Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 694695 times)

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #540 on: November 22, 2017, 09:12:35 PM »
On climate change, as a non scientist, I don't feel qualified to express a personal opinion. Let's just say I've looked at both sides of the argument and have opted for the man made climate change option.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #541 on: November 22, 2017, 09:23:51 PM »
On climate change, as a non scientist, I don't feel qualified to express a personal opinion. Let's just say I've looked at both sides of the argument and have opted for the man made climate change option.

Science is well known for changing its collective mind on a regular basis, they are adamant on one point until someone comes up with another theory. A lot of money has been made out of carbon taxes, and even more money on the table for other things like EV.  Scientists mostly chase funding, and rarely if ever dare express a view that disagrees with the funding provider.  Soon someone will discover that the suns output affects temperature on earth (it is our only real source of heat), and that suns output fluctuates, also earth rotation axis wobbles every so often and causes changes in climate.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

MartinJG

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #542 on: November 22, 2017, 09:34:47 PM »
Culzean

What about the Earth's core? Although it happened a few years ago, one might consider the core to be a sort of big storage heater. In fact,  I am sure I recall reading or hearing talk of tapping the heat by drilling down. Probably the same scientists who were looking for further funding. Or was that a Hollywood movie.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #543 on: November 22, 2017, 10:07:14 PM »
You don't have to drill that far down. Deep mining such as some coal mines, gold mines and diamond mines are deep enough to get very hot. I was once taken down Seafield Colliery, under the Firth of Forth, and it was very warm down there. The main shafts went down to 600 metres and the deepest workings were 1000 metres. It closed in 1988 leaving 150 years of coal (they reckoned 60 million tons) untouched.
The deepest mine in the world, AngloGold Ashanti’s Mponeng gold mine, located south-west of Johannesburg in South Africa, is currently the deepest mine in the world. The operating depth at Mponeng mine ranged from between 2.4km to more than 3.9km below the surface. Ongoing expansions have resulted in deeper digging at Mponeng, pushing the record to beyond the four kilometre mark. Air-conditioning equipment is used to cool the mine from 55 °C (131 °F) down to a more tolerable 28 °C (82 °F). The rock face temperature reaches 60 °C (140 °F).

MartinJG

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #544 on: November 22, 2017, 10:23:27 PM »

Yes. I watched an interesting documentary featuring the Anglogold mine you mention. The way things are going we could end up living on something resembling a Swiss Cheese.

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #545 on: November 22, 2017, 10:46:33 PM »
On climate change, as a non scientist, I don't feel qualified to express a personal opinion. Let's just say I've looked at both sides of the argument and have opted for the man made climate change option.

Science is well known for changing its collective mind on a regular basis, they are adamant on one point until someone comes up with another theory. A lot of money has been made out of carbon taxes, and even more money on the table for other things like EV.  Scientists mostly chase funding, and rarely if ever dare express a view that disagrees with the funding provider.  Soon someone will discover that the suns output affects temperature on earth (it is our only real source of heat), and that suns output fluctuates, also earth rotation axis wobbles every so often and causes changes in climate.

I think this funding argument is a zero sum game. Most climate change sceptics are financed by the fossil fuel industries.

Stephen Hawking and Brian Cox are not in the climate change business but they are pretty sure man made climate change is a fact. I'll take either of them against Nigel Lawson any day on matters of science.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #546 on: November 23, 2017, 08:38:00 AM »
Stephen Hawking and Brian Cox are not in the climate change business but they are pretty sure man made climate change is a fact. I'll take either of them against Nigel Lawson any day on matters of science.

Most of us have heard the tale of 'The Emperors New Clothes' where despite the fact the guy was as nekked as the day he was born everyone agreed his new clothes were very good indeed (because they had been told by the makers that stupid people would not be able to see the clothes) - this caries on until a child (who was not in on the plot and did not tell the Emperor what he thought he wanted to hear) blurted out 'but he hasn't go any clothes on' after which everyone had to agree with the child and the whole scam was rumbled. 

