Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz, HR-V & Hybrid Forums => Honda Jazz Mk1 2002-2008 => Topic started by: Jocko on October 21, 2017, 01:23:10 PM

Title: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on October 21, 2017, 01:23:10 PM
I finally think my gearbox is starting to break up. For the first time I noticed a distinct clicking in second gear. Only under load and particularly bad when the transmission is cold. Looks like I am heading for another distressed purchase. Could well be another Jazz.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: TG on October 21, 2017, 02:16:11 PM
99+v for a gearbox removed and ready for the son in law to fit, choice of 3 manual although I'd avoid the white one.
KY11 1HZ
https://www.u-pull-it.co.uk/search/catalogue/Breaker-Parts/yard/Edinburgh/cartype/Vehicles-Under-7.5-Tonnes/model/Jazz
--
TG
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Stevec1962 on October 21, 2017, 04:09:28 PM
I finally think my gearbox is starting to break up. For the first time I noticed a distinct clicking in second gear. Only under load and particularly bad when the transmission is cold. Looks like I am heading for another distressed purchase. Could well be another Jazz.
290 recorded fitted

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Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Stevec1962 on October 21, 2017, 04:09:50 PM
I finally think my gearbox is starting to break up. For the first time I noticed a distinct clicking in second gear. Only under load and particularly bad when the transmission is cold. Looks like I am heading for another distressed purchase. Could well be another Jazz.
290 recorded fitted

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
Reconditioned

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Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on October 21, 2017, 04:51:19 PM
I'll have to discuss things with my mechanic. If I am going to the bother of removing the gearbox I'd like to just strip it and rebuild it ourselves. I've rebuilt a couple of gearboxes in the past. It is just the time that I cannot really afford. Being without a car is an issue.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Stevec1962 on October 21, 2017, 04:53:32 PM
I'll have to discuss things with my mechanic. If I am going to the bother of removing the gearbox I'd like to just strip it and rebuild it ourselves. I've rebuilt a couple of gearboxes in the past. It is just the time that I cannot really afford. Being without a car is an issue.
I dropped mine off in morning got back by dinner was going to do it self but this was less hassle for the money I bought clutch they fitted it for free 

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Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: sparky Paul on October 21, 2017, 09:48:26 PM
It doesn't look a difficult gearbox to split, looking at the guides on the 'net.

Bearings is straightforward enough, but other strange noises and the costs can creep up.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on October 25, 2017, 01:43:44 PM
Gearbox is well shot. Howling in 3rd as well now. I am going to have a look at a CVT before the weekend. It says it is Blue but it looks a horrible Silver to me. It is a Sport and I don't like the skirts and such like, but it is the nearest CVT for sale near me, so I will give it a try and see what the CVT is like to drive. I will then decide if I should go down that road. Of course I might come home with it! It won't be the first time!!

(https://i.imgur.com/1XLpeym.jpg)
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: TG on October 25, 2017, 01:56:02 PM
Interior trim & upholstery is nicer with a few chrome accents here and there.  Ice Blue cars shed paint from their wing mirror turrets.
--
TG
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: olduser1 on October 25, 2017, 06:18:56 PM
The MOT history look OK , just the condition of front brake pipes.
Govt website https://www.check-mot.service.gov.uk/
Good luck with the car.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on October 25, 2017, 06:26:45 PM
I'm always suspicious of an MOT by the garage that is selling the car. No surprise there are no advisories!
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Hondachap on October 26, 2017, 08:53:28 AM
I'll have to discuss things with my mechanic. If I am going to the bother of removing the gearbox I'd like to just strip it and rebuild it ourselves. I've rebuilt a couple of gearboxes in the past. It is just the time that I cannot really afford. Being without a car is an issue.
I dropped mine off in morning got back by dinner was going to do it self but this was less hassle for the money I bought clutch they fitted it for free 

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which area are you in
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Stevec1962 on October 26, 2017, 08:55:29 AM
I'll have to discuss things with my mechanic. If I am going to the bother of removing the gearbox I'd like to just strip it and rebuild it ourselves. I've rebuilt a couple of gearboxes in the past. It is just the time that I cannot really afford. Being without a car is an issue.
I dropped mine off in morning got back by dinner was going to do it self but this was less hassle for the money I bought clutch they fitted it for free 

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which area are you in
I took it to Wakefield was hour drive but worth it

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Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on October 26, 2017, 09:30:41 AM
which area are you in
Kirkcaldy.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: sparky Paul on October 26, 2017, 09:44:29 AM
Gearbox is well shot. Howling in 3rd as well now. I am going to have a look at a CVT before the weekend. It says it is Blue but it looks a horrible Silver to me. It is a Sport and I don't like the skirts and such like, but it is the nearest CVT for sale near me, so I will give it a try and see what the CVT is like to drive. I will then decide if I should go down that road. Of course I might come home with it! It won't be the first time!!

