The iShift again.

[lexi]

  Yes Eddie, I am leaning towards what you say.  I think basically there are two actuators. Clutch and gearchange.  Switches on the 2 brakes  will trigger de-clutching.  Once lever is manually moved into drive the actuators can do the 6 forward gears. Neutral and reverse can only be obtained by operator, manually.  The Volkswagen robot boxes have more stages and complication. Our iShift and the Citroen Sensodrive are similar ilk.
   
    Your premise on the true auto box is correct Culzean, but with a few additions. Same as above with only being able to select neutral, drive and reverse manually.  However the last 2 generations of autobox from Aisin (Toyota) have the following feature. When in drive and at a stop with footbrake applied, the ECU will de -clutch the transmission after 30 seconds. This is to avoid the issues you mention and is a safety device.
  I am thinking the iShift does similar with it's clutch actuator. It still leaves me thinking that the true clutch fork has the pressure on release bearing, so I am going into neutral , till I find out otherwise.
     The true auto box (epicyclic) still has clutches. They are inside the torque converter. When converter fails the clutches have worn and overheated.  They slice the flat cylinder like opening a roll. Replace the clutch packs, then weld it back together on a precise machine for the purpose. This is why it is serious money.
   A buddy of mine who has stripped these proper auto boxes down, still maintains they are easier to work on than manual boxes.  Also, proper auto boxes are much stronger for big horsepower. The "sealed for life" concept has killed lots though. 40k oil changes on the real autos for me. No fails yet.

[Eddie Honda]

The true auto box (epicyclic) still has clutches. They are inside the torque converter.

Not the case (usually). For instance the forward and reverse clutches of the Borg-Warner 35 are inside the main box and are wet multiplate type as you described. The torque converter stator has a one-way clutch which is more of a roller type type arrangement that allows solid movement in one direction and slippage in the other.

In ye very olden days these autos could be tow started (as could the early Mini/1100 4 speed AE boxes) as they either had a secondary oil pump on the output or the main pump on the output shaft so pressure could still be built up in the hydraulics without the engine turning.

[lexi]

That is what I meant by clutches.........wet multi-plate clutch packs.

[Eddie Honda]

Yes, but you said they were inside the torque converter and not inside the gearbox??

[applicationcen]

I have been interested to resolve the -assumption- for want of a better word, that the handbrake disengages the clutch so I called Hendy Honda technical service department in Exeter 01392 423 800- this is their response:-

The hand brake does NOT disengage the clutch (aka the Parking brake as referred to in the manual).

Sitting at zero MPH or at low revs makes no difference.

I actually went and tested that out - it has a 'creep' function at low revs and I think this allows one to think the clutch is disengaged, where as it is at least partially engaged or being made to slip by the ECU.

On his advice a momentary hand brake start on a hill is acceptable, but do not sit at idle in gear with the hand brake on UNLESS you have your foot firmly on the foot brake as well.

 

[lexi]

  This shows the clutches inside TC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk3n_ss0x5s

[lexi]

  Good stuff APP.  Handbrake is a misnomer then.  I think from the info here it is plain and simple to make a choice for the best.
     My routine will be set now .

[lexi]

   

Yes, but you said they were inside the torque converter and not inside the gearbox??

  My bad on poor wording Eddie.  The clutches that lock transmission through the gears are in there. What I was getting at really, is that the TC is the key component of the box as it does so much and also that there are clutches in there. Without lock up clutch you have low gears and high revs, so terrible economy.
   I fitted a switch on my old Nissan Patrol that enabled me to lock up 2nd third and fourth for more flexible driving. Modern autos do all this by better design.

[Eddie Honda]

That video link has enlightened me to the "modern" practice of adding a lock-up clutch to the TC (in additon to the two or so inside the box).

Interesting that the ishift has a creep clutch burner function.

[lexi]

   I wont be letting mine creep much Eddie . It will be into gear and away. Sounds like a dragging clutch function that creep thing.

