Mk4 2021 Jazz Brake failure

[Spodric]

Hi, new Member here. I joined because on Tuesday my Jazz SR 2020 with 13k miles had the same brake failure when I started it at home. Undriveable, confirmed by the AA's Agent. It is booked in to the local Honda dealer next Thursday. It will need to be recovered and trucked there. Dealer says this is their second Jazz Mk4 brake failure.
Luckily I do have some remaining cover under the 5 Year Care Package warranty. I spoke to Honda Administration. I only have 72 hours car hire paid for by Honda UK. They say because the repair takes only 2.4 hours, they won't extend the car hire. Only if the repair takes over 8 hours do they pay for longer car hire. All still subject to the dealer's workshop report anyway. This is a known common fault so Honda Admin expects it will be covered by the warranty.
I am fuming because I am entitled to claim back all my loss (including any extended car hire and other expenses resulting from this latent defect aka "failure") from honda UK. See the indemnity expressed in warranty clause 13 b) ii. I will not let this go. Legal claim to follow if necessary.
The other issue as mentioned in this thread is lack of an official recall by Honda UK. Ridiculous. How can this common brake failure not be a safety issue?

[davejazz]

Welcome to our forum Spodric.

2.4 hours repair time is fine, but will the dealer have the part in stock, or will you have to wait a month?

Just sayin’.

[Lincolnshire Rambler]

Well hope is faster than my replacement front wiring loom due sometime in
May … abysmal parts delivery from Honda !!

[ColinB]

Sadly, this is the reality of Just-in-Time manufacturing. To reduce their costs, Honda will not have a warehouse full of spare parts, they will have screwed down their suppliers to provide exactly what they need when they need it to match their production schedule. So any unexpected or unusual demands for spares, such as these brake system components or Rambler’s wiring loom, have to be added into that production schedule. And then you have the shipping time. I doubt this is unique to Honda, most if not all manufacturers are like this these days.

[Dave T]

From the excellent post on page 4 (by FMIB) it appears this issue only arose with model years 2019/20 ?

Has there been any evidence of failure in models made later, perhaps 22/23?  I read that the issue can arise with real low mileage cars as well.  I have just purchased a nearly new Jazz advance.  Another two years plus warranty, but as I seem to now drive a Lap Top on wheels computer wise, it will be a wise decision to extend the warranty I think !

But if no issues, what changed re the Brake simulation bit ?

[Lord Voltermore]

From the excellent post on page 4 (by FMIB) it appears this issue only arose with model years 2019/20 ?

I think that is a translation from Japanese and some dates are given in years of the Reiwa (the latest era in the official Japanese calendar,which  began on 1 may 2019.)  This means the latest  date given is february 2022 ,and it is the date the car was built  so some  cars delivered to customers in 2022 are potentially  affected. But less likely to affect 2023 cars , even allowing for a long time on board ship.   But this assumes cars for export were modified at the same time as home market cars, and that the modification has solved the problem.

  Incidentally  another post says the chassis/engine numbers given are a series used on the Japanese home market and cannot be used to cross check chassis numbers for cars delivered to Europe. 

I agree about the increasing  complexity of new cars  (not just Honda) . As the cars become older  I assume  more independent garages will learn how to fix them at a more competitive  price ,  but meanwhile its comforting to have a warranty . i wont be keeping it 14 years like I did the last one   

[Nicksey]

I find the VIN number list a bit confusing, and a bit of a grey area regarding what is a Japanese car and how does it differ from a EU car in regards to the number. As the problem seems to be age related rather than mileage, and the first generation cars starting to develop the fault after 3 years.. are we now going to see more cars with the fault as the 3 year mark rolls on?... or, do we assume that as the model was recalled in Japan, they have limited the fault to the first gen and subsequent models are OK 
I am fortunate that I have the 5 year plan, which comes with the extra 2 year warranty. As this is now a known fault, and could not be classed as normal 'wear and tear', I feel assured that should my September '22 Jazz develop the fault in 3 to 4 years of it's life it will be repaired.

