Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 694639 times)

madasafish

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #660 on: December 26, 2017, 01:03:58 PM »
If Tesla made "normal" cars they would be bust > Quality is lousy..
See https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tesla+reliability

Tesla are doing their best to lose a fortune without Musk sorting out basic issues other car makers have sorted decades ago. Even Renault in their bad period 2003-8 were not as bad..

As far as Climate Change arguments are concerned, 20,000 years ago, where I live was covered in 0.5miles of ice. 15 years ago we had 1 -2 meter snowdrifts in winter outside our house. Now we get 10-20cms if we are lucky. I quite understand man having an impact... if we do get the forecast 2-30 years of Solar Dimming in my lifetime, most Climate Change enthusiasts will end up being hung.


culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #661 on: December 26, 2017, 03:23:55 PM »
If MMGW helps Earth avoid another ice age or even mini-ice age like the one that existed from about 1400 to 1850 then I will be happy.  Hands up all who want UK and northern Europe covered in ice a few hundred feet deep - a glacier ploughing across you garden - No takers ?  that does not surprise me.   The Earth has been warming since about 1850,  maybe it will start to cool down soon and that will please the MMGW disciples.  If we do start another ice age it will take more than a few wind turbines and solar panels to keep us warm and we may even have to start burning coal and oil again - shock-horror.  If our atmosphere did not contain any greenhouse gases the planet would be frozen solid and we would not be here.

As far as Tesla is concerned they should leave making cars to the experts, the cut-throat world of car making is no place for a woolly headed idealist - but like most people like him Musk can waste all the money that gullible investors and states keep throwing at him and will hide the truth until suddenly Tesla files for Chapter 11 and the money has long gone. 
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 03:44:53 PM by culzean »
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peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #662 on: December 26, 2017, 04:39:48 PM »
I don't think anybody disputes that CO2 is necessary to keep the planet from freezing. I don't think anybody disputes that CO2 levels have been higher in the past.

But the current level of man made global warming is exactly that - man made and we have never experienced levels of CO2 like they are today in the history of modern humanity.

The idea of constantly strip mining the earth and setting fire to those products like coal and oil is unsustainable. This stuff will run out. Why not prepare for a future where we don't need to do this? Fossil fuels have served us well but we need to move on.

 

MartinJG

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #663 on: December 26, 2017, 07:13:52 PM »
This stuff will run out. Why not prepare for a future where we don't need to do this? Fossil fuels have served us well but we need to move on.

Not sure it will run out actually. Basic economics suggest that we will use up the fuel that is easy to access (onshore oil for example) and cost effective and I suspect this will go on for a little longer than we might expect. Much of that oil is in the middle east.  A quote from Sheikh Yamani in 2000 puts things in perspective. "Thirty years from now there will be a huge amount of oil - and no buyers. Oil will be left in the ground. The Stone Age came to an end, not because we had a lack of stones, and the oil age will come to an end not because we have a lack of oil." They are already planning for that with the pending/part sale of Aramco, not least, I suspect, to make way for solar energy 'farms' on a grand scale.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #664 on: December 26, 2017, 08:18:06 PM »
Saudi Arabia are aggressively trying to swing their economy away from dependence on oil sales. They can see the writing on the wall.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #665 on: January 01, 2018, 10:53:39 AM »
Comment from Autocar article Nov 2017 - seems that 2018 will be an interesting year for Tesla.

Over the past 12 months, Tesla has been burning money at a rate of about $8,000 a minute (or $480,000 an hour). It is blowing through more than $1 billion a quarter. At this rate Tesla is unlikely to last another 10 months or a year. Tesla will be required to raise at least $2 billion in fresh capital by mid-2018. Is that achieveable? Who knows?

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-12/former-gm-vice-chair-trashes-tesla-musk-great-salesman-theyre-doomed-its-going-fail
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 10:59:41 AM by culzean »
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Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #666 on: January 01, 2018, 11:34:41 AM »
Elon Musk has announced the Model Y and a Pickup truck as well. Must be hoping the pre-order deposits keep the company afloat!

MartinJG

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #667 on: January 01, 2018, 12:22:43 PM »
Comment from Autocar article Nov 2017 - seems that 2018 will be an interesting year for Tesla.

Over the past 12 months, Tesla has been burning money at a rate of about $8,000 a minute (or $480,000 an hour). It is blowing through more than $1 billion a quarter. At this rate Tesla is unlikely to last another 10 months or a year. Tesla will be required to raise at least $2 billion in fresh capital by mid-2018. Is that achieveable? Who knows?

