Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums

Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk3 2015 - 2020 => Topic started by: andruec on October 25, 2017, 06:58:27 PM

Title: The first signs of winter..
Post by: andruec on October 25, 2017, 06:58:27 PM
..my Jazz begins struggling to start. Here we go again  :(
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: Jocko on October 25, 2017, 08:09:39 PM
I take it it turns over okay, just difficult to start?
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: Skyrider on October 25, 2017, 09:21:18 PM
Have you been cold shunting? I am in Scotland and it isn't even cold here yet, not any snow even on the mountain tops and no frost where I am 100M above sea level.

https://justinpritchard.ca/honda-making-it-work-in-the-cold/
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: culzean on October 25, 2017, 10:03:30 PM
Have you been cold shunting? I am in Scotland and it isn't even cold here yet, not any snow even on the mountain tops and no frost where I am 100M above sea level.

https://justinpritchard.ca/honda-making-it-work-in-the-cold/

In the very cold UK winter 1982/3 (got down to -28C in Shropshire) my Vauxhall would not start - turned over OK but no sign of starting. I had to warm the carb with a hairdryer before it would start - it was a Vauxhall mind you, I would have expected a Honda would have started under those circumstances.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: Skyrider on October 25, 2017, 10:29:16 PM
In the 1970s I had a Datsun 160B, it was used for skiing and started in the coldest conditions I have skied in -25C, after having been parked all day. I do not forsee problems with my Jazz even if I go up to the Cairngorm or Glenshee car parks no matter how cold it is. My wife once suffered carburettor icing on a Fiat Uno returning from skiing on a particularly cold damp day.

If your Jazz can't handle our mild climate there is something wrong with it.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: Jocko on October 26, 2017, 07:06:42 AM
In the very cold UK winter 1982/3 (got down to -28C in Shropshire) my Vauxhall would not start - turned over OK but no sign of starting. I had to warm the carb with a hairdryer before it would start - it was a Vauxhall mind you, I would have expected a Honda would have started under those circumstances.
Carbs were a whole different matter from modern fuel injection. Thankfully, gone are the days when you had to juggle with the choke for the first mile or so after a cold winter start.
You used to be able to buy Ether based sprays, that you could fire into the air intake, to try and start a recalcitrant motor. Worst I ever had was a Mk1 Ford Consul.
For a Mk3 Jazz not to start I would be looking at the level and standard of servicing carried out on the vehicle. Particularly spark plugs.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: andruec on October 26, 2017, 08:36:21 AM
I take it it turns over okay, just difficult to start?
Yeah. It's an old story. It turns over just fine and even fires quickly but then it idles very slowly (at around 300 rpm) for a couple of seconds before picking up to a more appropriate 1,500rpm. Occasionally it will fail to pick the revs up and just stall out. Very occasionally it will keep turning the engine over for a couple of seconds before spluttering and giving up.

On the second attempt it fires up immediately.

What's weird is that it hardly ever does it in the evening after work. It's almost always in the morning yet I keep the car in my garage overnight. The garage has an insulated electric shutter and the car shares the garage with my gas boiler. So in the depths of winter it will struggle to start in a garage at around 10 degrees but in the evening after sitting outside in drizzle and temperatures near freezing it will start just fine. It has also never done it (I don't think) when I've been visiting friends and family and the car has been parked outside overnight.

The only theory I have so far is condensation forming when I park it up in a garage. I do have a dehumidifier so once the pattern is established this year I might try and find somewhere I can leave that with it blowing into the engine bay to see if it makes a difference.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: andruec on October 26, 2017, 08:39:57 AM
I've posted this link (https://www.s2000.com/forums/engine-tech-drivetrain/19723-cold-start-low-rpm-then-normal.html) before. What the S2000 does in that video is what my Jazz is doing. Although I'm also sure there are plenty of things that S2000 does that my Jazz can't :)