(https://i.imgur.com/1XLpeym.jpg)

My other half would like that, with all the extra plastic bits. She took a fancy to a black Fiat Panda with all the sporty appendages before we bought this Jazz, looked a bit odd to me.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Hondachap on October 26, 2017, 08:30:56 PM
I'll have to discuss things with my mechanic. If I am going to the bother of removing the gearbox I'd like to just strip it and rebuild it ourselves. I've rebuilt a couple of gearboxes in the past. It is just the time that I cannot really afford. Being without a car is an issue.
I dropped mine off in morning got back by dinner was going to do it self but this was less hassle for the money I bought clutch they fitted it for free 
thanks but too far for me to travel

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which area are you in
I took it to Wakefield was hour drive but worth it

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Hondachap on October 26, 2017, 08:35:06 PM
Question for people in the know
would a 2002 1.4 Gearbox be compatible for a 1.2 2007 Jazz
thanks in advance
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on October 27, 2017, 10:15:34 PM
Decided to give the CVT a miss. Didn't even go and try it. I want to stick with the 1.2 litre engine, and it is not available with the CVT (as I have only just discovered).
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: jazzway on October 27, 2017, 11:57:28 PM
Decided to give the CVT a miss. Didn't even go and try it. I want to stick with the 1.2 litre engine, and it is not available with the CVT (as I have only just discovered).
Didn't know that either. With a 1.4 litre you don't get the MPG numbers you now get with your 1.2, i think. ;)

I sometimes read here there are plenty Jazzes in the UK to choose from, i am sure you will find a nice one. :)
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: TG on October 28, 2017, 12:33:15 PM
would a 2002 1.4 Gearbox be compatible for a 1.2 2007 Jazz
Yes, there are serial numbers:  SWLM-xxxxxxxx is for the GD manual gearbox
--
TG
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Hondachap on October 28, 2017, 05:33:08 PM
Thanks for info T G
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: u587162 on October 28, 2017, 11:42:17 PM
Jocko,

I have an exact same car as you even the same colour - blue pearl.  I bought mine 2nd hand from a garage last Dec and after getting the EGR valve removed and cleaned out by the AA (had lots of carbon in it and car kept stalling at lights or junction), it seems to have done the trick except now I get the same click you mentioned between 20-25 mph and at about 2000 rpm.  It is as if the car jerks forward.

Other problem I have is that the car judders badly ever since I bought it when I setoff in first gear, otherwise it is fine.

I dont know whether I should just sell it, trade it in or repair it.

Any ideas of what is wrong with it and how much it might cost?  I live in NW London.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: culzean on October 29, 2017, 07:54:33 AM
Other problem I have is that the car judders badly ever since I bought it when I setoff in first gear, otherwise it is fine.

Is this clutch judder ?  normally happens in first gear, this can be pretty much cured normally by leaving handbrake on and deliberately slipping clutch while car a standstill to give the clutch plate a good warming up and remove any glazing from plate.  If that does not improve things it may be that clutch plate springs are weakened or broken, or maybe dodgy engine or gearbox mount rubber.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on October 29, 2017, 08:08:11 AM
I don't feel juddering. The best way to describe what my gearbox is like is to say that 1st, 2nd, and now 3rd, all sound like reverse. The clicking I got seems to go away if I let go of the gear lever between changes (this suggests a selector/ synchomesh issue). From what I have read, the gearbox will run forever like that, just noisy. I have seen the full Honda bearing kit for under 300, but I think I will just play the radio louder!
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: TG on October 30, 2017, 12:38:13 PM
As mentioned elsewhere, judder in CVT gearboxes just means that the CVT-F fluid is overdue replacement.  A flush and refill (i.e. drain / fill / drain / fill with new fluid) is recommended but you can leave it a week or so between each fill, a bit like soaking a dish overnight, although a garage will do this in one operation.  If the judder is cured shortly after the first fill you could delay the refill.  It's likely that second hand cars have skipped this bit of regular servicing.

4 litres (3.6 needed) for each refill of Honda CVT-F is not expensive, but the access is a bit awkward.  You should not use any other fluid such as regular automatic transmission fluid.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: u587162 on October 30, 2017, 02:50:29 PM
Is it normal to replace the oil in any car that has an automatic gear box or is this something specific to this model car and the CVT?

For my own understanding, how does replacing this oil actually affect the gearbox mechanism to create this juddering noise?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: culzean on October 30, 2017, 03:21:44 PM
Is it normal to replace the oil in any car that has an automatic gear box or is this something specific to this model car and the CVT?

For my own understanding, how does replacing this oil actually affect the gearbox mechanism to create this juddering noise?

Thanks.

Every auto gearbox has its own formulation of fluid to suit the gearbox,  they are a fine blend of friction (lubrication) and lack of friction to suit the materials used in the auto box - it is one of the cases where to use anything other than OEM fluid is a big mistake.  There are additives that can be added to fluid on a short term basis to 'restore' some areas of the box that may have become glazed or ridged,  TG knows all about these ..............  just search 'CVT' on this forum and a load of information will come up on this subject.

Honda recently reduced the CVT fluid change period down to every 24 months I think.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on October 30, 2017, 03:22:09 PM
The issue is Honda CVT related. The oil provides the "clutch" for the automatic transmission (just as the fluid does in a torque converter in a Borg Warner style AT). As it gets dirty it causes the "clutch" to grab.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: TG on October 30, 2017, 03:45:29 PM
There are additives that can be added to fluid on a short term basis to 'restore' some areas of the box that may have become glazed or ridged,  TG knows all about these .............. 
That's the sub 20 'just about to sell the car' fix, longevity is suspect.
--
TG
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on November 04, 2017, 05:00:10 PM
Gearbox is graunching in every gear by 5th now. I know they say it will go on like that for ever, but I doubt mine has long to go. The only consolation is 3rd and 4th isn't too bad when under full load, just on a light throttle.
I think the  CVT is back in the frame as I have discovered that the later 1.4 models fall into the same road tax bracket as my 1.2 (cheaper road tax was a deciding factor in going for a 1.2 in the first place).
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: VicW on November 04, 2017, 06:50:35 PM
I don't think you would regret changing to a CVT Jocko. They are very smooth and economical as they are higher geared then the manual boxes.

