the brake switch. If my early post is still on the forum the data sheet is listed there.
HTH.

[Jeff B]

Update:

ECU has been repaired and is on its way back to me. Will be reinstalled by Honda garage next Tuesday so fingers crossed.

I have found that there is another fuel additive called Techron which seems to do the same sort of job as Redex but is a lot more expensive. Does anyone have experience with this product?

I have had no reply from Honda as yet in response to my email about the problem I have had.

[Jeff B]

Update: the repaired ECU has been fitted and all ok so far. I have had a preliminary reply from a customer services chap at Honda who says that someone from Honda HQ will be in touch with me within 5 working days. Meanwhile we have been offered £6K for the Mk2 Jazz in part-ex against a newer Mk3 (probably 2017 latest as £11K is our max price). Currently there are none to be had in our region but some expected in soon.

[Jeff B]

Update (2): I was given the part number 3782058RE64 for the 2017 Mk3 ES Jazz CVT ECU and ECU Testing Ltd have no record of receiving one of these for repair which bodes well.

However I subsequently discovered that there are umpteen variations of the ECU for the different models of the MK3 like the ES, EX or the NAVI (this name makes me smile as this is what we called a coal miner where I come from!), so basically impossible to check the reliability of all the variations without a lot of hassle for ECU Testing Ltd, which I would not expect them to go through just for me.

What a setup though - surely it must be possible for Honda to design a single ECU for all the range and only use the relevant inputs for the particular range? Their inventory must be unnecessarily huge.

We part-exchanged our original Mk1 Jazz CVT for the Mk2 CVT because we were concerned the former had done a high mileage and how much longer would it last (it had done 105,000 miles). With hindsight we should not have sold it - I traced it on the HM Gov "Check an MOT" website the other day and it's still going strong (125,000 miles)!