Author Topic: Mk2 cvt verses mk3  (Read 5738 times)

Kenneve

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Re: Mk2 cvt verses mk3
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2018, 06:19:53 PM »
I think there seems to be one point where the computer does not know best.

If you are running at about 30 mph and you try to accelerate moderately, the engine will try it's best to respond, but is held back because the CVT won't change down and it maintains about 1600 rpm, until the road speed reaches about 40 mph, thereupon the CVT wakes up and allows the engine speed to increase, thereby generating more power.

To my mind in that situation, the engine is working harder than it needs to, at relatively low speed, which can't be good for long life.

Obviously you can floor it, to overcome that limitation, or flick a paddle to change down a notch, which is something I've now got into the habit of doing.

Skyrider

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Re: Mk2 cvt verses mk3
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2018, 07:09:09 PM »
Could this be part of the economy biased programming of the 1.3 engine and CVT?

mikebore

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Re: Mk2 cvt verses mk3
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2018, 07:14:34 PM »
Could this be part of the economy biased programming of the 1.3 engine and CVT?

Definitely.

My Mk3 CVT has more bhp and more torque than my wife's Mk1 CVT, but it doesn't feel like in normal driving.

culzean

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Re: Mk2 cvt verses mk3
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2018, 09:02:27 PM »
My Mk3 CVT has more bhp and more torque than my wife's Mk1 CVT, but it doesn't feel like in normal driving.

The Mk1 Jazz had a great engine capable of really good MPG, and with the power in the right place for relaxed driving and although later models have more power ( if you rev their nuts off ) and the suspension is better I sometimes miss the MK1 engine when driving my wifes MK2.

Fair to say Autocar does not think much of MK3,  Auto Express a bit better...... non of them like CVT

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/honda/jazz/first-drives/honda-jazz-15-i-vtec-sport-2018-uk-review

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/honda/jazz
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 09:04:09 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

andruec

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Re: Mk2 cvt verses mk3
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2018, 09:04:32 PM »
That sounds much like my car except no Atkinson. There is a "step" if you are a bit enthusiastic with the right foot. Or even a couple if you   are accelerating hard.

Does anyone know if the MK2 has a torque converter or start clutch CVT?
If you floor the accelerator there will be a kick-down - all automatics should do that. But in the early Mk3s there's also a dead-spot (feels a bit like 'turbo lag') around 2,000 rpm. If I don't prod the accelerator aggressively when leaving a roundabout very little happens. It's not noticeable in the manual version because road wheel speed and gear selection mean you always get the response you want. But with the CVT the car can decide what RPM to use and thus whether to switch the engine to Otto cycle or stay in Atkinson.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 09:08:47 PM by andruec »

andruec

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Re: Mk2 cvt verses mk3
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2018, 09:07:43 PM »
I think there seems to be one point where the computer does not know best.

If you are running at about 30 mph and you try to accelerate moderately, the engine will try it's best to respond, but is held back because the CVT won't change down and it maintains about 1600 rpm, until the road speed reaches about 40 mph, thereupon the CVT wakes up and allows the engine speed to increase, thereby generating more power.
That's not the CVT - that's the engine mode. As I say in my previous reply the CVT gives 'the car' the option of how to operate the engine and it seems to prefer staying in Atkison mode. I've developed a technique of a 'mini-kickdown'. A short but rapid downward press of the accelerator appears to convince the ECU that you want to move and it will move the engine into Otto cycle. You don't want a full kick-down but you do need to signal to the car that you want to move.

guest7675

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Re: Mk2 cvt verses mk3
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2018, 05:42:18 PM »
So in the mk3 cvt 1.5 sport there is normal drive and lever right back s mode where you can use the paddles or let it change for you, if this is so its like the daihatsu yrv turbo cvt 7 step ratios 130 i had and in sport mode paddleshift it was so quick and as good as any dsg i have had before the 0.60 was 7.8secs but mostly it was the acceleration that was good.

