Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: Nicksey on September 26, 2022, 11:43:11 AM
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I decided on the Jazz (Honda hybrid motor) as I reckoned it was a more sensible option than going full electric or a plug-in option. I have always had Renaults previously, and always considered economy and MPG before performance.
After researching, I decided this time to go for a Jazz because I liked the hybrid set up.
Today, in the news it has stated that electric charge costs are now 18p a mile.. which is only a penny behind petrol which is 19p a mile! Looking at the way electric charges are going, it is possible that running a 'green' motor will eventually cost more than running a petrol one. Add on top the initial cost, and battery degradation it would appear a self charging hybrid is the way forward.
So running an electric car is proving to be coming less cost effective than petrol. Obviously, a plug-in is not going to benefit the pocket either. This means the only benefit is probably inner-city pollution.
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A plug in hybrid charges like a normal hybrid plus you can plug it in as well. It is only some public chargers that cost as much as is being reported. You can charge at home for a fraction of that cost.
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Petrol 19p a mile
That will depend on the car. I wonder what our hybrid Jazz costs per mile at ~£1.60 per litre and say 60mpg ?
Calculators at the ready .......
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I did my sums over two years ago before I bought my Crosstar. An EV would be cheaper to run if I never ventured far from home and could be charged using 5p/kWh electricity. Then I saw that public chargers were 30p/kWh so around 9p/mile assuming 3.5 mile/kWh which was in the same price range as petrol for a hybrid. Given that the majority of my miles are for longer trips it would mean I would get little reduction in running costs in return for a much greater cost. Petrol has gone up in price but so has electricity.
EVs make sense for those with access to home charging and most of miles in daily commuting within the distance which can be replenished each night by home charging, otherwise good hybrids are the better option. EVs are unlikely to drop in price substantially in the near future as there are constraints in both the supply of battery materials and the production of batteries https://www.economist.com/business/2022/08/14/could-the-ev-boom-run-out-of-juice-before-it-really-gets-going. And, given the UK's increasing gap between reliable electricity supply and expected demand due to phasing out of old nuclear and increased EV charging plus heating changing to heat pumps, I don't see electricity becoming cheap even when the unreliable wind blows.
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A PHEV is the best of both worlds in my opinion. It runs like a normal hybrid but if you plug it in and charge it up it can give you 35 - 40 miles of pure electric motoring. If you have a drive you can charge it off a normal 13A plug as you are not having to fully charge a big battery as in an EV.
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I am delighted with my Honda Jazz Hybrid. Petrol to Electric and back to Petrol again, it is all seamless you can hardly tell. Honda seems to have cracked it with this power train. I would buy an electric vehicle if it had a range of 400 miles or so but I think this is still many years in the future.
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+1
Perfectly happy and a very nice car to drive. Smooth, silent, toys and 60mpg
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If you're talking about "The Future", then the fly in this particular ointment is that you won't be able to buy a new hybrid after 2030 because it'll have an ICE. There is talk of an extension of a few years for hybrids that can travel more then a certain minimum distance (maybe something like 30 or 50 miles) as an EV, but that hasn't yet been defined or confirmed. Certainly the Jazz wouldn't qualify because (a) you can't select EV drive and (b) the battery's too small. And the only way a PHEV makes sense is to plug it in at every opportunity (which'll annoy EV owners), because if you don't you're lugging a heavy battery around for no reason, which will cost you in fuel economy.
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If you're talking about "The Future", then the fly in this particular ointment is that you won't be able to buy a new hybrid after 2030 because it'll have an ICE. There is talk of an extension of a few years for hybrids that can travel more then a certain minimum distance (maybe something like 30 or 50 miles) as an EV, but that hasn't yet been defined or confirmed. Certainly the Jazz wouldn't qualify because (a) you can't select EV drive and (b) the battery's too small. And the only way a PHEV makes sense is to plug it in at every opportunity (which'll annoy EV owners), because if you don't you're lugging a heavy battery around for no reason, which will cost you in fuel economy.
