Engine Vibration on Start-Up

[Jayt43]

Yesterday it was my turn: extreme rattling and vibration at startup! Like someone was shaking a box of spanners. So much different than normal; hard to miss.
Luckily I read this post and waited a while (if not, I would have switched it off immediately); it went away after about 20 seconds. Then it was silent and without vibration as ever before.
It is a 2021 Crosstar with 38k km on the clock; serviced as Honda specified. I will keep a close eye to it and go back to the dealer if it might return.

Marco, was your start after a couple of days without driving the vehicle? Or was it very cold? Interesting that my Crossstar is similar in age to yours (just with 52k km on the clock). For me I've had it occur twice. Both occasions were after not using the vehicle for 3-4 days (I usually use it daily).

[Jayt43]

I've had the same problem with engine vibration/shaking on my 2021 Honda Crosstar, it's done it on 3 or 4 occasions on start up when the engine is cold, lasts for about 5 seconds then clears, the last time was a few days ago where it had been left standing for 2 days.
My local Honda dealership looked into the problem last year but couldn't find any issues with the engine.

Yes, exactly my car's symptoms too. I actually baby the vehicle in that it has oil changes every 10k km not 20k, so it's well looked after ;-) But the shaking is pretty intense and disconcerting. My dealer says all is fine too.

[Jazzik]

Timing chain problems are nothing to trifle with! A leaped timing chain can cause severe engine damage!

A leaped timing chain doesn't correct itself after a few seconds, am I right?

[coldstart]

A leaped timing chain doesn't correct itself after a few seconds, am I right?

No, it certainly won't!

However, a tight (especially after a "longer" stand still) tensioner might just resume its duty and thus stop the timing chain rattling after a few seconds.

[Marco1979]

It occurred after 5 days of non-use, temperature around 3oC. So sounds familiar!
I emailed my dealer and next time I keep my phone filming before starting; hope I can capture it.

[Jayt43]

It occurred after 5 days of non-use, temperature around 3oC. So sounds familiar!
I emailed my dealer and next time I keep my phone filming before starting; hope I can capture it.

Thanks Marco! Yes, there does seem to some commonality! I've also checked a few Prius forums (as they also use Atkinson cycle engines), along with other threads on ClubJazz. For me, it's most likely something like the EGR valve requiring a clean. My Crosstar does 80% short city stop/start runs (i.e school / shopping) with the remainder longer motorway journeys.

[Marco1979]

I do few short trips (around 10 km), but most of my trips are longer! Friends and family live at 80 to 120 km, so engine warms up regularly 

[coldstart]

For me, it's most likely something like the EGR valve requiring a clean.

And how would a clogged / jammed EGR valve cause the rattling noise you mentioned?

A loose timing chain due to a temporarily jammed tensioner certainly would make some noise plus alter the timing (which would explain the vibrations too). Once the tensioner moves into position and tightens the chain the problems would instantly disappear as they do in your and Marco's Jazz.

Over time the chain lengthens somewhat and the real problems kick in when the loose chain jumps on startup.
So, have a mechanic check the tensioner.

[Lincolnshire Rambler]

Obviously something is causing the issue of the occasional severe start up vibration . Are we to think the hydraulic chain tensioner could be the problem ? Given Hondas past history at making DOHC engines with VTEC technology of a high reving nature as seen in the S 2000 engine and civic type R s - it would be expected honda not only know how to engineer such things but put that engineering into production . If you see some German cars owners forums they see  lots problems with chains tensioners etc well within warranty miles . No doubt in older cars , lack of oil changes and incorrect oil grades play a part but we shouldn’t be seeing such issues on mk4 most of which are younger than the 3 or so years since it’s launch ? Has anyone exceeded 60,000 miles yet?

[Marco1979]

I was thinking: most of my 38k km were driven at speeds in between 80 and 95 kmph or 50 to 60 mph. This is hybrid mode where the engine stops, you drive 500 to 1200 meters on electricity and then the engine fires up again for 800 to 1200 meters. Also in slower traffic starts and stops occur even at shorter distances. So maybe after 38,000 km the engine started 20 to 30,000 times. This is a lot and might seriously decrease chain tensioner life!

Very curious on my dealer’s response; I will keep you posted.

[Lincolnshire Rambler]

Let’s not forget that the MMD hybrid was launched in the CRV before the jazz and that’s the same drive train except for the 2.0 litre engine and different final drive gear ratios-any such issues would be noticeable by now as more higher mileage engines will exist ?

[Nicksey]

I think it unlikely that it is anything to do with the timing belt/chain tensioner. The technology involved with this area has moved on in leaps and bounds, especially at Honda. As to Marco1979's reply regarding the petrol side having to constantly kick in, well most manufacturers have been employing the stop/go engine feature for quite a few years now, and I don't recall any timing issues there. My last 4 Renaults all stopped the engine at every light/junction/traffic jam and never suffered any ill effects. