Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 694339 times)

guest1372

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #675 on: January 01, 2018, 05:13:32 PM »
Chinese people borrowing and spending money they don't have - that was never part of the great party plan - they were supposed to stay poor and work like slaves for the plan to work.........but nobody counted on them having western style aspirations..
That's quite inaccurate, the mid-term plan has been to create a middle class to generate local demand for goods and services and reduce reliance on exports, and to devolve wealth generation and investment to this new middle class.  If you ever work with the Chinese you'll find out it's an incredibly vibrant and positive 'can do' atmosphere, continuous improvement and the speed of design iteration is mind blowing.  The Daily Mail viewpoint of 'they just steal our IP' is just plain wrong.
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TG

John Ratsey

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #676 on: January 01, 2018, 05:13:56 PM »
Meantime, it seems sensible to encourage EV's (especially in urban areas) for one logical reason. To my knowledge, most power stations run at 'tick over' overnight when there is less demand which means they are less efficient and therefore less profitable with much of the potential transferable energy going up in smoke. Hence attempts to get folk to use storage heaters etc. However, as things stand, EV's could conceivably solve this problem in the shorter term with overnight charging which helps to spread the load over 24 hours. Better for all while we continue to rely on conventional power stations.
The propoportion of the electricity generated by these base load power stations (nuclear and traditional thermal) is steadily shrinking. As I type this it is less than 1/4 of the demand (see http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/). In fact currently wind contributes nearly as much as nuclear so there could be a power surplus during some weather conditions but it can't be relied on. Too much over-night battery charging will also cause problems for the pumped storage hydro schemes which rely on the cheap night-time electricity to fill their reservoirs.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #677 on: January 01, 2018, 05:26:25 PM »
Chinese people borrowing and spending money they don't have - that was never part of the great party plan - they were supposed to stay poor and work like slaves for the plan to work.........but nobody counted on them having western style aspirations..
That's quite inaccurate, the mid-term plan has been to create a middle class to generate local demand for goods and services and reduce reliance on exports, and to devolve wealth generation and investment to this new middle class.  If you ever work with the Chinese you'll find out it's an incredibly vibrant and positive 'can do' atmosphere, continuous improvement and the speed of design iteration is mind blowing.  The Daily Mail viewpoint of 'they just steal our IP' is just plain wrong.
--
TG

The only way to create a good strong economy is to export as much as you can (goods and services) and import as little as you can,  the UK's current policy of building houses (many materials imported) and encouraging consumers to get into debt only to spend that money on imported goods is a house of cards.  Up until now China has had record growth up to now by cheap labour and few imports,  they have been gifted technology by the west looking for a cheap, low regulation economy - our company had press tools made in China,  nowhere near quality of western press tools either in material or workmanship, but cheap and cheerful - and our engineers visited production plants in China only to be horrified by people sitting on the press beds passing components between tools by hand as the press went up and down (that would be automated in the west),  no guarding or anything like it in sight. 

With Trump in USA bringing factories back from China, the good times are over - from now on it will be a hard slog, and Chinese population is rapidly aging, not a good omen for future growth.

Many economists doubt the veracity of growth figures coming out of China, they are still basically a communist state where everything is tightly controlled - be good to see election results if they ever have any 'free and fair' elections.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 05:34:58 PM by culzean »
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MartinJG

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #678 on: January 01, 2018, 07:54:12 PM »
Chinese people borrowing and spending money they don't have - that was never part of the great party plan - they were supposed to stay poor and work like slaves for the plan to work.........but nobody counted on them having western style aspirations..
That's quite inaccurate, the mid-term plan has been to create a middle class to generate local demand for goods and services and reduce reliance on exports, and to devolve wealth generation and investment to this new middle class.  If you ever work with the Chinese you'll find out it's an incredibly vibrant and positive 'can do' atmosphere, continuous improvement and the speed of design iteration is mind blowing.  The Daily Mail viewpoint of 'they just steal our IP' is just plain wrong.
--
TG

The only way to create a good strong economy is to export as much as you can (goods and services) and import as little as you can,  the UK's current policy of building houses (many materials imported) and encouraging consumers to get into debt only to spend that money on imported goods is a house of cards.  Up until now China has had record growth up to now by cheap labour and few imports,  they have been gifted technology by the west looking for a cheap, low regulation economy - our company had press tools made in China,  nowhere near quality of western press tools either in material or workmanship, but cheap and cheerful - and our engineers visited production plants in China only to be horrified by people sitting on the press beds passing components between tools by hand as the press went up and down (that would be automated in the west),  no guarding or anything like it in sight. 

With Trump in USA bringing factories back from China, the good times are over - from now on it will be a hard slog, and Chinese population is rapidly aging, not a good omen for future growth.

Many economists doubt the veracity of growth figures coming out of China, they are still basically a communist state where everything is tightly controlled - be good to see election results if they ever have any 'free and fair' elections.