There will probably be a rush to buy new hybrids in the year before the deadline arrives. By then my driving ambitions may well have diminished and I'll be happy with a 2nd hand EV.
A PHEV makes sense for someone whose mileage is predominantly shorter trips plus the occasional long trip. Something that isn't clear to me is whether or not the battery weight is proportional to charge capacity. I suspect not as there's an up-front weight penalty in battery protection and thermal management. An extra 50kg of battery that gives 30 miles of electric operation might be a reasonable trade-off.
A Jazz PHEV might well be in Honda's plans but I suspect that we would have to forego the magic seats as the battery pack would extend under the seat squab.
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I keep thinking that a set of pedals in each seating position might be a great idea. For pedalling generator, not for back seat drivers!
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I keep thinking that a set of pedals in each seating position might be a great idea. For pedalling generator, not for back seat drivers!
Covering the vehicle with solar panels and only going out in sunny weather might be better.
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Covering the vehicle with solar panels and only going out in sunny weather might be better.
Here y'go:
https://lightyear.one/
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This is the future.
https://aptera.us/
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If you're talking about "The Future", then the fly in this particular ointment is that you won't be able to buy a new hybrid after 2030 because it'll have an ICE. There is talk of an extension of a few years for hybrids that can travel more then a certain minimum distance (maybe something like 30 or 50 miles) as an EV, but that hasn't yet been defined or confirmed. Certainly the Jazz wouldn't qualify because (a) you can't select EV drive and (b) the battery's too small. And the only way a PHEV makes sense is to plug it in at every opportunity (which'll annoy EV owners), because if you don't you're lugging a heavy battery around for no reason, which will cost you in fuel economy.
Knowing how legislation regarding vehicles, and how any governments plans constantly change I wouldn't be putting bets on this actually happening. Seven'ish years is a little way off, but I honestly don't believe they will ban petrol engine vehicles at that point.
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A PHEV is the best of both worlds in my opinion. It runs like a normal hybrid but if you plug it in and charge it up it can give you 35 - 40 miles of pure electric motoring. If you have a drive you can charge it off a normal 13A plug as you are not having to fully charge a big battery as in an EV.
It doesn't run like a self-charging hybrid, it uses the battery until it's out of power (usually after about 30 miles) then it runs on the ICE not very efficiently as it's got the extra weight of the larger batteries, it doesn't do any charging while driving so nothing like the Jazz. So you have to plug it in AND put petrol in to use it properly.
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A PHEV is the best of both worlds in my opinion. It runs like a normal hybrid but if you plug it in and charge it up it can give you 35 - 40 miles of pure electric motoring. If you have a drive you can charge it off a normal 13A plug as you are not having to fully charge a big battery as in an EV.
It doesn't run like a self-charging hybrid, it uses the battery until it's out of power (usually after about 30 miles) then it runs on the ICE not very efficiently as it's got the extra weight of the larger batteries, it doesn't do any charging while driving so nothing like the Jazz. So you have to plug it in AND put petrol in to use it properly.
Wrong! For example, the Toyota PHEVs (in PHEV mode) also fill the battery through regenerative braking (just like a Jazz).
Similar to standard hybrids (HEVs), the PHEVs also have hybrid vehicle mode which blends power from the gasoline engine and hybrid battery.
So you can initially drive fully electric, say about 30 miles and then switch to hybrid mode. Then the PHEV works as a "normal" hybrid, but it weighs quite a bit more.
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[/quote]
Knowing how legislation regarding vehicles, and how any governments plans constantly change I wouldn't be putting bets on this actually happening. Seven'ish years is a little way off, but I honestly don't believe they will ban petrol engine vehicles at that point.
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you may be right (hopefully) but they will not be may full petrol cars to buy at that time, unless they start to remanufacture them again
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A PHEV is the best of both worlds in my opinion. It runs like a normal hybrid but if you plug it in and charge it up it can give you 35 - 40 miles of pure electric motoring. If you have a drive you can charge it off a normal 13A plug as you are not having to fully charge a big battery as in an EV.