[madasafish]

If we had some US States consumer law, this debate would be unnecessary.

[Spodric]

Welcome to our forum Spodric.

2.4 hours repair time is fine, but will the dealer have the part in stock, or will you have to wait a month?

Just sayin’.

I guess that I will find out on Thursday if the brake simulator / modulator part is in stock, or how long it will take them to get one. The pressure will be on the dealer because they have very limited space to store my Jazz. Meanwhile I need to extend my car hire until at least Friday, maybe longer. Fingers crossed that they can complete the repair on Thursday but I am not going to hold my breath.

[Spodric]

If we had some US States consumer law, this debate would be unnecessary.

England does have excellent consumer law, even the possibility of class claims, although the latter is still fairly new and probably under-used.

There is a legal remedy by way of a claim for damages from the supplying car dealer for breach of contract, for those unlucky Jazz owners whose repair costs for this latent defect are not covered by an extended warranty. The Honda warranty is always in addition to statutory consumer protection rights. Never in lieu of such rights. The T&Cs on the dealer's order form cannot exclude or limit these statutory consumer rights. Do not be fobbed off.

If you have legal expenses insurance, check your policy wording to see if it will help fund professional advice and a claim against the supplying dealer in this situation.

[Spodric]

Having re-read this thread, the forum Members who posted about this brake failure on start-up now number a total of 8 including myself. Rather a large number for a relatively small membership. They are:

BigT (thread starter), PeteS, BeckyDuck101, blythpower, Daffodil, Chris52, Cobb2, and most recently me.

I am waiting for my Jazz to be recovered today by the AA (part of the "discretionary" Honda Care service) and delivered to Bath Honda this afternoon. Update to follow when I have more information.

I suggest that anyone else who experiences this failure and the accompanying cascade of dash warning symbols and bleeps, records it on their smartphone, just in case their dealership finds the fault has fixed itself. I have made such a video in case of a dispute.

[embee]

I can't remember the exact details now, it was a long time ago, but when I was managing in the powertrain engineering department at a car manufacturer there were strict rules/laws for cars sold in the USA regarding emission compliance. If there were more than a handful (3??) of the same failures which affected emissions significantly we were legally required to do a recall and fix all potentially affected cars (batches of components etc). I assume safety related systems had similar strict rules.
I'd be surprised if a manufacturer could get away without doing something similar here in the UK. Presumably other European countries will be affected too, though of course we are now "free" of having to comply with EU regs which might protect the consumer, our govt can do what they like more or less.

[Cobb2]

I have just visited my dealer today and the full price for repair would be £1797.34 less any goodwill adjustment from Honda. The garage expect there to be many more cases at other dealers, maybe 100's based on extrapolating their experience  ( one source says that there were around 130 dealers in June 2022). Needless to say I (and I expect many others of you) am not going to just accept a small goodwill adjustment. Apart from phoning Honda Customer Care and awaiting an update, I have also sent Honda UK a long letter by post describing my situation as a long term careful owner (I used post since on their get in touch box only 500 words were allowed - nowhere near enough ! - and I didn't find an email address at the time ).  I also added my views on the broader situation - mentioning the Japan recall with an admittance that there was a manufacturing fault, numerous other owners with the same problem, the effect this could have on Honda's reputation and the fact that general publicity about this was needed for all other owners- a UK recall in fact. Also today I have been given one example of an owner actually experiencing the fault whilst driving in slow moving traffic. This really is potentially a massive safety issue.

[RomanianJazz]

A lot of people had problems with Ford's wet belt system which was rapidly deteriorating and pieces of belt would end up clogging parts of the engine. After a lot of bad publicity, Ford finally caved and offered to upgrade the belt for free, for all cars, even if out of warranty. ( as far as i remember )

Problem was, they didn't pay back people that repaired the issue themselves, or even worse, had their engines destroyed.

My point is, the time to work together and make bad publicity for Honda is now, not later.

[chicksee]

Getting quite concerned now, 2020 plate and low mileage seems to be a common fault now.
Only one year left of guarantee so if it goes wrong it will hopefully be within this time.