Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 697002 times)

ColinB

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #855 on: March 19, 2018, 08:04:08 AM »
... once the crossover point is reached, where the cost of buying and running a pure EV is less than that of ICE and Hybrid vehicles, there will be no stopping the change.
Arguments based simply on cost of BEV vs ICE ignore quite a significant elephant in the room, which is the convenience of ICEs. If Joe Public was genuinely only concerned with cost, then he wouldn’t want or need to own a car at all. But he’s prepared to pay the premium to own one simply because of the freedom to travel and the convenience that it brings. But BEVs are impossibly inconvenient for the large part of the motoring population that doesn’t (and never will) have easy access to convenient charging facilities. We might get some enlightened councils installing a few token on-street charging points, or a few auto-Uber networks in some urban areas, but those will barely scratch the surface of the problem. Pure BEVs are simply inconvenient, and none of the proposals currently on the horizon will fix that.
(BTW I’m not anti-BEV, I really would like to own one because it would suit my driving pattern, but it’s simply not practical)

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #856 on: March 19, 2018, 08:28:17 AM »
but it’s simply not practical
And at the moment, I agree. But a lot will happen in the next 20 years to change that. I can envisage being able to go to a charging station and fill up in 5-10 minutes, to give you 400 miles range. Call me overly optimistic if you like, I prefer to think of myself as far-sighted.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #857 on: March 19, 2018, 08:30:43 AM »
Honda themselves seem to have a view similar to my own.


Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #858 on: March 19, 2018, 08:41:50 AM »
And this video I posted previously.


sparky Paul

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #859 on: March 19, 2018, 08:44:56 AM »
but it’s simply not practical
And at the moment, I agree. But a lot will happen in the next 20 years to change that. I can envisage being able to go to a charging station and fill up in 5-10 minutes, to give you 400 miles range. Call me overly optimistic if you like, I prefer to think of myself as far-sighted.

No, I think that's got to come.

We are already happy to spend 5 minutes, or sometimes longer, filling up with petrol and standing in a queue to pay for it, and we are already using 30 minute rapid chargers for EVs. At the moment, they encourage you to go and have a coffee, but 20 minute charge battery systems are in the pipeline, and it's inevitable that further progress will be made in this area.

There may well even be a leap of technology that solves this problem altogether.

ColinB

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #860 on: March 19, 2018, 09:47:08 AM »
Sorry guys, none of these comments really tackle the convenience issue I'm trying to get across.

15-20 minutes charging time ? Well, it's certainly better than exists at present, but is still easily 4-5 times slower, and gives less range, than an ICE. That's just 3 or 4 cars per hour per charge point, vs however many a fuel pump can cope with (10 ? 15 ?). And everyone has to be altruistic enough to move their vehicle off the charging point when it's full, which seems unlikely given the kind of behaviours you see today.

The Fully-Charged video, whilst interesting, doesn't even recognise "Lack of convenience" as an obstacle to EV take-up, never mind propose a solution.

At the moment, it all looks a bit like the cartoon ...

madasafish

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #861 on: March 19, 2018, 09:55:29 AM »
Anyone who seriously believes fossil fuels are dead for production of energy did not watch Grid Stats for the past two weeks. EVERY stand by generator connected top the grid was flat out as well the coal and nuclear stations.
 http://gridwatch.co.uk/

There was minimal solar power and wind did not work well due to high winds...  Renewables work when the conditions are right. Cold freezing winter days with no sun and high winds are when your need most power: and renewables don't work. And when people go on about renewables providing more than 50% of power in summer, it's pure propaganda for the ignorant masses.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #862 on: March 19, 2018, 10:14:46 AM »
Anyone who seriously believes fossil fuels are dead for production of energy did not watch Grid Stats for the past two weeks. EVERY stand by generator connected top the grid was flat out as well the coal and nuclear stations.
 http://gridwatch.co.uk/

There was minimal solar power and wind did not work well due to high winds...  Renewables work when the conditions are right. Cold freezing winter days with no sun and high winds are when your need most power: and renewables don't work. And when people go on about renewables providing more than 50% of power in summer, it's pure propaganda for the ignorant masses.