It doesn't run like a self-charging hybrid, it uses the battery until it's out of power (usually after about 30 miles) then it runs on the ICE not very efficiently as it's got the extra weight of the larger batteries, it doesn't do any charging while driving so nothing like the Jazz. So you have to plug it in AND put petrol in to use it properly.
Wrong! For example, the Toyota PHEVs (in PHEV mode) also fill the battery through regenerative braking (just like a Jazz).
Similar to standard hybrids (HEVs), the PHEVs also have hybrid vehicle mode which blends power from the gasoline engine and hybrid battery.
So you can initially drive fully electric, say about 30 miles and then switch to hybrid mode. Then the PHEV works as a "normal" hybrid, but it weighs quite a bit more.
I have a friend with a Mercedes SUV thingy, which is a PHEV. His power is very much like the Honda, which uses electric as an aid to starting, moving around at slow speeds and acceleration boost. However, once this charge has gone... then its purely petrol motion until he can get home and recharge. The system does not charge during driving. This is the same for Renault PHEVs too (the Clio hybrid works in the same way as the Jazz though, albeit with a slightly longer range and a manual gearbox)
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I would expect any Honda PHEV to build on the existing Honda HEV technology: Use the battery until the charge gets fairly low and then switch to full hybrid in order to achieve the maximum engine efficiency and capture any deceleration / braking energy.
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Since my driving is very short trips during the week with an 80 mile round trip every other weekend a PHEV would be ideal for me. I have registered my interest with Horizon for the HR-V (by another name) PHEV due early next year.
One thing that will stop me buying it is if they fir a huge 'portrait' screen like Tesla have, with only touch controls for everything. i hate them. All the reviewers praised Honda for sticking with real knobs for the heating control. If they go touch only in future it will be a BIG mistake IMO.
My Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV would charge the battery with the ICE whilst driving, but the consumption suffered greatly. In hybrid mode on a journey it would do 55mpg (whilst NOT charging!) Not bad for a 2 ton 'brick' and the same as the HR-V e:HEV. I charged it using a granny cable about twice a week, taking 5 hours, overnight from flat to full. But it's E mileage was pathetic . Best 23miles in the summer 18 in the winter.
Unfortunately I had not got my head in the right place and found that it affected my enjoyment as I became paranoid about E mileage, instead of just letting it get on with the job. Also the screen was so over complicated it drove me bonkers finding what I wanted. Again I should have just let it do it's own thing.
If Honda don't get off the pot with a PHEV, I will probably go with the new Niro PHEV, which is a fantastic car with a claimed battery range of 40mpg.
I think there will be a HUGE rush for ICE cars in the autumn of '28 to beat the ban. Second hand prices for ICE cars will, in my opinion shoot up at the same time.
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All the reviewers praised Honda for sticking with real knobs for the heating control. If they go touch only in future it will be a BIG mistake IMO.
Honda put a touch panel for the heating controls in the Mk 2 HR-V. I reckoned that using it was a safety hazard as it was necessary to stop looking at the road in order to change a setting. I recall (perhaps incorrectly) that Honda's marketing info for the Mk 4 Jazz mentioned that it had physical heating controls. They never admit getting anything wrong but will highlight when they've addressed the problem.
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Does this make sense?
My E is around 4.5 miles/kwh and my October electricity wll be 34p per kwh (up from 28p now) so that will be around 7.6p per mile.
My Jazz EX is around 56 mpg so far (only few weeks), at £1.60 a litre = £7.28 a gallon, so that is around 13p/mile. (1 litre = 0.22 gallon)
My old Civic was around 34 mpg so almost double that.
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My E is around 4.5 miles/kwh and my October electricity wll be 34p per kwh (up from 28p now) so that will be around 7.6p per mile.
If you can charge at home and the bulk of your miles do not require public charging then an EV is the way to go. An e would suit me perfectly.
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My E is around 4.5 miles/kwh and my October electricity wll be 34p per kwh (up from 28p now) so that will be around 7.6p per mile.
