Author Topic: Incredibly flexible little engine.  (Read 893 times)

Jocko

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Incredibly flexible little engine.
« on: December 20, 2017, 07:05:06 AM »
I am amazed at how flexible and torquey the 1.2 i-DSi engine is. I pootle around town and barely ever come down below 3rd gear - in fact I find I use 4th and 5th for the most of my town miles. The little engine is happy to pull from 1200 rpm, provided you don't need to accelerate quickly. I am careful not to labour it, but unless it is a junction (Kirkcaldy almost all roundabouts on the main routes) or a turning onto a hill, where 2nd is required, 3rd is about as low as I go. For all the world, it performs like a small diesel!

culzean

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Re: Incredibly flexible little engine.
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2017, 09:41:02 AM »
I am amazed at how flexible and torquey the 1.2 i-DSi engine is. I pootle around town and barely ever come down below 3rd gear - in fact I find I use 4th and 5th for the most of my town miles. The little engine is happy to pull from 1200 rpm, provided you don't need to accelerate quickly. I am careful not to labour it, but unless it is a junction (Kirkcaldy almost all roundabouts on the main routes) or a turning onto a hill, where 2nd is required, 3rd is about as low as I go. For all the world, it performs like a small diesel!

I always found the GD i-DSi engine to be more suited to Jazz (urban car) than the GE VTec which I find gutless low down. To be sure the VTec rewards you if you are willing to rev it,  but it really needs 6 gears with bottom 3 ratios closer to make up for lack of low down oomph.  The engines may look like similar torque low down on paper,  but in practice it does not seen to be the case - I have to agree with Jocko that GD behaves better at lower revs.  I blame the Atkinson cycle on the Vtec,  which does not seem to improve MPG as much as it should but alters engine characteristics at lower revs to lower the power.

I often used to describe the GD engine to people as 'diesel like' and my brothers were impressed when they drove it.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 09:42:42 AM by culzean »
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peteo48

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Re: Incredibly flexible little engine.
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2017, 01:57:35 PM »
The first Jazz I drove was GDi-DSi car on a 57 plate. I took it on the M60 and found it lacking a bit on the motorway. I didn't buy a Jazz at that stage because of this. When I eventually did take another drive in a Jazz it was a 1.4 I vtec and I found it a decentish drive on the motorway. I bought the car.

But I'm wondering if I missed something first time out because a friend who traded in his 55 plate Jazz last year for a 2013 1.4 I vtec  told me he found his new car a bit gutless at low revs - there's obviously something in this.

Round town I find my current car perfectly OK at lowish revs but when you do decide to get a bit of a shift on you really do need to change down and give it the beans. I find this especially on joining motorways.

Incidentally - and at risk of opening a very old can of worms - I'm using high octane fuel at the moment - Sainsburys 97 or Tesco 99 - I swear the car feels smoother and more responsive. I'm not even sure it's placebo because I am often not even thinking of what's in the tank!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 01:59:53 PM by peteo48 »

culzean

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Re: Incredibly flexible little engine.
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2017, 02:06:39 PM »
The first Jazz I drove was GDi-DSi car on a 57 plate. I took it on the M60 and found it lacking a bit on the motorway. I didn't buy a Jazz at that stage because of this. When I eventually did take another drive in a Jazz it was a 1.4 I vtec and I found it a decentish drive on the motorway. I bought the car.

But I'm wondering if I missed something first time out because a friend who traded in his 55 plate Jazz last year for a 2013 1.4 I vtec last year told me he found his new car a bit gutless at low revs - there's obviously something in this.

Round town I find my current car perfectly OK at lowish revs but when you do decide to get a bit of a shift on you really do need to change down and give it the beans. I find this especially on joining motorways.

Incidentally - and a risk of opening a very old can of worms - I'm using high octane fuel at the moment - Sainsburys 97 or Tesco 99 - I swear the car feels smoother and more responsive. I'm not even sure it's placebo because I am often not even thinking of what's in the tank!

You are right about GD engine,  it started to run out of breathe at about 4500 revs,  but it only really affected you when overtaking sometimes,  at around 3300 rpm at 70 the 4500 area did not affect motorway driving,  and the Vtec does about same rpm at 70 anyway.  In my opinion the 8 valve i-DSi was a much underrated engine.

Even my wife has remarked about how GD engine was better for most things including 'lazy gear changes' as she calls them,  the GE and later models ride and handle better - but I think I-DSi was better suited to an urban car,  and it was not really that bad on the motorway.

I have noticed engine is smoother and perkier with higher octane.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 02:17:32 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Incredibly flexible little engine.
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2017, 07:09:43 PM »
You are right about GD engine,  it started to run out of breathe at about 4500 revs
That is what I found. In fact, when I try to rev the a**e off it, 4318 rpm is the highest I have ever recorded. Above that there doesn't seem like much point.

