Author Topic: Help! I am confused  (Read 16923 times)

Skyrider

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Re: Help! I am confused
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2017, 09:34:43 AM »

Laziness I guess but that's what people want.

Too true, there is a saying, which probably originates in the USA. You buy horsepower, but drive torque. This comes from the big low powered high torque V8 engines. A reason I used diesel for 30odd years when I was a high mileage driver. Fortunately I have not forgotten how to drive a low torque petrol car. And it is ideal for my current use. I usually run my cars for at least 100,000 miles and am looking for a simple reliable engine and car. The current trend of leasing a car like a mobile phone is not suitable for me.

culzean

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Re: Help! I am confused
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2017, 09:45:59 AM »
I have no problem with using an engine as it is intended and designed to be used. Why do some people seem to be terrified of using its rev range?  You will not hurt it. If you want a low reving engine buy a diesel.

Fair comment but people are becoming accustomed to effortless acceleration both from turbo charged diesels and the new generation of turbo charged petrol engines. It's all to do with how a car feels. It's why people rave about the acceleration of electric cars - the Nissan Leaf has more or less identical performance to the Jazz - 0-60 in around 11 seconds - but delivers its torque almost immediately.

None of this bothers me as I am an old git and drive pretty conservatively these days so the Jazz suits me fine but people want effortless acceleration, they don't want to have to push the car.

Laziness I guess but that's what people want.

People better get used to not driving Diesels as they won't be around for much longer, same with turbo petrol really as they have trouble with NOx as well.   My brother is a lifelong Diesel man,  but his next car will be a petrol,  he hates the complication of modern diesels and also realises that if he gets a  Diesel today,  in 12 months time it will be worth peanuts (if he can sell it at all).
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

DaveBerks

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Re: Help! I am confused
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2017, 10:09:22 AM »
Just been driving a 2016 family hatchback (by a major world car maker) 1.4 turbo petrol automatic for a week. The acceleration was instant and I can understand why people (including car magazine journalists) become addicted to these turbo engines. However for me there are several downsides. This kind of performance could be described as 'fun,fun,fun' but is totally inappropriate for local road driving conditions if not downright dangerous in terms of speed and relationship with safety minded speed limits (pedestrian and cyclist safety included). Having said that the car did have a speed limiter which was essential to use to keep the speed down (this is surely a crazy necessity). The second downside was economy. 37 MPG average (according to the car's computer) compared to my MK3 Jazz CVT of 52 MPG. People DO NOT seem to relate their speed of travel to MPG and do not reduce their speed even when the price of fuel goes up. Speed is time and time seems to be in short supply these days everyone being in hurry to get from A to B and being stuck in traffic congestion a lot of the time aggravates this. So use of the accelerator (or rather not having to use the accelerator much because a turbo does it for you) is a way for them to hit back at time and have a little fun, as well as competing with the other drivers also stuck or held back in the traffic congestion. Once they get on the motorway they tend to migrate to the fast lane where the driving conditions are just a speeded up version of the congestion they experience on local roads. This can happen easily with turbo engines. It's dog eats dog. I would prefer to keep out of it.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 10:29:16 AM by DaveBerks »

culzean

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Re: Help! I am confused
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2017, 11:05:28 AM »
The second downside was economy. 37 MPG average (according to the car's computer) compared to my MK3 Jazz CVT of 52 MPG. People DO NOT seem to relate their speed of travel to MPG and do not reduce their speed even when the price of fuel goes up.

You don't get something for nothing,  more power needs more fuel.  The petrol engine suffers from something a diesel does not - pumping losses,  this means the petrol engine is most of the time sucking against a closed or partly closed throttle (more so at lower revs) which takes power to do it, the diesel does not have a throttle, if you want it to go faster you squirt more fuel in.   By downsizing a petrol engine and 'running it harder' (throttle open more for a given speed) by fitting a turbo makers reduced the pumping losses and so increased efficiency (also less friction),  but as the turbo engine runs hotter, also NOx increased,  so we will probably be going back to larger non-turbo engines to reduce NOx (and in most cases better mpg ironically).
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 03:48:10 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

guest5079

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Re: Help! I am confused
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2017, 02:47:26 PM »
Many many years ago, I worked with a chap, who drove a Lotus 7, I believe now called a Caterham 7. Said car had a Ford engine with a Turbo? more probably a supercharger. He was in traffic in Bayswater, higher side of Hyde Park and decided to beat the traffic to the next lights. Oh dear, very expensive as he must have pushed the revs too high and was left sitting in heavy traffic having deposited what was originally an engine all along the road.
Yes, I know things have moved on but there will always be someone trying to push the envelope.