+1

Renewables may work in summer when we do not need the power LOL

What worries me (mainly about the mindset of the people who decided it), is that we are using valuable gas to back up renewables,  gas can be burnt to provide heat in a domestic boiler at over 90% efficiency,  when you use it to generate electricity and use that to provide heat it is no-where near as efficient,  we nearly ran out of gas in cold spell before christmas.

Everyone should know that renewables are unreliable and need 100% backup from other sources.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 10:24:12 AM by culzean »
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Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #863 on: March 19, 2018, 10:19:15 AM »
There was minimal solar power and wind did not work well due to high winds.
So how come. last week, when the Beast from the East was upon us, wind power was up there at the top most of the time? Having said that, I did not suggest fossil fuels was dead for production of energy, just won't be up there for powering automobiles.

John Ratsey

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #864 on: March 19, 2018, 10:28:50 AM »
Here's another supercapacitor technology trying to emerge from the research stage http://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/yr-2018/19-03-2018-rr-links-up-with-uk-based-superdielectrics.aspx. If that can give me at least a couple of hundred miles and no more than 10 minutes to top up then I can think electric. After all, my Austin A35 struggled to manage 200 miles between refills.

As for reliable renewable energy during the winter half of the year, we have got to either think of tidal / wave energy or doing some serious hydropower development with those who want renewable power and don't want new storage reservoirs told to get back in their box.
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culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #865 on: March 19, 2018, 10:33:05 AM »
but it’s simply not practical
And at the moment, I agree. But a lot will happen in the next 20 years to change that. I can envisage being able to go to a charging station and fill up in 5-10 minutes, to give you 400 miles range. Call me overly optimistic if you like, I prefer to think of myself as far-sighted.

No, I think that's got to come.

We are already happy to spend 5 minutes, or sometimes longer, filling up with petrol and standing in a queue to pay for it, and we are already using 30 minute rapid chargers for EVs. At the moment, they encourage you to go and have a coffee, but 20 minute charge battery systems are in the pipeline, and it's inevitable that further progress will be made in this area.

There may well even be a leap of technology that solves this problem altogether.

So you are saying there will not be a queue to use chargers - a bit of wishful thinking here I suspect.  I have already seen ICE cars parking in battery charging bays locally as well - but it is understandable as they are not used for charging,  I did notice cobwebs around the charging plugs.

We have just been on a whizz around Anglesey and North wales,  best part of 400 miles and didn't have to worry about filling up, in an EV my range anxiety would have been working overtime on those cold, wet mountainous roads.
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sparky Paul

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #866 on: March 19, 2018, 11:42:24 AM »
15-20 minutes charging time ? Well, it's certainly better than exists at present, but is still easily 4-5 times slower, and gives less range, than an ICE. That's just 3 or 4 cars per hour per charge point, vs however many a fuel pump can cope with (10 ? 15 ?).

I think everyone appreciates that 15-20 minute charging is not going to replace petrol/diesel refuelling, but that's where we are now. My point is that looking at the progress that has been made in this area, we are not so far away from the charging times required.

Furthermore, I don't think the cars per pump argument is really valid. My usual place to refill is a smallish Morrison's petrol station on a plot remote to the store, because it's convenient for me. There are 8 pumps in total, 4 of which are 'pay at pump'. If the site was levelled and replaced with a parking arrangement similar to a supermarket car park, each with it's own charging point and payment device, I would think you could fit in 20 spaces. That said, there are still major obstacles to be addressed - how you would get the amount of energy required to that point is another matter entirely.

So you are saying there will not be a queue to use chargers - a bit of wishful thinking here I suspect.

The other thing to bear in mind is that few people can currently refill their cars with petrol at home, so the demand for charging points should, in theory, be less with EVs - and significantly less outside of city areas. I certainly wouldn't need to use a public recharging point for daily use, it's very rare indeed that I travel further than the range covered by the newest generation of EVs... in fact a first generation Leaf would probably be fine for 90+% of my motoring miles.