Vic.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on November 04, 2017, 08:31:56 PM
The one I was looking at has gone, but the same garage has a nicer one without all the boy racer bits.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: MikeG1944 on November 05, 2017, 10:35:58 AM
Yes low car tax is a bonus, my 2008 CVT is only 135; all my previous cars have been 220.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on November 05, 2017, 12:24:32 PM
The 1.4 i-DSi is 135, the VTEC 115. I currently pay 115 for the 1.2 i-DSi manual.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: sparky Paul on November 05, 2017, 09:20:13 PM
To be honest, the 20 quid is neither here nor there. If running costs are your thing, for most people our age, fuel is the single biggest outgoing.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on November 06, 2017, 10:29:46 AM
No. the extra tax is neither here nor there. Even petrol costs are no longer a worry. I went from a Volvo, giving less than 30 mpg on a good day, to the Jazz giving 50 on a bad day. And my mileage has dropped a fair bit too.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on November 12, 2017, 04:45:48 PM
Went and had a look at a couple of cars today. First I tried the 1.4 EX-T CVT and I am sorry guys, I hated it.
For someone who seldom exceeds 2500 rpm and considers exceeding 3000 rpm "revving the a**e of it", the CVT is not for me. I love automatics, but standard, BorgWarner style. Never tried a DSG but I don't like what I have read regarding their lifespan/reliability.
The other car I tried was a Leaf, a 2010 Acenta. It was brilliant. Now that is what I call an "automatic". If I had had a drive beside my house I would have bought it. Keep it in mind for when I shift over to Midlothian.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: MikeG1944 on November 12, 2017, 05:06:51 PM
Be careful Jocko, the new battery for a Leaf costs nearly 5K (less 1K for old one) to replace when it gives up the ghost, and unless the 2010 car has had a replacement that will be 7 years old; don't think they will hold much charge by them. Looked into it a couple of years ago and found that was why they are difficult to sell, and go relatively cheaply compared to what they cost new.  :-[

See here...
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/89694/nissan-leaf-battery-replacement-to-cost-4920
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on November 12, 2017, 05:50:34 PM
The Auto Express article says they have only had to replace 3 out of 30,000. I just tried the 2010 model because it was local. If I am buying I hope to get a nearly new car.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: MikeG1944 on November 12, 2017, 07:09:29 PM
From what I know about Li-ion batteries, being in the electronics trade since they came out, I think that is extremely optimistic, and think that probably refers to ones that have been replaced in newish cars. After a number of years those type of batteries gradually loose their ability to hold a charge which may not be noticed on short runs but would show up on long ones.
However I hear they are working on some new design of batteries now, different chemical make up, that when available
 will be more effective and charge very quickly, but they are a few years away yet.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on November 12, 2017, 07:42:48 PM
All the manufacturers seem to be seeing longer battery life than projected. I also know that charge cycles are a greater influence than age. I would be putting very few charge cycles on a vehicle, as I will do very little miles.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: sparky Paul on November 12, 2017, 08:06:16 PM
All the manufacturers seem to be seeing longer battery life than projected.

That's how I understood it, current EV batteries are lasting longer than manufacturers anticipated.

They are now talking about the Renault batteries lasting 10 years without significant loss of range, then having a further 10 year life re-appropriated and built into the fast chargers, 20 years before end of life recycling.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: TG on November 12, 2017, 09:19:10 PM
Someone in my club has a 56 plate Prius still running around quite happily on the original battery, if the dealer services the car it's warranted for 100k or 11 years.  The usage profile is probably kinder to hybrids than plug-ins.
--
TG
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: u587162 on November 20, 2017, 06:42:31 PM
Just to add to my previous comment a week or so ago about juddering from my Jazz 56 plate auto, I had a CVT flush done on Fri at Honda in Hemel Hempsted for 150 and this has cured 80% of the juddering I was getting.

I bought my car with 95k miles on the clock last Dec, no idea when the last CVT gear box flush or oil change was done.  The car seems a lot smoother now compared to immediately after the flush.  Perhaps it took some time to settle down and me revving it up a lot since then to heat up the oil.

It still ever so slight judders though when I try and floor the acceleration or when going up the hill.

I just now need to sort out my EGR.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on December 09, 2017, 10:07:30 AM
My wife actually said to me, yesterday, "What is that terrible noise the car is making?". The gearbox is deafening now, so bad that a hard of hearing non driver is concerned. I'll just run it until it gives up the ghost completely, then scrap the car. Don't know what to go for next, but I doubt it will be a Honda.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Hondachap on December 09, 2017, 10:32:35 AM
Jocko perhaps you have been unlucky with your Jazz purchase
I have same model 2007 plate covered 204.000 driving school use
mls gearbox now shot  :(
Had three replacement clutches gear oil replaced each time suppose this could have helped the long life of the box ?
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: culzean on December 09, 2017, 11:41:38 AM
My wife actually said to me, yesterday, "What is that terrible noise the car is making?". The gearbox is deafening now, so bad that a hard of hearing non driver is concerned. I'll just run it until it gives up the ghost completely, then scrap the car. Don't know what to go for next, but I doubt it will be a Honda.