Then for all the gory details (including a few other 'victims') there's also this thread (https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=9369.0).
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: Jocko on October 26, 2017, 09:27:17 AM
Read the bit you posted, last winter, about it running okay if you turn the ignition on and leave it a few seconds before starting. This sounds to me like a fuel issue. As if it starts on what fuel is in the fuel rail but then is momentarily starved for a few seconds before the fuel pressure builds up. Switching on for a few seconds before starting allows the fuel pump to prime the rail before you call for fuel into the injectors. Perhaps the fuel pump relay is sticky. It may be worth replacing the relay or, if possible, swap it with another.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: culzean on October 26, 2017, 09:44:28 AM
Read the bit you posted, last winter, about it running okay if you turn the ignition on and leave it a few seconds before starting. This sounds to me like a fuel issue. As if it starts on what fuel is in the fuel rail but then is momentarily starved for a few seconds before the fuel pressure builds up. Switching on for a few seconds before starting allows the fuel pump to prime the rail before you call for fuel into the injectors. Perhaps the fuel pump relay is sticky. It may be worth replacing the relay or, if possible, swap it with another.

I always wait until the fuel gauge has moved to position before starting engine, nothing magic about it as it is not reading 'fuel pressure' - just seems like a reliable delay after ignition turned on to allow pump to run.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: madasafish on October 26, 2017, 10:01:42 AM
For a modern car not to start in cold weather, you have a choice of problems:
worn plugs
worn plug leads
failing battery
failure of temperature sensor so mixture is not enriched on cold start

And a decent auto electrician could solve it... not an average car mechanic..
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: andruec on October 26, 2017, 10:59:57 AM
Read the bit you posted, last winter, about it running okay if you turn the ignition on and leave it a few seconds before starting.
Yeah but later on I posted that it wasn't the solution. Also, if it was fuel system related it doesn't make sense that it miraculously works all summer long. It has to be something environmental :-/
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: Skyrider on October 26, 2017, 02:16:07 PM
Read the bit you posted, last winter, about it running okay if you turn the ignition on and leave it a few seconds before starting.
Yeah but later on I posted that it wasn't the solution. Also, if it was fuel system related it doesn't make sense that it miraculously works all summer long. It has to be something environmental :-/

Your Jazz must be faulty, the only signs of winter here are a few leaves on the ground.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: JohnAlways on October 26, 2017, 02:48:22 PM
A wild card. Your boiler is in the garage, maybe there is a lot of CO2 from the boiler upsetting things. Yeah I know only 1 chance in a Billion :) but a very strange situation. Just as an extra thought, what happens if you leave the car outside overnight?
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: Jocko on October 26, 2017, 02:52:06 PM
It must be something to do with the heating. I keep my car garaged all the time but there is no boiler in the vicinity.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: andruec on October 26, 2017, 03:00:00 PM
A wild card. Your boiler is in the garage, maybe there is a lot of CO2 from the boiler upsetting things. Yeah I know only 1 chance in a Billion :) but a very strange situation. Just as an extra thought, what happens if you leave the car outside overnight?
I left it out overnight (and unused for three days) last weekend when visiting my Dad in North Wales. It started immediately but then it's only just started playing up. Once we hit the depths of winter I can experiment a bit more.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: Skyrider on October 26, 2017, 06:28:32 PM
Where do you live to have such depths of winter. Are you in the UK?
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: andruec on October 26, 2017, 07:17:22 PM
Where do you live to have such depths of winter. Are you in the UK?
:)

Hell no. I live in the South Midlands. We haven't even had any snow for the last three or four years (yay!). Yet another reason to be puzzled about it. But it does get damp and that remains my current theory. It's a bit damp today so perhaps tomorrow morning will be 'bad'.

I am sure it's a fault but without being reliably reproducible it's hard to get my dealer to care. And truth is as I wrote in another thread 99% of the time it will start first time.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: jazzway on October 26, 2017, 08:47:24 PM
Okay, i am FAR from technical when it goes about cars, but... when i ask Dutch google about your car's problem in wet weather, then a whole list pops up, all brands. I haven't read them all, but the ones i did read are all talking about (to replace) the distributor cap, rotor and spark plug cables.

If this doesn't make sense at all, just ignore or i can delete my comment.