Skyrider

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Re: Mk2 cvt verses mk3
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2018, 10:07:18 PM »
So in the mk3 cvt 1.5 sport there is normal drive and lever right back s mode where you can use the paddles or let it change for you, if this is so its like the daihatsu yrv turbo cvt 7 step ratios 130 i had and in sport mode paddleshift it was so quick and as good as any dsg i have had before the 0.60 was 7.8secs but mostly it was the acceleration that was good.

You can use the paddles to "change gear" in Drive or Sport modes.

mikebore

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Re: Mk2 cvt verses mk3
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2018, 10:47:05 PM »
So in the mk3 cvt 1.5 sport there is normal drive and lever right back s mode where you can use the paddles or let it change for you, if this is so its like the daihatsu yrv turbo cvt 7 step ratios 130 i had and in sport mode paddleshift it was so quick and as good as any dsg i have had before the 0.60 was 7.8secs but mostly it was the acceleration that was good.

You can use the paddles to "change gear" in Drive or Sport modes.

In Sport mode the car stays in the paddle selected gear, but in normal mode it will change out of paddle selected at the slightest excuse. This is how it is on the Mk2 and Mk3 (1.3)

Is the 1.5 different in this respect?

Skyrider

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Re: Mk2 cvt verses mk3
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2018, 11:15:02 PM »
No.

guest7675

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Re: Mk2 cvt verses mk3
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2018, 10:10:47 AM »
So in sport mode do you have to use the paddles or will it change for you.

Skyrider

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Re: Mk2 cvt verses mk3
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2018, 10:31:58 AM »
You have to use the paddles to " change gear" yourself in Sport mode, otherwise it is just like Drive with higher engine revs for a more lively response to the accelerator. To get back to auto in Sport mode you hold the ""up" paddle for a few seconds.

andruec

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Re: Mk2 cvt verses mk3
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2018, 12:25:48 PM »
You have to use the paddles to " change gear" yourself in Sport mode, otherwise it is just like Drive with higher engine revs for a more lively response to the accelerator. To get back to auto in Sport mode you hold the ""up" paddle for a few seconds.
That's the same as the 1.3 in 'D' mode but in 'D' mode the 1.3 also reverts back to normality if you stop, or if you just maintain speed for several seconds. It means that the paddles are only really useful for downhill engine braking or temporarily taking control, eg for an overtake. I haven't driven my 1.3 in 'S' but I seem to recall that the Mk2 was happier to let you stay in 7-speed mode until you stopped.

guest7675

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Re: Mk2 cvt verses mk3
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2018, 01:38:26 PM »
You have to use the paddles to " change gear" yourself in Sport mode, otherwise it is just like Drive with higher engine revs for a more lively response to the accelerator. To get back to auto in Sport mode you hold the ""up" paddle for a few seconds.

Sorry sky i just asked about this in another post many thanks you have answered the question so whats it like in sport mode when you have put it into auto as you could leave it this way all the time or do you on restarting have to hold the up paddle again and how do you return it back to paddle shift.

Skyrider

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Re: Mk2 cvt verses mk3
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2018, 01:46:54 PM »
You have to use the paddles to " change gear" yourself in Sport mode, otherwise it is just like Drive with higher engine revs for a more lively response to the accelerator. To get back to auto in Sport mode you hold the ""up" paddle for a few seconds.

Sorry sky i just asked about this in another post many thanks you have answered the question so whats it like in sport mode when you have put it into auto as you could leave it this way all the time or do you on restarting have to hold the up paddle again and how do you return it back to paddle shift.

The CVT will always be in auto mode untill you use a paddle I am not sure but I think it will revert to auto if you stop and then move off. I see the paddles as a bit of a toy, they are of little use 99% of the time. The CVT is an auto transmission, that is what it does best. Leaving it in Sport permanently would just use more fuel, for most driving the CVT is more than adequate in Drive with the 1.5 engine.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 01:53:57 PM by Skyrider »

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