Read around the various makers forums and you will see that every car has their problems both with cars and dealers,  my brother recently bought a secondhand Skoda Ocatvia estate because the Honda Civic estate he wanted was more expensive (they had not long been introduced and second hand ones were rare),  he regrets it now because too many VW parts in it and some strange problems, and nobody can tell him why his engine power light keeps coming on - he loves my Civic and should have followed his instinct.  His wife has a Civic and all my bro has ever done is replace some brake pads and discs and change the oil and filters - car has never missed a beat. 

One of the many quirks of VW group is to use bolts instead of studs to hold wheels on,  when you take last bolt out wheel liable to drop and he was so used to using studs to locate and hold wheel while he screwed nuts back on that he was puzzled why it was done that way,  also if a stud gets thread stripped you can replace it,  if the thread in hub gets stripped what do you do, replace the hub ?   

Since pretty much most car makers started using deep groove ball bearing (cheaper, lower friction but not so goof with thrust or side loads) instead of tapered roller bearings (rugged and good with thrust and side loads) to 'reduce drag in an effort to get last 0.001mpg out of car' quite a few cars get wheel bearing and gearbox problems.  One of my brothers in law had the gearbox on his VW Golf literally disintegrate a few years ago,  and apparently it is not uncommon,  cost him a lot to get it repaired.

Maybe Hondachap has a point about lubrication,  I use gearbox molyslip and when I trade 53 plate GD in at 120,000 miles gearbox still quiet,  the salesman at the dealer asked if box was noisy and test drove it to check and he was happy.  Did Honda sort bearings out by 2007 though ?
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: MartinJG on December 09, 2017, 12:53:25 PM

Culzean

Interesting comment about ball bearing versus roller bearings. Obvious implication is reduced friction which translates into saleability of the vehicle on stats as you suggest. Net result of course is greater wear and tear as the contact point is on one tiny part of the sphere. Fact is, we live in ever shorter economic cycles. Throw in the social/political/economics and I cannot see this being reversed. Everything is now geared to high cycle consumerism which is why the Jazz scores so well on down to earth technology and engineering on a sort of shoestring. Even Mercedes decided a few years ago that they were over engineering their vehicles going back to the days of the ubiquitous 200 which were commonly used as taxis around the world and apparently clocked up a million miles in some cases with a few rebuilds here and there. Thing of the past especially with EV's in sight with more or less one moving part in the engine bay. I think throw away is here forever unless of course the world as we know it collapses and we stumble into the dark ages A La Mad Max.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on December 09, 2017, 02:21:55 PM
My brother and his wife have two BMWs and the older one has cost them an arm and a leg. The only reason they have held on to it is they are so heavily invested in it. Every time it needs something done and he is looking at a grand. And that is not using the BMW dealer!
The last vehicle I owned with a major mechanical problem was my 75 SAAB (worn valve guides). The three cars I had before the Honda were mechanically sound, and the youngest when I parted with it had done 130,500 and the oldest 210,000 miles. Nothing other than the odd ball joint, bush or spring.
I know fine that you can buy a car and have no issues or nothing but troubles. It is the nature of the beast.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: culzean on December 09, 2017, 02:53:26 PM
Fact is, we live in ever shorter economic cycles. Throw in the social/political/economics and I cannot see this being reversed. Everything is now geared to high cycle consumerism which is why the Jazz scores so well on down to earth technology and engineering on a sort of shoestring. Even Mercedes decided a few years ago that they were over engineering their vehicles going back to the days of the ubiquitous 200 which were commonly used as taxis around the world and apparently clocked up a million miles in some cases with a few rebuilds here and there. Thing of the past especially with EV's in sight with more or less one moving part in the engine bay. I think throw away is here forever unless of course the world as we know it collapses and we stumble into the dark ages A La Mad Max.

I am reading a book at the moment called 'Affluenza' by Oliver James - he likens consumerism to a virus ( influenza) and says basically that Affluence is like a disease that started in mainly English speaking world ' an obsessive, envious. keeping-up-with-the-Joneses consumerism that makes us more prone to anxiety, depression and addictions' that is spreading to other developing nations - its main vector is advertising,  and he says the only cure is to think about our needs rather than our wants - it is a reality check on disposable goods and a disposable lifestyle.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on December 09, 2017, 03:21:20 PM
I have never been much for keeping up with the Jones'. Evidence my Nokia "Thick" phone and my small TV. I shop by need rather than want, but it hasn't always been a delight to the women in my life! I don't consider myself tight (I never have two cents to rub together), and since I retired it has become more pressing not to waste money.
Yesterday, when my wife remarked on the gearbox, she asked about repairing it. I pointed out that I could buy something else cheaper than repairing this one. Look on the bright side though, all of the comments I have read about the bearing failure say the gearbox will run forever like that, and until proven otherwise, that is my stratagem.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Stevec1962 on December 09, 2017, 03:23:29 PM
I have never been much for keeping up with the Jones'. Evidence my Nokia "Thick" phone and my small TV. I shop by need rather than want, but it hasn't always been a delight to the women in my life! I don't consider myself tight (I never have two cents to rub together), and since I retired it has become more pressing not to waste money.
Yesterday, when my wife remarked on the gearbox, she asked about repairing it. I pointed out that I could buy something else cheaper than repairing this one. Look on the bright side though, all of the comments I have read about the bearing failure say the gearbox will run forever like that, and until proven otherwise, that is my stratagem.
Just turn radio up lol or get it sorted