JohnAlways

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Re: Help! I am confused
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2017, 09:27:33 AM »
Good day, as the demise of diesel seems to be on the agenda, where does that leave the caravan owner for instance? Relatively small (2.2 litre) diesels can happily pull medium sized caravans. Camper vans have vastly superior mpg using diesel.
I don't drive either but a Jazz isn't the answer. Are we back to 3 litre V8 petrols or a boom in static caravans.
Just a thought!

happy Monday  ;D

Downsizer

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Re: Help! I am confused
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2017, 09:46:17 AM »
Does anyone out there regret buying the Mk3?
I have no regrets about changing from an early MK 2 manual to a MK 3 CVT, though I'm not suggesting it's a vast improvement.  I have no problem with the engine - you soon get used to using the right foot appropriately.  The EU has adopted Real World emissions testing and expects to bring it into force in September 2017.  Small petrol turbos may have difficulties passing this, so if Honda doesn't get type approval for a turbo Jazz before then, it may never happen.  I'm getting real world consumption of 51 mpg, an improvement of about 10% over the Mk 2.m
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 10:32:39 AM by Downsizer »

culzean

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Re: Help! I am confused
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2017, 09:49:23 AM »
Good day, as the demise of diesel seems to be on the agenda, where does that leave the caravan owner for instance? Relatively small (2.2 litre) diesels can happily pull medium sized caravans. Camper vans have vastly superior mpg using diesel.
I don't drive either but a Jazz isn't the answer. Are we back to 3 litre V8 petrols or a boom in static caravans.
Just a thought!

happy Monday  ;D

I read a piece the other day about a family that bought a Diesel motorhome and found out later that because they lived within London congestion charge zone it would cost them £100 a day to keep it by their house, and £500 fine for not paying.  There seems to be a few electric delivery vans appearing in London, and some experts believe there is more chance of EV of the future being used for commercial purposes and EV cars not so popular,  this is because of more structured routes for deliveries and better planned charging opportunities.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

andruec

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Re: Help! I am confused
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2017, 10:42:46 AM »
Good day, as the demise of diesel seems to be on the agenda, where does that leave the caravan owner for instance? Relatively small (2.2 litre) diesels can happily pull medium sized caravans. Camper vans have vastly superior mpg using diesel.
I don't drive either but a Jazz isn't the answer. Are we back to 3 litre V8 petrols or a boom in static caravans.
Just a thought!

happy Monday  ;D
Maybe caravans have changed a lot in the last twenty years but my family pulled various four-birth models around large swathes of the UK and even into France and Germany with cars that had between 1.8 and 2.0 litre petrol engines.

For instance here is a picture of everyone except me (in much, much younger days) and a caravan happily pulled by a 1.8l Nissan Bluebird.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 10:45:46 AM by andruec »

John Ratsey

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Re: Help! I am confused
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2017, 11:34:23 AM »
Good day, as the demise of diesel seems to be on the agenda, where does that leave the caravan owner for instance?
I think it's more a matter of steering people away from diesels by tightening up on the emissions rules, regulations and measurements. These are most likely to impact on the small engines. However, this will take some years to substantially reduce the number of diesel vehicles on the roads unless the government either has a scrappage scheme (which the manufacturers would love) or changes the annual tax to include an air quality level on diesel engined vehicles.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

peteo48

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Re: Help! I am confused
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2017, 01:37:05 PM »
Just been driving a 2016 family hatchback (by a major world car maker) 1.4 turbo petrol automatic for a week. The acceleration was instant and I can understand why people (including car magazine journalists) become addicted to these turbo engines. However for me there are several downsides. This kind of performance could be described as 'fun,fun,fun' but is totally inappropriate for local road driving conditions if not downright dangerous in terms of speed and relationship with safety minded speed limits (pedestrian and cyclist safety included).

That's a really good point. One of the faster Teslas does 0-60 in 2.6 seconds and I read a review which said that this level of acceleration is absolutely dangerous in the wrong hands. An over enthusiastic right foot and suddenly you are doing 60 without knowing it.

culzean

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Re: Help! I am confused
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2017, 04:23:28 PM »
That's a really good point. One of the faster Teslas does 0-60 in 2.6 seconds and I read a review which said that this level of acceleration is absolutely dangerous in the wrong hands. An over enthusiastic right foot and suddenly you are doing 60 without knowing it.

I don't know how many times the Tesla will do 0-60 in that time before battery is flat, they call it 'ludicrous' mode LOL.

We all know what effect hard acceleration has on fuel consumption in a 'normal' car,  can't see that Tesla would be any different,  the Tesla battery range is calculated at a steady 55mph,  anything over that speed drops the range.  In a test I saw recently doing UK motorway speeds dropped the range from 300 to just over 200 miles.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Paulwhitt20

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Re: Help! I am confused
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2017, 06:58:38 PM »
It's all very well doing 0 to 60 in 2.6 seconds, but by the time you have realised you are doing 60 and stopped planting your foot on the floor you are going a lot faster. 

guest1372

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Re: Help! I am confused
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2017, 11:48:55 PM »
I read a piece the other day about a family that bought a Diesel motorhome and found out later that because they lived within London congestion charge zone it would cost them £100 a day to keep it by their house, and £500 fine for not paying.
My London home is 200m outside the CC zone so I'm quite conscious of the rules.  Residents within the CCZ get a 90% discount +£10 annual fee on one car per resident (DVLA + Electoral register), so you have to put one vehicle in each family members name.  Day parking on your drive/garage/NCP is not charged, kerbside is chargeable* (£10.50 - 90% = £1.05 pd) in addition to any resident permit charges.

Living near the border grants no discount.
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TG

* If it doesn't move it's unlikely to be recorded by a camera, so your AutoPay account won't be debited.

richardfrost

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Re: Help! I am confused
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2017, 11:51:34 AM »
...he hates the complication of modern diesels and also realises that if he gets a  Diesel today,  in 12 months time it will be worth peanuts (if he can sell it at all).

There's an alternate view that people who want/prefer diesels will be pushed more to the second hand market due to the increasing cost and tax implications on new vehicles, and this may artificially inflate the value of recent reliable diesels. Whichever way, it will be interesting to see what happens.

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