    An interesting thing that crops up is that the actuators on Honda system (probably others too) are made by Bosch. Seemingly Honda dealers were instructed to change actuators when Civics were stuck in reverse. It seems that the actuators needed separating and then system reprogramming.  Honda dealers were simply replacing actuators at 1300 quid I think.
   The Citroen system has been doing similar things, so I think they would be replacing as well.
     It does seem that out of most Techs in a dealership, you are lucky to get one who knows the score. I suppose they have no need to know, or desire to know.
   I think The Jazz in UK has had upgrades on software with iShift as well as other things improved. Not many failures with it.

[applicationcen]

I called a Honda employee that I know when I first got interested in each of the Hondas I have bought.
On the iShift he said that they had ironed all the initial problems out and it is very reliable.
So it is a bit of bargain against the rest of the range (if you can put up with / learn to deal the jerking gear changes) as the press warns people off them which is good for price and availability second hand.

[guest5079]

I was and still am a little in awe? of the I shift.  I stated in a previous post, I had changed the air filter, since when I have found the I shift a little more amenable, especially changing between 1st and 2nd.
Having driven conventional automatics for over 10 yrs, I am trying to get into the habit of foot off footbrake and handbrake on when stopped at lights etc, leaving it in gear.  As far as I can make out, reading the info in the manual etc, providing the engine is not running above tickover, the clutch is disengaged. I like most, wonder about the 'clutch release bearing but conventional stick shift cars seem to cope with people sitting with their foot on the clutch, in gear at lights etc.
I am mindful, that when sitting still for any length of time,  an auto box should be put into N or P as the torque converter will overheat. The I shift doesn't have a torque converter, so presumably the clever little men at Honda have set the system up, so that when stopped, with the engine on tickover, the clutch is disengaged. SO back to the clutch release bearing, I suppose you pays yer money and takes your chance.

[lexi]

   As I mentioned , a chap has a blog on Jazz .  His method with stop and handbrake on, is same as yours. 110k miles from new......no issues.  There are never any issues with a release bearing........till gearbox has to come out of course to replace it. 
       The good news for us is that I can find no mention of a problem with that bearing from any owner.

[applicationcen]

Very interesting reading what you said.

I have been outside my house for the last 15 minutes testing that out with the hand break in a1 and R.

There -must- be a sensor relating to handbrake position (on) at idle. (Which is at odds with what I was told by Hendy Honda).

I orientated the car first pointing up a very slight incline allowing it to roll back very slowly with the hand brake lifted to the first notch at tick over in a1. As soon as you drop the hand brake it creeps forward - indicating that the clutch was disengaged until I dropped the hand brake.

Same happens in reverse.

As soon as you increase revs clutch engages with handbrake on.

Ill get one of the service people at Hendy to tell me what they think happens when I take the car for a service and enlighten them with a demo!

I was and still am a little in awe? of the I shift.  I stated in a previous post, I had changed the air filter, since when I have found the I shift a little more amenable, especially changing between 1st and 2nd.
Having driven conventional automatics for over 10 yrs, I am trying to get into the habit of foot off footbrake and handbrake on when stopped at lights etc, leaving it in gear.  As far as I can make out, reading the info in the manual etc, providing the engine is not running above tickover, the clutch is disengaged. I like most, wonder about the 'clutch release bearing but conventional stick shift cars seem to cope with people sitting with their foot on the clutch, in gear at lights etc.
I am mindful, that when sitting still for any length of time,  an auto box should be put into N or P as the torque converter will overheat. The I shift doesn't have a torque converter, so presumably the clever little men at Honda have set the system up, so that when stopped, with the engine on tickover, the clutch is disengaged. SO back to the clutch release bearing, I suppose you pays yer money and takes your chance.

[VicW]

As soon as you drop the hand brake it creeps forward - indicating that the clutch was disengaged until I dropped the hand brake.
Same happens in reverse.
As soon as you increase revs clutch engages with handbrake on.

I think that what this indicates is that at engine idle the handbrake is capable of holding the car stationary even though the clutch is lightly engaged.
As you increase revs the clutch bites more and overcomes the handbrake.
The only way to totally disengage the clutch is to put the car in neutral which exactly the same as the way the CVT operates.

Vic.