But it doesn't sound as a winter problem, because it is far from winter — it's just wet autumn weather. ;)
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: Jocko on October 27, 2017, 07:47:06 AM
andruec, do you run the boiler in the summer? Does the issue only arise when the boiler is switched on? Do you have a CO monitor in the garage? If so, does it record peak levels?
Where my blue sky thinking is taking me is what if there is an increased level of CO in the garage (not necessarily to dangerous levels) and this is effecting the Lambda sensors on the exhaust for the first few seconds after start up.
Where does the boiler flue go? Does wind direction affect the start up?
More questions than answers I'm afraid.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: culzean on October 27, 2017, 08:45:55 AM
I haven't read them all, but the ones i did read are all talking about (to replace) the distributor cap, rotor and spark plug cables.

If this doesn't make sense at all, just ignore or i can delete my comment.

Modern cars have coil packs fitted directly to the spark plugs (each plug has its own coil), the coil pack is triggered to make a spark at the correct time by a 12v signal from the ECU.  All the distributor and high voltage leads (25,000 volts plus) floating around under the bonnet are a thing of the past.   I can remember opening the bonnet of my Vauxhall in the early 1980's at night with the engine running and it looked like  minor electrical storm was happening under there,  I fitted new silicone spark plug leads and double insulated them where they ran close of were clipped to anything and it got rid off all the stray sparks and it ran a lot better.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: culzean on October 27, 2017, 08:50:41 AM
andruec, do you run the boiler in the summer? Does the issue only arise when the boiler is switched on? Do you have a CO monitor in the garage? If so, does it record peak levels?
Where my blue sky thinking is taking me is what if there is an increased level of CO in the garage (not necessarily to dangerous levels) and this is effecting the Lambda sensors on the exhaust for the first few seconds after start up.
Where does the boiler flue go? Does wind direction affect the start up?
More questions than answers I'm afraid.

I am of the opinion that keeping a car in a tightly sealed garage is bad for the car,  I know Andruec has a dehumidifier and that will help but normally parking a car in a garage raises the humidity and promotes corrosion, especially if the garage is warm as well.   A car port is probably the best as it keeps ice, snow and rain off the car while still allowing airflow around it.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: andruec on October 27, 2017, 08:55:31 AM
andruec, do you run the boiler in the summer?
It runs for the hot water but with me living alone and at work during the day it certainly does less work.
Quote
Where does the boiler flue go? Does wind direction affect the start up?
The flue is the other side of the wall so CO shouldn't be getting back into the garage unless there's something wrong. The boiler is serviced annually and I assume that includes a CO check.

But it's an interesting suggestion, for sure.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: Jocko on October 27, 2017, 09:14:41 AM
I am of the opinion that keeping a car in a tightly sealed garage is bad for the car,
I know they reckon keeping a car in a heated garage promotes quicker corrosion. My draughty, unheated garage barely keeps the snow out! Lucky if it is two or three degrees warmer than outside. Makes a huge difference not having frost on the car in the morning. And lack of windchill keeps the engine slightly warmer.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: madasafish on October 27, 2017, 12:15:56 PM
My wife's Yaris has always been garaged. It is immaculate underneath and the original exhaust is spotless. It is 14 years old...(but maintained)
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: guest5079 on October 27, 2017, 02:38:08 PM
Culzean rightly points out that the Jazz's electrics are very well protected BUT reading the symptoms sounds like the old classic of one cylinder not firing. The very low revs and then picking up. Does the engine sound rough when first starting and then settle down as the revs pick up? May be a shot in the dark but by bitter experience HT parts can be faulty with intermittent working. First start takes a lot.
Yes I remember the days when given a mist you could see a fantastic electrical display over the cars or motor bikes HT system. Holts used to sell a spray to waterproof your electrics.
Off at a tangent. 1963, many of you too young to know but that was a bad bad winter. I was 'courting' My now Wife lived 25 miles from my home. One night, leaving my Fiance, got my M/C to start eventually, gearbox was a pig I honestly think the oil was nearly frozen solid, good old EP80 and when I got home I was frozen to the blessed bike. My Mother next day asked what was the crash last night when you came home. Reply me, I was frozen to the bike and I couldn't get off just fell over. I hope I am never as cold as I was that night again.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: madasafish on October 27, 2017, 03:39:49 PM

Off at a tangent. 1963, many of you too young to know but that was a bad bad winter. I was 'courting' My now Wife lived 25 miles from my home. One night, leaving my Fiance, got my M/C to start eventually, gearbox was a pig I honestly think the oil was nearly frozen solid, good old EP80 and when I got home I was frozen to the blessed bike. My Mother next day asked what was the crash last night when you came home. Reply me, I was frozen to the bike and I couldn't get off just fell over. I hope I am never as cold as I was that night again.