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-emperors-new-clothes.html

Co2 theory suited governments,  who could see Dollar signs from all the (easily) levied 'Carbon Taxes' which could swell their coffers without really doing much except to instruct industry to 'reduce your carbon footprint' , as time went on the Global warming / climates change (changed the name when they realised that the last 10 years after 1998 had actually seen a drop in temperature, and they wanted to cover all the bases and convince people that it was not only global warming,  but it was gonna make the climate 'unstable' and basically it could warm up or cool down and they would still appear to be right).  Out of the MMGW / CC theory grew a worldwide movement dedicated to spreading the message (and if they could make a career and governments could make loads of easy money, where was the downside).

The same 'Emperors new clothes' works in all walks of life,  some call it peer pressure, groupthink etc.  but it all boils down to the fact that no-one wants to appear out of line or stupid.  This works extremely well in the 'modern art' world, (surely the biggest scam of all)   with many documents cases of getting kids to splash paint on a canvas,  signing it with a well known artists name and seeing the 'experts' fall over themselves to see the 'meaning' in the splashes of paint, and guess what these people don't even have the honesty to be embarrassed when the fraud is pointed out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

Stephen Hawkings and Brian Cox may be clever people,  but at the end of the day humans can only work to the limit of present knowledge,  and even people like those can be influenced by peer pressure and groupthink.

The sun only has to sneeze and we catch a cold,  there has been a lot of worry lately about increasing sun activity, solar storms etc. which have the power to take out our precious computers (look out Autonomous vehicles) and electrical supplies (happened in Canada a few years ago).

Ice sheets have actually been increasing lately,  and they reckon any melting due to soot and black particulates (diesel) landing on ice surface and absorbing suns heat.

« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 11:02:05 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #547 on: November 23, 2017, 08:40:16 AM »
Culzean

What about the Earth's core? Although it happened a few years ago, one might consider the core to be a sort of big storage heater. In fact,  I am sure I recall reading or hearing talk of tapping the heat by drilling down. Probably the same scientists who were looking for further funding. Or was that a Hollywood movie.

it is called geothermal energy,  but when an area is used it has a finite life before it cools due to heat being extracted (normally by water pumped down and back up).
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

sparky Paul

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #548 on: November 23, 2017, 12:55:09 PM »
it is called geothermal energy,  but when an area is used it has a finite life before it cools due to heat being extracted (normally by water pumped down and back up).

Surely that depends where you are, and how deep you go. There must be a point where the extraction rate does not exceed the rate the heat is replenished.

Did you see the video where they were drilling for geothermal in Iceland and hit an underground lava pocket?

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #549 on: November 23, 2017, 01:39:42 PM »
In a billion years or so you will extract all the heat from the Earth's core.  ;D
http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/energy/geothermal/

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #550 on: November 23, 2017, 02:47:01 PM »
Stephen Hawking and Brian Cox are not in the climate change business but they are pretty sure man made climate change is a fact. I'll take either of them against Nigel Lawson any day on matters of science.

Most of us have heard the tale of 'The Emperors New Clothes' where despite the fact the guy was as nekked as the day he was born everyone agreed his new clothes were very good indeed (because they had been told by the makers that stupid people would not be able to see the clothes) - this caries on until a child (who was not in on the plot and did not tell the Emperor what he thought he wanted to hear) blurted out 'but he hasn't go any clothes on' after which everyone had to agree with the child and the whole scam was rumbled. 

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-emperors-new-clothes.html

Co2 theory suited governments,  who could see Dollar signs from all the (easily) levied 'Carbon Taxes' which could swell their coffers without really doing much except to instruct industry to 'reduce your carbon footprint' , as time went on the Global warming / climates change (changed the name when they realised that the last 10 years after 1998 had actually seen a drop in temperature, and they wanted to cover all the bases and convince people that it was not only global warming,  but it was gonna make the climate 'unstable' and basically it could warm up or cool down and they would still appear to be right).  Out of the MMGW / CC theory grew a worldwide movement dedicated to spreading the message (and if they could make a career and governments could make loads of easy money, where was the downside).