My Jazz EX is around 56 mpg so far (only few weeks), at £1.60 a litre = £7.28 a gallon, so that is around 13p/mile. (1 litre = 0.22 gallon)
Your sums make sense although I'm surprised by the high miles/kWh you are getting from the E. I assume you are keeping away from fast roads and don't use the heating.
Having both an EV and an ICE car is a good solution if one can justify it. Use the former for the shorter trips within its range and the latter for the longer trips. Such an arrangement is easier to adopt if it's a two driver household which already has two vehicles.
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Does this make sense?
My E is around 4.5 miles/kwh and my October electricity wll be 34p per kwh (up from 28p now) so that will be around 7.6p per mile.
My Jazz EX is around 56 mpg so far (only few weeks), at £1.60 a litre = £7.28 a gallon, so that is around 13p/mile. (1 litre = 0.22 gallon)
My old Civic was around 34 mpg so almost double that.
Your numbers add up.
I had an e for a year and made a sudden decision to sell it and ordered a new Jazz. That was partly driven by the expected rise in electricity prices of 50p+, 70p+ and £1 later in 2023, prior to the current Government intervention, the dealer offering more than I paid for it as well as some practicality issues that are better addressed for me by the Jazz.
My 1 year average in the e was 3.1miles/kwh and for the coming winter, I would unlikely better 2.5-2.8m/kwh. No road tax on the e, but road tax on the Jazz, the e needed a £600+ charge point which adds around £3.70 per charge assuming 2 charges a week, depreciated over 3 years.
As things stand today, overall the running costs are similar, but I gain the better practicality of the Jazz, but lose the driving dynamics of the e.
If I had to rely on public chargers, some are now charging up to £1/kwh, that would have made the e so much more expensive to run and not viable.
Now the several month wait for the Jazz to arrive.
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A PHEV is the best of both worlds in my opinion. It runs like a normal hybrid but if you plug it in and charge it up it can give you 35 - 40 miles of pure electric motoring. If you have a drive you can charge it off a normal 13A plug as you are not having to fully charge a big battery as in an EV.
It doesn't run like a self-charging hybrid, it uses the battery until it's out of power (usually after about 30 miles) then it runs on the ICE not very efficiently as it's got the extra weight of the larger batteries, it doesn't do any charging while driving so nothing like the Jazz. So you have to plug it in AND put petrol in to use it properly.
Wrong! For example, the Toyota PHEVs (in PHEV mode) also fill the battery through regenerative braking (just like a Jazz).
Similar to standard hybrids (HEVs), the PHEVs also have hybrid vehicle mode which blends power from the gasoline engine and hybrid battery.
So you can initially drive fully electric, say about 30 miles and then switch to hybrid mode. Then the PHEV works as a "normal" hybrid, but it weighs quite a bit more.
I don't know about the Toyota you've mentioned but we have friends who've got a Mitsubishi PHEV and once the battery's used up it's just a petrol car with extra weight to carry. The petrol engine does not charge the battery like in a self charging hybrid, there may be a small charge through regenerative braking while in electric mode but this doesn't amount to much.
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There was quite a lot of work done on "range extender" (RE) generators, I had a very small involvement in some R&D with an engine company a few years ago. The car would be essentially a PEV designed to run primarily on battery, but as/when the charge level dropped to a certain level the RE generator would fire up and provide both tractive power to the electric motor and also some recharging if necessary.
In a small family car (Golf/Focus) sized vehicle the RE was around 40kW output, plenty enough to make the car driveable in most road conditions.
I assume development in battery/motor technology has made this approach less attractive, and pure EV or hybrid with "light" EV characteristics and a mainstream ICE power unit have become the more common solutions. I don't think we'll see RE cars on the market now, it might make some sense for other types of vehicles.
Personally I still think the RE concept has a lot going for it, a true EV for most circumstances but without excessively large batteries yet the ability to do unlimited mileage using an ICE albeit with restricted performance, but enough to live with.