I am with you there. China is a command economy run by an oligarchy of party officials. Great if the decisions and agendas are genuine, well motivated and reasonable. Not so great if they are not. Caveat Emptor. For me, China seems quite straightforward. The old party faithful (Maoism) have merely hijacked capitalism for their own ends, and those of the people, of course, as long as they behave. Oddly enough, there are clear signs in the west of a similar policy albeit at the other end of the spectrum under the guise of crony capitalism. Either way, it matters little as the game plan is the same. In the words of the Who in their brilliant track,  Won't get fooled again,  'The parting on the left is now parting on the right...Meet the new boss, same as the old boss'. Says it all really! That reminds me, I must try out a few CD's on the Jazz, if I can work out how to use it.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 09:15:49 PM by MartinJG »

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #679 on: January 09, 2018, 06:19:49 AM »

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #680 on: January 10, 2018, 10:03:39 AM »
Just been watching a piece on "Fully Charged", from the Tokyo Motor Show, in Honda's Concept cars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi2wrqAlK5Q
Their Urban EV is to go into production for Europe, in 2019, and is supposedly going to be largely unchanged from the Concept car. I think it looks like a cross between a 205 and an early Golf.  There are only sketchy details on batteries and range, but what was interesting was the statement that from 2025 ALL Honda's car production will be EV or Hybrid.



Their sports car looks like the old Toyota 2000 GT.

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #681 on: January 10, 2018, 10:37:14 AM »
It's interesting that, until now, Honda have been keeping their powder dry on the EV scene. I suspect they want to get it dead right before going ahead. Shame there is no indication, yet, as to range.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #682 on: January 10, 2018, 11:18:08 AM »
He said 150 miles, for the Urban, was a figure that was mentioned, but if they are not starting to build them until 2019, battery technology could take another leap forward by then.

guest4871

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #683 on: January 10, 2018, 03:28:37 PM »
2019! That's less than 12 months time!

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #684 on: January 10, 2018, 04:26:49 PM »
Battery technology has been leaping forward since they started making them (scientists always trying to reduce weight and improve specific energy storage) ... what is needed is a step change in battery chemistry.

Interesting article on economics of BEV (or not).  lots of other interesting articles on the site as well.

http://energypost.eu/15698-2/


Looking at gridwatch it appears solar and wind pretty much stayed in bed today, come on guys you have had a lot of money spent on you,  the least you can do is help the reliables out.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 04:47:07 PM by culzean »
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peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #685 on: January 10, 2018, 05:12:21 PM »

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #686 on: January 10, 2018, 06:31:17 PM »
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2130231-uk-government-subsidises-coal-sector-with-356-million-a-year/

Nice to see coal working for its subsidy then.

A lot of coal subsidy is paid by EU to compensate for communities destroyed by phasing out coal and it is no longer economic to mine but still required because renewables are so unreliable (every renewable source needs 100% backup from coal or nuclear ) I love people who claim their supplier only supplies from renewable sources, but if you still had power today when wind and solar virtually absent that cannot be true and if you insist on only using renewable power your supply should have been turned off today.

The perfect test for renewables is a couple of days of cloudy windless cold weather,  all I can say is thank goodness we still have coal and nuclear, or NHS would be even more busy in winter dealing with frostbite and hypothermia.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:18:51 PM by culzean »
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sparky Paul

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #687 on: January 10, 2018, 07:45:44 PM »
A lot of coal subsidy is paid by EU to compensate for communities destroyed by phasing out coal and it is no longer economic to mine

EU money has certainly gone into ex-mining areas in the past, but coal does not receive a direct subsidy as such in the UK. Most of the coal used in the UK coal fired stations comes from outside of the EU, Columbia, USA, and Russia. If coal fired stations were being used as they were intended, i.e. as base load generation, they would still be the cheapest form of electricity generation at current commercial coal prices.

The reason coal fired generators are being overpaid, you can call it a subsidy if you like, is because they are bidding for lucrative winter back-up capacity contracts, the next of which in this February for 2022. The one nearest me missed out on 2020/21 auctions, but is bidding again for 2022. If they fail to secure a contract, I would think it would be closed by 2020 - they have a derogation on emissions until then, and to operate beyond this date they will have to spend money on new plant, or reduce output. They all have to close by 2025, regardless.

These coal power plants are now operating in a manner they were never designed to, i.e. providing short term capacity at peak times. I don't have to check gridwatch to confirm this, I can see and hear it from my kitchen window... at this time of year, they ramp up from low fire at tea time, and the air breakers disconnect from the national grid in the very early hours. I've lived here for 18 years, and it was not that long ago that this 2GW station basically ran flat out, 24/7 for 50 weeks of the year.

This new routine is destroying the boilers, I know people who work on the outages there... they are spending as little as possible and running the plant into the ground. I'm afraid coal fired generation is on it's last legs in the UK.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 08:00:47 PM by sparky Paul »

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #688 on: January 10, 2018, 08:40:50 PM »
So anyway. What do you think of the future Honda output?

MartinJG

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #689 on: January 10, 2018, 11:02:13 PM »

Reference to the Golf Mk1 lookalike. Very similar. I still think the MK1 is the best looking and designed Golf, if not car of its generation. It is no wonder they sold so many of them. Breath of fresh air, inside and out, although I believe you had to pay extra for a radio in those days.

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