The same 'Emperors new clothes' works in all walks of life,  some call it peer pressure, groupthink etc.  but it all boils down to the fact that no-one wants to appear out of line or stupid.  This works extremely well in the 'modern art' world, (surely the biggest scam of all)   with many documents cases of getting kids to splash paint on a canvas,  signing it with a well known artists name and seeing the 'experts' fall over themselves to see the 'meaning' in the splashes of paint, and guess what these people don't even have the honesty to be embarrassed when the fraud is pointed out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

Stephen Hawkings and Brian Cox may be clever people,  but at the end of the day humans can only work to the limit of present knowledge,  and even people like those can be influenced by peer pressure and groupthink.

The sun only has to sneeze and we catch a cold,  there has been a lot of worry lately about increasing sun activity, solar storms etc. which have the power to take out our precious computers (look out Autonomous vehicles) and electrical supplies (happened in Canada a few years ago).

Ice sheets have actually been increasing lately,  and they reckon any melting due to soot and black particulates (diesel) landing on ice surface and absorbing suns heat.

Just to be clear - you are dismissing as conspiracy theory and rubbish the views of Brian Cox and Stephen Hawking?

The people funding climate change scepticism are very clever people. The American pollster Frank Lunz has advised the Republican Party in the USA and, more recently, the fossil fuel industry. He took his cue from the very successful lobbying of the tobacco industry who fought tooth and nail against government action once a link to cancer and other disease had been established. Lunz took the view that, in the face of convincing evidence, the best approach was to cast a bit of doubt. Get a rogue scientist to publish a paper, pick holes in the methodology and the doubt is established.

Lunz advised the fossil fuel industry himself although he now accepts the science behind climate change. Again the aim is to cast a little doubt. This will enable policy makers to soft pedal on restrictions (in fact not only do they soft pedal but the subsidies to the fossil fuel industries continue unabated).

You mention group think - all people of any persuasion could be said to suffer from group think especially climate change sceptics so I don't think that is particularly relevant here. We are at zero sum again.

But I would throw cognitive dissonance into the mix. Faced with unpalatable facts that might mean uncomfortable change people will try to find anything to enable them to continue to believe that their way of life is OK. We even have some companies like Exxon Mobile funding climate change scepticism when their own scientists told them that climate change was real!

There is little or no doubt amongst the scientific community that man made climate change through the emission of green house gases is a real threat. At some point we have to face up to the fact that the planet has finite resources and a finite capacity to absorb pollution.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #551 on: November 23, 2017, 02:57:40 PM »
I would take climate change more seriously if delegates did not hold their conferences in far flung places, stay in posh airconditioned Hotels (more energy guzzling), eat exotic imported food and get there on fossil fuel guzzling jet planes.  I may even respect them if they linked climate change to human overpopulation, but you can't tax people for how many kids they have, no leader has the means or the balls to do that.  So we come back to taxing carbon emissions which is easy-peasey and very lucrative. Nice gravy train, people can make a good living out of being a climate change confirmer, why would you not make the most of it.

Someone from climate change lobby forgot to tell the ice caps they should be melting, they have increased year on year since the low of 2012. This has cast doubt on their entire business (and computer) model, people will be asking for their carbon taxes to be paid back.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2015/05/19/updated-nasa-data-polar-ice-not-receding-after-all/#1a3edac12892
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 04:24:00 PM by culzean »
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guest5079

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #552 on: November 23, 2017, 03:23:00 PM »
Interesting comment today when the Mayor of London was on about a new clean air act for the 21st Century. Gas that saviour was named as a pollutant.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #553 on: November 23, 2017, 04:18:03 PM »
Interesting comment today when the Mayor of London was on about a new clean air act for the 21st Century. Gas that saviour was named as a pollutant.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wants to ban wood burning stoves,  I thought that they were touted not long ago the sustainable carbon neutral answer to a greenies prayers.   Do VW make wood burners,  have they fudged the carbon emissions ??
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #554 on: November 23, 2017, 04:49:53 PM »
As I said elsewhere, ninth, out of the top ten CO2 emitters in Scotland, is the Biomass Power plant here in Fife. That's a wood burning stove, isn't it?

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