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Hondachap on December 09, 2017, 03:57:33 PM
I have never been much for keeping up with the Jones'. Evidence my Nokia "Thick" phone and my small TV. I shop by need rather than want, but it hasn't always been a delight to the women in my life! I don't consider myself tight (I never have two cents to rub together), and since I retired it has become more pressing not to waste money.
Yesterday, when my wife remarked on the gearbox, she asked about repairing it.( I pointed out that I could buy something else cheaper than repairing this one). Look on the bright side though, all of the comments I have read about the bearing failure say the gearbox will run forever like that, and until proven otherwise, that is my stratagem.
Just turn radio up lol or get it sorted

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
330+ vat to remove rebuild replace in Glasgow
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on December 09, 2017, 04:09:18 PM
330+ vat to remove rebuild replace in Glasgow
Who does it for that? A trip through to Glasgow would not be too big a hassle.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Hondachap on December 09, 2017, 04:53:29 PM
330+ vat to remove rebuild replace in Glasgow
Who does it for that? A trip through to Glasgow would not be too big a hassle.
  Clutch and Gearbox express 23 Gillies Lane Baillieston Glasgow 0141 771 3989 Really good job turn around two days
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Stevec1962 on December 09, 2017, 05:45:50 PM
I have never been much for keeping up with the Jones'. Evidence my Nokia "Thick" phone and my small TV. I shop by need rather than want, but it hasn't always been a delight to the women in my life! I don't consider myself tight (I never have two cents to rub together), and since I retired it has become more pressing not to waste money.
Yesterday, when my wife remarked on the gearbox, she asked about repairing it.( I pointed out that I could buy something else cheaper than repairing this one). Look on the bright side though, all of the comments I have read about the bearing failure say the gearbox will run forever like that, and until proven otherwise, that is my stratagem.
Just turn radio up lol or get it sorted

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
330+ vat to remove rebuild replace in Glasgow
I paid that including VAT and Borg bec clutch in Wakefield

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Hondachap on December 09, 2017, 06:32:43 PM
I have never been much for keeping up with the Jones'. Evidence my Nokia "Thick" phone and my small TV. I shop by need rather than want, but it hasn't always been a delight to the women in my life! I don't consider myself tight (I never have two cents to rub together), and since I retired it has become more pressing not to waste money.
Yesterday, when my wife remarked on the gearbox, she asked about repairing it.( I pointed out that I could buy something else cheaper than repairing this one). Look on the bright side though, all of the comments I have read about the bearing failure say the gearbox will run forever like that, and until proven otherwise, that is my stratagem.
Just turn radio up lol or get it sorted

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
330+ vat to remove rebuild replace in Glasgow
I paid that including VAT and Borg bec clutch in Wakefield

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
yes you can pay that easy at some garages for clutch alone :o
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: culzean on December 09, 2017, 07:00:09 PM
I have never been much for keeping up with the Jones'. Evidence my Nokia "Thick" phone and my small TV. I shop by need rather than want, but it hasn't always been a delight to the women in my life! I don't consider myself tight (I never have two cents to rub together), and since I retired it has become more pressing not to waste money.
Yesterday, when my wife remarked on the gearbox, she asked about repairing it.( I pointed out that I could buy something else cheaper than repairing this one). Look on the bright side though, all of the comments I have read about the bearing failure say the gearbox will run forever like that, and until proven otherwise, that is my stratagem.
Just turn radio up lol or get it sorted

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
330+ vat to remove rebuild replace in Glasgow
I paid that including VAT and Borg bec clutch in Wakefield

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
yes you can pay that easy at some garages for clutch alone :o

Labour for getting the gearbox out and refitting will be most of the cost,  the bearings are pretty cheap - worth getting  clutch done at same time.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: sparky Paul on December 09, 2017, 07:02:47 PM
I know fine that you can buy a car and have no issues or nothing but troubles. It is the nature of the beast.

Unless you buy a Renault.  ;)
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Hondachap on December 09, 2017, 07:21:13 PM
I have never been much for keeping up with the Jones'. Evidence my Nokia "Thick" phone and my small TV. I shop by need rather than want, but it hasn't always been a delight to the women in my life! I don't consider myself tight (I never have two cents to rub together), and since I retired it has become more pressing not to waste money.
Yesterday, when my wife remarked on the gearbox, she asked about repairing it.( I pointed out that I could buy something else cheaper than repairing this one). Look on the bright side though, all of the comments I have read about the bearing failure say the gearbox will run forever like that, and until proven otherwise, that is my stratagem.
Just turn radio up lol or get it sorted

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
330+ vat to remove rebuild replace in Glasgow
I paid that including VAT and Borg bec clutch in Wakefield

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
yes you can pay that easy at some garages for clutch alone :o

Labour for getting the gearbox out and refitting will be most of the cost,  the bearings are pretty cheap - worth getting  clutch done at same time.
Agreed 70 plus vat
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: TG on December 09, 2017, 08:41:11 PM
99+v for a gearbox removed and ready for the son in law to fit, choice of 3 manual although I'd avoid the white one.
KY11 1HZ
https://www.u-pull-it.co.uk/search/catalogue/Breaker-Parts/yard/Edinburgh/cartype/Vehicles-Under-7.5-Tonnes/model/Jazz
Very close by, 6 of them now if SiL is up for it.  U-Pull remove gearboxes for you as they are a bit heavy (jacks etc. banned on site)
--
TG
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on December 09, 2017, 10:33:21 PM
From what it says on the link, you have to remove the box yourself at the Edinburgh yard.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on December 10, 2017, 10:00:57 AM
Received a quote from a garage in Glasgow.