We have just been on a whizz around Anglesey and North wales,  best part of 400 miles and didn't have to worry about filling up, in an EV my range anxiety would have been working overtime on those cold, wet mountainous roads.

Again, this is about how things are now. The EV market is still in its infancy, and until there is significant take up, infrastructure will not be developed to accommodate vehicles which do not exist.

Incidentally, a quick look on zapmap shows that even in Anglesey and North Wales, there is reasonable coverage of fast and rapid charging points, so with a bit of planning, or perhaps the app on your 'phone, nobody should need to be completely stuck.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 12:55:48 PM by sparky Paul »

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #867 on: March 19, 2018, 12:57:50 PM »
Sorry guys, none of these comments really tackle the convenience issue I'm trying to get across.

15-20 minutes charging time ? Well, it's certainly better than exists at present, but is still easily 4-5 times slower, and gives less range, than an ICE. That's just 3 or 4 cars per hour per charge point, vs however many a fuel pump can cope with (10 ? 15 ?). And everyone has to be altruistic enough to move their vehicle off the charging point when it's full, which seems unlikely given the kind of behaviours you see today.

The Fully-Charged video, whilst interesting, doesn't even recognise "Lack of convenience" as an obstacle to EV take-up, never mind propose a solution.

At the moment, it all looks a bit like the cartoon ...

I'm interested in EVs - I'd like one if the price and everything else is right but Colin makes a very good point here. There is, amongst the EV community, a tendency to make light of the convenience issues. One guy I follow on YouTube made the classic EV Evangelist comment on one of his recent videos - words to the effect of "One thing I love about EVs is not having the inconvenience of having to go to the petrol station - I just plug in at night and then I know I have enough range for the next day." Later, in the same video, he can't get a charger to work and is on the phone to the provider. In another video, he drives from Dorset to Manchester and the journey back is a bit of a nightmare. At one point his wife hisses "I'm getting seriously pissed off!"

I had an "inconvenient" trip to the petrol station this morning. Pulled up - chose pay at pump - 5 mins later I'm pulling out of the station with 396 miles to next fuel up showing. No stupid and pointless Apps - just my debit card.

This is where the "cult" accusation gains traction. It's an unwillingness, by some, to face up to the fact that EVs are often inconvenient. They must be because the chap in question has an ICE car as back up!!

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #868 on: March 19, 2018, 01:12:06 PM »
Here's another supercapacitor technology trying to emerge from the research stage http://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/yr-2018/19-03-2018-rr-links-up-with-uk-based-superdielectrics.aspx. If that can give me at least a couple of hundred miles and no more than 10 minutes to top up then I can think electric. After all, my Austin A35 struggled to manage 200 miles between refills.

As for reliable renewable energy during the winter half of the year, we have got to either think of tidal / wave energy or doing some serious hydropower development with those who want renewable power and don't want new storage reservoirs told to get back in their box.

https://www.tecategroup.com/ultracapacitors-supercapacitors/ultracapacitor-FAQ.php

Even the best ultracapacitors at the moment have energy density (Wh/kg) of around 1/10th of even a lead acid battery.  They are good for absorbing and releasing short pulses of energy but because they store an electrical charge rather than a chemical reaction their energy density is cr4p.    They may make a useful addition to a battery as a storage for regenerated power but as a power storage medium on their own they are not suitable for electric vehicles,  and I don't think the basic physics of storing an electrical charge directly is going to change magically with all the new dielectric materials being proposed.   Bear in mind that the energy storage of capacitors is made to look better in the graphs on website in link because graphs are on a logarithmic (base 10) scale.   
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culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #869 on: March 19, 2018, 01:18:15 PM »
This is where the "cult" accusation gains traction. It's an unwillingness, by some, to face up to the fact that EVs are often inconvenient. They must be because the chap in question has an ICE car as back up!!

Just like renewables need conventional fuel generation to back them up, BEV need an ICE vehicle, there is a pattern emerging here.......
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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