Author Topic: judder  (Read 2827 times)

dave456

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judder
« on: February 28, 2018, 08:58:45 AM »
Hi members i have a honda jazz cvt 2003 with 49,000 on it i have noticed when i set off normally its ok but if i put my foot down at start the  drive shafts vibrate for 2/3 secs drive normal from start its ok i have looked in the workshop manual it says if drive shafts vibrate it is the inner cv joints worn any one had this experience before any advice would be appreciated. or is it the gearbox that wantss flushing .   

Jocko

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Re: judder
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2018, 09:44:29 AM »
CV joints are not an issue on the Jazz, especially at only 49K.
Looks like you have the usual CVT problem of needing the gearbox oil flushed and refilled. Oil is supposed to be changed every 48K miles or every 4 years. Chances are, unless you know different, your oil has been in since new!
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 09:46:57 AM by Jocko »

dave456

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Re: judder
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2018, 10:05:13 AM »
hi jacko only just bought this car it as clean oil in gearbox, it is ok when driven normal only when driven fast from rest other than that it drives ok.

Jocko

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Re: judder
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2018, 10:10:21 AM »
Transmission oil normally looks clean, no matter how long it has been in. Oil should have been changed in 2007, 2011 and 2015. Take it you don't have its service records.

dave456

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Re: judder
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2018, 10:24:02 AM »
no jacko the dealer said it has been serviced by honda about 4 times
 
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 10:26:49 AM by dave456 »

culzean

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Re: judder
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2018, 11:05:34 AM »
no jacko the dealer said it has been serviced by honda about 4 times

Good old service history eh ! (there are lies, damned lies  and service history) I would hedge my bets and flush and replace the fluid anyway (plenty on information on here about CVT fluid, judder and flushing).  Use the proper Honda CVT fluid because it is formulated for Honda CVT,  each different manufacturer uses a carefully formulated fluid in their CVT, it has to be the correct balance of slipperness and still give some stickiness.

As Jocko says CV joints on modern cars are a lifetime item now unless really badly abused by hard acceleration on hard lock,  they get packed with Molybdenum Disulphide grease at manufacture and need no care after unless gaiter gets damaged and looses grease out or water in.   Molyslip contains much finer flakes of Molybdenum Disulphide and I use it in manual gearboxes and Engine ( but you cannot use it in CVT,  IT WILL WRECK IT ).   - i even use 2% Molyslip in my motorbike even though it has a wet clutch (engine oil and gearbox / clutch share the same oil) - 2% is max recommended by Molyslip and LiquiMoly - use too much and it can cause clutch to slip. 
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 11:36:23 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

guest5079

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Re: judder
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2018, 11:22:35 AM »
Car has full service history!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Main Honda dealer. Yes, I don't think so. In my case and I will use every opportunity to labour the point. When I made a fuss about brake fluid, the book says to change it every three years, I got them to admit there was NO record of it being done. Their excuse, we only do what the customer wants. Answer, maybe BUT when you sold the car you had duty to ensure everything that was to be done should have been done that is the only way you can claim FULL SERVICE history.
Secondly and I cannot prove it, we had a Rover V6 45 with a Jatco auto box. I paid the local Rover agent to change the auto fluid. This involved a computer and precise measurements of fluid.
 The box started playing up, so the Rover went and we bough the Honda.
On Wheeler Dealers they bought a Porsche for some ridiculous amount because the Jatco box was doing exactly what the Rover box was doing. The tall one, changed the fluid and filter and hey presto a very cheap Porsche that made a lot of money. The question is WAS the fluid changed? As in the CVT was the fluid changed? Sorry to be a cynic but the day of the bomb site car dealers was supposed to have gone BUT it does seem that some of their practices are still in being.

dave456

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Re: judder
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2018, 12:07:38 PM »
thank you for all your reply's so it looks lie it wants a gearbox flush .1 or a double flush thank you all dave.

VicW

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Re: judder
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2018, 01:33:34 PM »
Oil is supposed to be changed every 48K miles or every 4 years. Chances are, unless you know different, your oil has been in since new!

Jocko, I think you will find that the change period for CVT-F fluid is now every 25K or two years whichever is the sooner.