Repaired in situ for 3270 plus vat
180 plus vat without a car attached


They obviously don't want the hassle of having to take the box out of the car!
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: sparky Paul on December 10, 2017, 10:55:45 AM
Received a quote from a garage in Glasgow.

Repaired in situ for 3270 plus vat
180 plus vat without a car attached


They obviously don't want the hassle of having to take the box out of the car!

Are you sure he hasn't slipped an extra zero on by mistake? :o

[edit: The more I think about it, I would be asking if that was a typo.]


I guess the 180+VAT quoted is okay, if that's all in for the full bearing kit - works out around 100 labour?

It looks a straightforward box to split, and if you were really tight you could do the noisy input shaft bearings only at 25-30, maybe some sundry sealant, and labour of course. Refitting would probably require a clutch & thrust bearing kit at 60-70, and a couple of litres of Honda MTF or equivalent.

The problem with a secondhand gearbox is that while it may be okay now, you don't know how far along the road to failure it is. From what I have seen, a jazz gearbox for around 100+VAT would be cheap, there are plenty asking 200+. It's supply and demand, plenty of duff gearboxes about, and a healthy demand for good secondhand ones. Engines on the other hand, seem to go for peanuts.

As most of the labour is actually removing and replacing the box, the most sensible thing to me is to repair the original box. Most garages will remove the gearbox and send it to a local gearbox specialist, my MOT man does that with all gearbox faults. I think you would be looking at a few hours labour at each end, and he charges 30/hour inc. VAT.

On the subject of gearbox oil, I read earlier some discussion of the merits of more regular oil changes. It's a small manual gearbox on the Jazz, it contains only 1.5 litres of oil. That small a volume of oil will be kept very busy, and I would think that changing it more often would not do any harm at all.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: u587162 on December 10, 2017, 12:14:11 PM
1.5 litres for gear oil??

My Honda garage used 2 can which is 8 litres for my auto transmission flush on my honda jazz.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: MartinJG on December 10, 2017, 12:30:51 PM
1.5 litres for gear oil??

My Honda garage used 2 can which is 8 litres for my auto transmission flush on my honda jazz.

That seems a lot for a gearbox. Shouldn't think the engine sump is much more than 3.5 litres. Are you sure they didn't charge you for 8 litres?
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: u587162 on December 10, 2017, 12:32:40 PM
that was for a gear box flush.  I assumed that was what he was talking about but could be wrong.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on December 10, 2017, 02:50:48 PM
Received a quote from a garage in Glasgow.

Repaired in situ for 3270 plus vat
180 plus vat without a car attached


They obviously don't want the hassle of having to take the box out of the car!

Are you sure he hasn't slipped an extra zero on by mistake? :o

[edit: The more I think about it, I would be asking if that was a typo.]

I did ask and just got a reply. The zero wasn't a typo - the 3 was. 270+ VAT.

I am loath to fit a secondhand gearbox. It is a lot to go through and find it is no better than the one I have.

1.5 litres for gear oil??
According to the Haynes manual it is 1.5 litres.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Hondachap on December 10, 2017, 05:37:59 PM
Received a quote from a garage in Glasgow.

Repaired in situ for 3270 plus vat
180 plus vat without a car attached


They obviously don't want the hassle of having to take the box out of the car!
[/quote
Are you sure he hasn't slipped an extra zero on by mistake? :o

[edit: The more I think about it, I would be asking if that was a typo.]

I did ask and just got a reply. The zero wasn't a typo - the 3 was. 270+ VAT.

I am loath to fit a secondhand gearbox. It is a lot to go through and find it is no better than the one I have.

1.5 litres for gear oil??
According to the Haynes manual it is 1.5 litres.
What garage gave that quote Jocko
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on December 10, 2017, 05:56:23 PM
Top Gear, Rutherglen.

http://www.topgear.uk.net/home.html (http://www.topgear.uk.net/home.html)
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: sparky Paul on December 10, 2017, 09:38:57 PM
I did ask and just got a reply. The zero wasn't a typo - the 3 was. 270+ VAT.

I am loath to fit a secondhand gearbox. It is a lot to go through and find it is no better than the one I have.

270+VAT sounds fair enough, I'm sure I would prefer to go down that route rather than a used 'box.

If it's not had one recently, add a clutch kit for 60 and you should be good for another 11 years  ;)
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: sparky Paul on December 10, 2017, 09:54:49 PM
1.5 litres for gear oil??

My Honda garage used 2 can which is 8 litres for my auto transmission flush on my honda jazz.