MartinJG

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Re: Incredibly flexible little engine.
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2017, 01:18:09 AM »
I have just done a round trip of 300 miles on mainly motorway. Up until now, I have really only used it on routine local errands so it was interesting to see how it performed. I had it up to a steady 4000 RPM for large parts of the journey where conditions permitted. Wouldn't want to go any faster. Busy is the word I would use. Fuel consumption also dropped to around 45 by my calculations after a tank refill. The onboard gauge insists it is doing 48.4 but I think it is telling fibs. However, I was surprised how surefooted it felt, steering rock solid and firm and brakes good though I generally find they snatch a little too much for my taste. I am used to and prefer more progressive braking characteristics. The seats are also surpisingly comfortable and with good support. No backache or creaks at the end of the trip. Head rest is also well positioned for support. Leg room not great but driving position spot on. It's the little details that Honda seem to have addressed with a degree of precision. However, it is not really a driver's car in my view. It just lacks that degree of involvement on the road. Point and squirt is what it does really well but I felt it needed that extra gear for cruising. However, I accept that it is really designed as a town car so egg beating is what you get, albeit fairly refined.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 01:21:17 AM by MartinJG »

Jocko

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Re: Incredibly flexible little engine.
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2017, 06:46:27 AM »
brakes good though I generally find they snatch a little too much for my taste.
This is something I find, and have struggled with since getting the car. Even after 18 months, every now and again they catch me out.

peteo48

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Re: Incredibly flexible little engine.
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2017, 10:36:59 AM »
Good point that Martin makes about that extra gear. This has been addressed in the Mk3 with a 6th gear. I think I'm right in thinking, having googled it a bit ago, that the 6th gear is an extra ratio. 5th is the same ratio as in the old car so it is a genuine overdrive thing. Stand to be corrected if anybody knows any different.

MartinJG

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Re: Incredibly flexible little engine.
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2017, 12:07:21 PM »
I guess the technical issue is whether the engine setup can produce enough torque to cope with gradients and acceleration etc where sufficent power is required. I am used to a final drive ratio of @ 29:1 which is ideal for cruising but that is a diesel and therefore suited to mid range RPM. The little Jazz is obviously an over square revver and works well that way but it is a tad tiring. That said, there seem to be plenty of minis living in the fast lane. It does raise the question whether they should be there though. Most of them are probably an accident waiting to happen judging from the way they drive bumper to bumper. Just because they can do a 100MPH doesn't necessarily mean they should. Trouble is most of them are probably in shopping trolley mode with app to hand. Throw in the inside lane overtaking clowns and we have a recipe for something sticky. I always reckon it is best to knock 20 MPH off the advertised 'escape velocity' to get to a sensible speed for common sense reasons.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 12:25:27 PM by MartinJG »

culzean

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Re: Incredibly flexible little engine.
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2017, 12:30:12 PM »
That said, there seem to be plenty of minis living in the fast lane. It does raise the question whether they should be there though. Most of them are probably an accident waiting to happen judging from the way they drive bumper to bumper. Just because they can do a 100MPH doesn't necessarily mean they should. I always reckon it is best to knock 20 MPH off the advertised top speed to get to a sensible velocity for common sense reasons.

People go on about raising speed limit on motorway from 70 to 80 'because cars are better now', (yeah but drivers are not).  People feel invulnerable in their little tin box,  and do 80 to 90 anyway, if limit was raised they would just do 90 to 100.  There are some pretty nasty accidents on German autobahns due to difference in speeds.  With advent of electric cars when range suffers badly from doing 70 or over I think motorway speed limit will actually be reduced to cut down on both 'range disappointment' and 'range anxiety'.

When we lived in  South Africa in the 1970's they used to leave mangled vehicles at the side of the road at crash sites (sometimes on a raised plinth) - not because they were too lazy to clear them away but to serve as a reminder how quickly and badly things can go wrong..  Don't know if they still do it,  but I thought it was a great idea.

Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

MartinJG

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Re: Incredibly flexible little engine.
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2017, 12:57:04 PM »

When we lived in  South Africa in the 1970's they used to leave mangled vehicles at the side of the road at crash sites (sometimes on a raised plinth) - not because they were too lazy to clear them away but to serve as a reminder how quickly and badly things can go wrong..  Don't know if they still do it,  but I thought it was a great idea.

Excellent idea. Trouble is, a dose of reality is just a bit too much for the PC brigade and their pandering mentality.

John A

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Re: Incredibly flexible little engine.
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2017, 01:38:59 PM »

When we lived in  South Africa in the 1970's they used to leave mangled vehicles at the side of the road at crash sites (sometimes on a raised plinth) - not because they were too lazy to clear them away but to serve as a reminder how quickly and badly things can go wrong..  Don't know if they still do it,  but I thought it was a great idea.

Excellent idea. Trouble is, a dose of reality is just a bit too much for the PC brigade and their pandering mentality.

Don't need to, just look for the bouquets of flowers  :'(

peteo48

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Re: Incredibly flexible little engine.
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2017, 02:55:48 PM »
I think, given a long enough stretch of road and decent conditions you can wind my Jazz up to 113 mph. I can't imagine what it would be like at those speeds though. I have an inbuilt preference for driving well within the capabilities of whatever car I'm driving.

I agree with Culzean that raising the speed limit would just mean people adding another 10 mph to already excessive speeds.

Round our way some of them would do it in thick fog!

culzean

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Re: Incredibly flexible little engine.
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2017, 07:33:31 PM »

Don't need to, just look for the bouquets of flowers  :'(

Too easy to miss the flowers.

In Taiwan they build a little shrine at roadside and put casualties shoes in it.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Incredibly flexible little engine.
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2017, 08:16:13 PM »
In Taiwan they build a little shrine at roadside and put casualties shoes in it.
They have started building shrines here about too.

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