I lived in Northern Scotland  (Banffshire). 10 foot snowdrifts outside our backdoor in 1963.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: andruec on October 27, 2017, 06:04:49 PM
Does the engine sound rough when first starting and then settle down as the revs pick up?
Yes, it does. Although at the moment it's still 'subtle' enough that you can't really tell. Give it a couple more weeks and it'll sound pretty rough for the first couple of seconds.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: VicW on October 27, 2017, 06:54:57 PM
I lived in Northern Scotland  (Banffshire). 10 foot snowdrifts outside our backdoor in 1963.

There were in Wiltshire too, we moved home on New Years Day 1963 to move into a caravan!

Vic.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: jazzway on October 27, 2017, 10:17:26 PM
I haven't read them all, but the ones i did read are all talking about (to replace) the distributor cap, rotor and spark plug cables.

If this doesn't make sense at all, just ignore or i can delete my comment.

Modern cars have coil packs fitted directly to the spark plugs (each plug has its own coil), the coil pack is triggered to make a spark at the correct time by a 12v signal from the ECU.  All the distributor and high voltage leads (25,000 volts plus) floating around under the bonnet are a thing of the past.   I can remember opening the bonnet of my Vauxhall in the early 1980's at night with the engine running and it looked like  minor electrical storm was happening under there,  I fitted new silicone spark plug leads and double insulated them where they ran close of were clipped to anything and it got rid off all the stray sparks and it ran a lot better.
Oh yes! Now i think of it, all the cars i read with the trouble and solution were older ones.
I'll let the car technical stuff in the capable hands of you and other members from now on, i promise. ;)
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: andruec on December 05, 2017, 04:17:24 PM
Interestingly so far my car hasn't got any worse. It's still starting at what I'd call 'warm idle' but it picks up to 'cold idle'  within a second. One might almost think that was just a sensible way to do things - waiting half a second for oil to get pushed around before adopting the required idle speed. Certainly there's been no stuttering or near stalling so far.

The dealer didn't say they did anything back in February so I can't see why this year it should be better. 
We've had most of the varieties of weather I'd expect down here over winter by now so apparently it's sorted. I just hope it continues this way.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: Skyrider on December 11, 2017, 06:52:26 PM
Minus six C this morning, a clear sky, frosty, and a hint of fog. My Jazz started immediately at the first turn of the key and ran normally. The steering wheel was a bit cold though!
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: andruec on December 11, 2017, 07:27:47 PM
Minus six C this morning, a clear sky, frosty, and a hint of fog. My Jazz started immediately at the first turn of the key and ran normally. The steering wheel was a bit cold though!
I haven't started mine since Friday as I was working from home today. We'll see how it starts tomorrow I suppose. Still - so far it's doing nothing particularly untoward which is nice but I'm curious as to why. I've just checked here and I was still whinging about it last February after my service so it doesn't look like anything the dealer could have done.

Tomorrow will be interesting for other reasons - I'll probably find out how this version of the Jazz performs on ice. Previous ones were a bit 'rev happy' and this one has a torque converter that apparently gives more low-end power which isn't what you want on ice :-/
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: andruec on December 12, 2017, 07:57:23 AM
And the answer is: Car started and pretty much immediately went to fast idle. No problems on the ice either. I was a bit concerned about our office drive and car park but she was absolutely fine.
Title: Re: The first signs of winter..
Post by: andruec on December 19, 2017, 07:49:34 PM
Well there's a thing. She's been starting just fine since my last post but today I popped over to my golf club at lunch for a lesson. Two miles each way including (on the way there) half a mile of dual carriageway that requires 3,000 rpm just to maintain 60/70. So a not overly long run but definitely not urban pootling around.

Get back in this evening and the car turned over for three or four seconds before firing up.

Now bearing in mind that she has hardly ever had a problem starting in the evening that's weird. I wonder how she'll start tomorrow morning..

Update: Started just fine this morning. The mystery deepens :-/