Vic.

culzean

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Re: judder
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2018, 01:36:00 PM »
thank you for all your reply's so it looks lie it wants a gearbox flush .1 or a double flush thank you all dave.

I don't have CVT (my wife used to have one) but there is plenty advice on here (use search function ) - there seems to be a procedure to go thorough during the flush to give the CVT a good workout and remove some of what appears to be 'glazing' of surfaces inside the CVT that may cause judder,  this gets done before final fluid is refilled. There are also some ceramic additives recommended by some people here to remove glazing and impart a nice smooth finish (but TG reckons its only a rough fix before selling the car LOL) - advice seems to be leave the first new fill (flush) of CVT fluid in for a week or so before draining and filling with fresh fluid.

https://www.coxmotorparts.co.uk/honda-shop/genuine-honda-cvt-fluid-4ltr/

CVT fluid change was reduced by Honda after people had problems.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 01:48:41 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: judder
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2018, 03:07:54 PM »
Oil is supposed to be changed every 48K miles or every 4 years. Chances are, unless you know different, your oil has been in since new!
Jocko, I think you will find that the change period for CVT-F fluid is now every 25K or two years whichever is the sooner.
Thanks, Vic. I do not have a CVT and was just going by the Haynes manual.

sparky Paul

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Re: judder
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2018, 05:19:31 PM »
Secondly and I cannot prove it, we had a Rover V6 45 with a Jatco auto box. I paid the local Rover agent to change the auto fluid. This involved a computer and precise measurements of fluid.
 The box started playing up, so the Rover went and we bough the Honda.

Those Jatco boxes, beloved of VW and their clones,  are a disaster and are prone to failure at 60-80K miles. They were designed to last the life of the car without a fluid change, and because of that, you can't actually change all of the fluid properly - only about two thirds at a time. All you can do is repeat the fluid change several times to dilute the old fluid as much as possible. When you do bite the bullet and do a fluid change, the stuff that comes out is horrible.

guest5079

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Re: judder
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2018, 10:38:39 AM »
I am sorry to disagree. The Rover service sheet stipulates a fluid change at a certain time. I cannot find the capacity of the Jatco box but it states a refill of 4 litres. Given that this box was fitted to Jaguar, Porsche I believe BMW Ford and a few others, I am surprised it was a failure. Ironically, I merely had the fluid changed as it said to do in the service sheet and it was after that that problems started.  Yes of course muck could have been dislodged but one has to trust people to do what they are paid to do and this unfortunately is not always the case. Great emphasis was made about using the Rover computer and the correct temperatures. I suppose standing around waiting for the transmission to warm up would tempt short cuts but if they had started the job on my arrival as I was told to get there by a certain time because the transmission had to be up to temperature, it might have been a different story BUT a nearly 2 hr wait?
We had the car for about 5 yrs and as an auto it was a very smooth and biddable unit.
Unfortunately ALL transmissions can be problematical if mistreated and even Honda has had to change its servicing recommendations for their CVT

sparky Paul

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Re: judder
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2018, 04:34:32 PM »
I am sorry to disagree. The Rover service sheet stipulates a fluid change at a certain time. I cannot find the capacity of the Jatco box but it states a refill of 4 litres. Given that this box was fitted to Jaguar, Porsche I believe BMW Ford and a few others, I am surprised it was a failure.

I think we are talking about the Jatco JF506E gearbox here, it was fitted to Rovers, VW/Audi, Freelanders and some Ford/Mazda. You only find it on the Jaguar X-Type, as that's basically a Mondeo. I believe Porsche and BMW have used Jatco gearboxes, but I don't think either have never used this particular automatic 'box.

The fluid refill  is 4 litres, but the capacity of the gearbox is 8 litres. You simply cannot change all of the oil, or even the filter, and in VW applications no scheduled fluid change is specified. The filter is internal, and it is impossible to change it without completely dismantling the gearbox.

These gearboxes are lovely when they are working, but unfortunately they start to die after the 60K mile mark. These problems are well known in VW, Audi and Ford Galaxy (VW Sharan) circles. They can be rebuilt, but it's expensive - if anyone is considering a used car with one of these gearboxes, all I can say is avoid... or at the very least, make sure you have a good warranty.

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