The RE engines are designed to run at only one or two speed/load points, where fuel efficiency is pretty much optimised, for example 2000rpm half load (say 10kW) for maintaining EV range and 4000rpm full load (say 40kW) for traction power as required. They could be optimised for these conditions.
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As a teenager, I designed exactly such a system but it never went beyond the drawing board. Batteries were so heavy and inefficient but it was a great exercise in future thinking. Who would have thought.............
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Nice conversation here, but getting back to the question "Hybrid..is it the future?"
No... for me it's been the present, every day for years. And the (near) future will, I hope, also be (for a few more years) Hybrid.
And what the further future will bring? Who knows, my crystal ball has fallen into shards...
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I plan on keeping my hybrid for 5 years. I will then reassess whether battery technology and the public charging infrastructure has moved on enough to tempt me to full EV ( I cant see it being any sooner, but who knows ) .
I think during the 2020's and 2030's hybrids and I.C.E cars will still hold a reasonable used car value and might even be sought after. Not everyone can afford a newer EV.
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As a teenager, I designed exactly such a system but it never went beyond the drawing board. Batteries were so heavy and inefficient but it was a great exercise in future thinking. Who would have thought.............
When I was a nipper rolling downhill on a plank of wood with pram wheels was the limit of my ingenuity. I
I didnt even bother fitting a soap box. ;D Or even more low tech, sliding down a pit bing on a tin tray.
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Personally I still think the RE concept has a lot going for it, a true EV for most circumstances but without excessively large batteries yet the ability to do unlimited mileage using an ICE albeit with restricted performance, but enough to live with.
The range extender concept might work well with fuel cells as I believe these are best designed for a constant output and the size increases with this output. Fuel cell vehicles haven't made the news recently and Honda has discontinued the Clarity. I hope, however, that R&D is continuing because hydrogen is one way to store surplus energy from the erratic renewable sources and topping up a hydrogen tank is quicker than topping up a large battery.
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Did not BMW's i3 not have a range extender engine for a few years before they gave up on it and increased the battery size instead?
As for my take on hybrids, they certainly are an interesting option, but they can't be the future as the Governments have already taken the decision that hybrids will be phased out from 2035. The question which I think is still unanswered is what type of hybrid and what emissions will be allowed between 2030 and 2035.
Watching a video explaining the current Honda hybrid set up, its a very interesting engineering design, eliminating a gearbox and designed so that the engine mostly operates at its best efficiency.
Having run a full EV for the past year, its not the future based on the current state of batteries, range etc, but the Governments have decided it is. The biggest issue is the charging infrastructure, time it takes to charge, especially between 80-100% and lack of super chargers. Cost of electricity has now become an issue as well.
Looking at the selfish way some people drive, public charging equitete is never going to happen.
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Mazda are planning a rotary MX30 range extender model.
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My E is around 4.5 miles/kwh and my October electricity wll be 34p per kwh (up from 28p now) so that will be around 7.6p per mile.
My Jazz EX is around 56 mpg so far (only few weeks), at £1.60 a litre = £7.28 a gallon, so that is around 13p/mile. (1 litre = 0.22 gallon)
Your sums make sense although I'm surprised by the high miles/kWh you are getting from the E. I assume you are keeping away from fast roads and don't use the heating.
Yes, the E is a shopping and fun car, and never needs to be charged away from home, I'm retired so no commuting or similar. The Jazz is for longer journeys and economy. I really liked my 1.8 i vtech Civic but got lazy with the "automatic" E and excellent one pedal driving, and that after a lifetime of hating automatic gearboxes, particularly cvts!
I gave up stuff for the EX, the Civic had motorised glass sunroof cover, motorised driver seat side and lumbar etc, full leather all round etc etc and frankly the first time I drove the Jazz I did not like the cream interior. However a few more drives and looking into the clever engine system and economy, and finding criticism of the foot to the floor noise over egged, was won over. It is smooth and quiet, has that big car feel on the road, and is as big on the inside without being as big on the outside.
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"... as big on the inside without being as big on the outside."
Maybe Honda is taking design tips from the TARDIS in Doctor Who.