Jocko's is a manual gearbox, the auto contains a lot more fluid, 5.4 litres in fact. A change will only swap out 3.2 litres, and a couple of flushes would be required to change most of the oil.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on December 12, 2017, 06:57:02 AM
Was out for a bit of a run yesterday, so once car was well warmed up I gave it a bit of a - for me - thrash. Several times I took it up over 4000 rpm and even as high as 4400 rpm! A quick blast along the Regional Road at 70+ completed the trip. Well, this morning the gearbox is considerably quieter than it has been. Not fixed by any manor of means but WAY quieter than usual. Perhaps the sudden shock has jolted the swarf out of the input bearing.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: sparky Paul on December 12, 2017, 08:45:46 AM
Is it worth checking the oil level Jocko?
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on December 12, 2017, 09:51:56 AM
I never bother with a gearbox. If it is not leaking out there is nowhere for it to go. For all I know it has the same oil in the box that it came over from Japan with. Or even none at all! If it it still running come its next service in June I will get my son-in-law to change it. He's out every night, repairing snow ploughs and gritters this time of the year, so doesn't want to be bothered with my bag of bolts.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: sparky Paul on December 12, 2017, 06:57:47 PM
If a thrashing quietened it down, I think I might be poking a bit of wire in the level hole.

It's not that unusual to lose small amounts of oil over longer periods via lipseals and not notice any wet, especially when bearings are getting a bit worn.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: TG on December 12, 2017, 09:13:49 PM
When I changed my gearbox oil at ~100k (garage did it at ~70k) it had quite a bit of fine non-metallic bits in it, a lot smaller than sand but bigger than flour. Same sound after the change but more slick between 1st & 2nd, I gave it a before and after recording with a spectrum analyser on the phone to see if there was a difference, it wasn't noticeable.  In theory I could compare this to see if the input shaft bearing has got noisy over the year.  Just held the phone case against the gearbox shell, I was going to subtract the declutched sample from the neutral one but that was too much effort.
--
TG
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: sparky Paul on December 12, 2017, 11:20:36 PM
Interesting stuff!

Most noisy ball bearings are due to pitting of the outer raceway - once they are damaged, that's it. The only saving grace is that they can run for years making this noise.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on December 13, 2017, 07:00:01 AM
The only saving grace is that they can run for years making this noise.
My hope entirely!
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: culzean on December 13, 2017, 09:05:11 AM
Interesting stuff!

Most noisy ball bearings are due to pitting of the outer raceway - once they are damaged, that's it. The only saving grace is that they can run for years making this noise.

Agree,  when my mechanic mate did my wifes GD box he showed me the bearing that had 'failed' - only one is affected.  When he spun it it spun very freely with the very faintest of noises' of course when under load and mounted in gearbox casing that noise would be amplified a lot.   He broke it open and could see the faint scuff and pits in the race.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on January 12, 2018, 06:55:31 AM
Noise from the gearbox is getting embarrassingly loud, outside car. I will have to do something about it. Sitting inside, with the car in neutral and the engine ticking over, you have to raise your voice to have a conversation!
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: degzi on January 12, 2018, 10:54:36 AM
I have never been much for keeping up with the Jones'. Evidence my Nokia "Thick" phone and my small TV. I shop by need rather than want, but it hasn't always been a delight to the women in my life! I don't consider myself tight (I never have two cents to rub together), and since I retired it has become more pressing not to waste money.
Yesterday, when my wife remarked on the gearbox, she asked about repairing it.( I pointed out that I could buy something else cheaper than repairing this one). Look on the bright side though, all of the comments I have read about the bearing failure say the gearbox will run forever like that, and until proven otherwise, that is my stratagem.
Just turn radio up lol or get it sorted

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
330+ vat to remove rebuild replace in Glasgow
I paid that including VAT and Borg bec clutch in Wakefield

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

Where's the place in Wakefield. ? I used to live down that way, might have to have a trip down when mine gets worse. Does he do day turn around.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on January 12, 2018, 02:50:29 PM
I popped in to a couple of local garages today, to see about gearbox repair. The first guy I went to declined quoting, as he has only one ramp and couldn't tie it up while gearbox was out. The second was a bigger garage (part of a small local chain). The mechanic I spoke to is ex Honda and told me that the last one they did cost "around 900" and was only that cheap because he replaced the bearings himself. For non Honda gearboxes they send them "down south", to a specialist repairer, and that puts the price over 1000. I think I will be availing myself of the services of Top Gear, in Rutherglen. It is a bit inconvenient for me, but I could get a taxi to run me back after dropping off, then again to pick it up, and still be well in pocket. As it is I will just have to bus it! Top Gear's quote, 260 + VAT in car, 180 + VAT out of car. I'll arrange it as soon as I have a free space, time-wise (when I don't NEED car).
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jem on January 12, 2018, 04:18:09 PM
That's a good price. I was told by my mechanic there is only one place in Norwich that does gearboxes like that. It cost me 700 and I had the car back in under 24 hours.