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-04-12/former-gm-vice-chair-trashes-tesla-musk-great-salesman-theyre-doomed-its-going-fail

I agree with the overall sentiment. Tesla is largely being funded by 'funny money' care of the digital printing presses of the central banks and political idealogical lackeys around the world. Some might even call it a Ponzi Scheme with a wider read across. Who mentioned Twitter/Facebook etc? What is so special about Apple other than the fact that if you like white then you pay for it. Amazon is a bit different but nevertheless, in my view, faces potential logistical problems with a business model that relies on economies of scale and wafer thin margins, so thin in fact there is a risk they might just snap. Back to Tesla. For some reason, I keep thinking of DeLorean Cars back in the bad old days. Can't think why. An example of government intervention subsidies, bureacratic bungling and flunkey economics, the chief beneficiary being Mr DeLorean himself. What a surprise. Even more surprising is the fact that history can be guaranteed to repeat itself one way or another. Let's face it, Tesla is really all about pushing the limits on blanks cheques. Not really a well worn business model. If there is an upside, it is that they have endeavoured to fast forward a technology that will one day be a reality. Question is, if it bites the dust, is there anything of value to the big boys with mass manufacturing/distribution/franchising advantages who must be watching with interest.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 12:27:08 PM by MartinJG »

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #668 on: January 01, 2018, 01:13:47 PM »
Tesla has shown people what they want. If they fall, someone (big manufacturer or otherwise), will step in to fill the need.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #669 on: January 01, 2018, 01:54:25 PM »
Yeah, Tesla has all the hallmarks of a ponzi scheme ala Enron etc. Like a man with more than one credit card who keeps switching the borrowing around to keep card companies happy, juggling all the time, or trying to keep all the plates spinning on their poles. He manages to get state and federal funding and keeps them happy with regular publicity of exiting new things coming along that rely on massive step changes in technology that just are not happening anytime soon.   

Using state funding to keep other investors happy, once one plate falls they all come crashing down - you can bet Musk has enough money spirited away to be OK when chickens come home to roost, but many people including tax payers will be left well out of pocket..
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culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #670 on: January 01, 2018, 02:00:24 PM »
Tesla has shown people what they want. If they fall, someone (big manufacturer or otherwise), will step in to fill the need.

Chinese company will buy up,  except their economy going bad too... Chinese people borrowing and spending money they don't have - that was never part of the great party plan - they were supposed to stay poor and work like slaves for the plan to work.........but nobody counted on them having western style aspirations..
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

MartinJG

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #671 on: January 01, 2018, 02:44:29 PM »
Tesla has shown people what they want. If they fall, someone (big manufacturer or otherwise), will step in to fill the need.

Chinese company will buy up,  except their economy going bad too... Chinese people borrowing and spending money they don't have - that was never part of the great party plan - they were supposed to stay poor and work like slaves for the plan to work.........but nobody counted on them having western style aspirations..

Yes. China has been the sweat shop of the world. It is now moving up a gear and will begin to dominate technological production in much the same way the Japanese developed. It seems to me that the most valuable part of Tesla could well end up being goodwill in the form of its 'brand value'. The battery technology is still the stumbling block. Meantime, it seems sensible to encourage EV's (especially in urban areas) for one logical reason. To my knowledge, most power stations run at 'tick over' overnight when there is less demand which means they are less efficient and therefore less profitable with much of the potential transferable energy going up in smoke. Hence attempts to get folk to use storage heaters etc. However, as things stand, EV's could conceivably solve this problem in the shorter term with overnight charging which helps to spread the load over 24 hours. Better for all while we continue to rely on conventional power stations.

On the Chinese, I always reckon there are two sides to absolutely everything most notably illustrated with the law of physics and encapsulated in Newton's third law ('for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction'). It seems that opposites play a fundamental part of nature. The imbalance is where many a fortune and failure accrues. The Chinese have proven themselves to be industrious and inherently 'capitalistic' in their pursuits but the flip side of the coin, their Achilles' Heal, is their addiction to gambling.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #672 on: January 01, 2018, 03:22:55 PM »
their addiction to gambling.
Not a bad thing in an entrepreneurial economy.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #673 on: January 01, 2018, 04:40:40 PM »
their addiction to gambling.
Not a bad thing in an entrepreneurial economy.

This is actually China's biggest problem, and may well upset their plans for world domination..

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/24/grey-wall-china-rudong-town-frontline-looming-ageing-crisis
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MartinJG

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #674 on: January 01, 2018, 05:04:43 PM »
their addiction to gambling.
Not a bad thing in an entrepreneurial economy.

True but contradictory nevertheless. I have always regarded it as a voluntary tax. I know of an accountant, who, by all accounts was well regarded and thoroughly professional. He had the bug and lost a lot over time. Odd that someone conversant with numbers should be so vulnerable. Knew he was wrong but just couldn't walk away. Tough for his family though.

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