I did try other places but no one wanted to quote as they didn't do that sort of work. I was told that even the main dealer would just remove the box and just send it to the company I used.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on January 12, 2018, 08:15:09 PM
The firm I intend using
http://www.topgear.uk.net/home.html (http://www.topgear.uk.net/home.html)
do not remove the gearbox. They open the box in position. Obviously they know what they are doing and have the fixtures to do it. That is how they do it for that price.
I had asked about them changing the clutch and that is when he explained they don't go near the clutch per se.
Actually, his recommendation when doing transmission work is not to touch the clutch unless there is issues. They have found, by experience, more bother with new clutches than with leaving the old clutch!
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: degzi on January 12, 2018, 08:54:00 PM
Let us know how it goes, 2.5 hour drive to Glasgow but worth it for me if it's that cheap
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: peteo48 on January 12, 2018, 09:12:38 PM
Just off the top of my head that does seem a decent price. I tend to think - gearbox? Add a nought!

Like the way the two identical blue Jazzes in this thread are facing opposite directions ;D
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: TG on January 13, 2018, 05:37:12 PM
Noise from the gearbox is getting embarrassingly loud, outside car. I will have to do something about it. Sitting inside, with the car in neutral and the engine ticking over, you have to raise your voice to have a conversation!
Press down on clutch?
--
TG
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on January 13, 2018, 05:54:52 PM
Sitting inside, with the car in neutral and the engine ticking over, you have to raise your voice to have a conversation!
That was just to let you know how loud it is. It is not something I would do through choice. If I get out with the engine running the sound is clearly evident. That means that as I drive past pedestrians, particularly if I am going up through the gears, the racket is plainly audible to them. When I am stopped and the engine is running, I always keep the clutch depressed these days.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: sparky Paul on January 13, 2018, 06:19:38 PM
It's a fair price, even if they are only doing the input shaft bearings. Whilst you probably wouldn't find cheaper, you shouldn't have to pay a lot more either for that job, but you need someone who is prepared the split the box themselves. Any mention of sending a gearbox to a 'specialist', and you need to get the wallet ready.

The firm I intend using
http://www.topgear.uk.net/home.html (http://www.topgear.uk.net/home.html)
do not remove the gearbox. They open the box in position.

I would be amazed if they split the gearbox in situ, you have to split the gearbox in two to get to the input shaft bearings. For a start, it's almost impossible without everything dropping on the floor! Additionally, unless the gearbox is removed from the engine, you can't replace the input shaft seal - it's behind the clutch release bearing.

It doesn't take long at all to drop a gearbox out on a ramp, and changing the input shaft bearings looks straightforward on this gearbox, from what I can see. You don't need to disturb the clutch at all, but it pays to replace it whilst the gearbox is off if it's not been done recently.

If you had done a few of these before, I think you could have the whole job done in 2-3 hours, if you don't hit any snags.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on January 13, 2018, 06:33:13 PM
I spoke to a Honda mechanic and he said gearbox in and out, 5 hours!
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on January 13, 2018, 06:43:41 PM
This is the email I received from Top Gear, when I asked about getting the clutch done:

We don't take the full gearbox out, the reason we can do the repair at that price is we strip it in position.
our advice is always if your clutch is Ok leave it alone, you wouldn't believe how many new clutches are faulty...
Robin


They appear to be a long standing and reputable transmission specialist. I imagine they split the box from the bell-housing then work on the bench
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: sparky Paul on January 13, 2018, 07:23:11 PM
I spoke to a Honda mechanic and he said gearbox in and out, 5 hours!

That's "by the book". Have a looky at the Haynes book to get the idea, most of the stuff they tell you to remove, you just unbolt from the gearbox and shove out of the way. With a lift and a bit of assistance, an hour or so, if you are geared up for it (no pun intended).

I imagine they split the box from the bell-housing then work on the bench

The bell housing is part of the gearbox end plate, so split that from the gearbox and it all comes apart. Even if there was some way to do this, I would imagine they would struggle to seal the joint again with it vertical. I still can't see how they can do it without taking the gearbox off.

If they do actually manage to do it in situ, I would love to watch! I might learn something...
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: peteo48 on January 14, 2018, 11:21:50 AM
It'll be like having a new car when it's done. There is nothing worse than a long running noisy fault.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: Jocko on January 15, 2018, 02:53:21 PM
Well that's it booked in for repair. I have to take it to Glasgow (Rutherglen, actually) on Monday morning, then pick it back up on Tuesday. Only fly in the ointment is the travelling home from Rutherglen to Kirkcaldy, then back the next day. Two buses and about  two and a half hours each way! Still, cannot wait to get it done.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: sparky Paul on January 15, 2018, 03:10:31 PM
You have to get it done Jocko, the gearbox should be good for the rest of the life of the car.

Your Jazz looks too good to abandon it... "better the devil you know", and all that.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: culzean on January 15, 2018, 04:20:26 PM
You have to get it done Jocko, the gearbox should be good for the rest of the life of the car.

Your Jazz looks too good to abandon it... "better the devil you know", and all that.

At least you know car history which is worth a lot,  I see some 52 plate and quite a few early (2003) still zipping around our area so the Jazz is well capable of lasting a long time and still being reliable.   As normal with modern cars the  powertrain is capable of outlasting the body - your 2006 is still a youngster.
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: peteo48 on January 15, 2018, 04:49:05 PM
Lot of 10 year old and more Jazzes round our way as well although I do live in bungalow central ;D
Title: Re: Gearbox shot.
Post by: MartinJG on January 15, 2018, 05:21:55 PM
Jocko

Good luck with the box job. I have to decide whether to get the bearings done or not so it will be interesting to see how you get on.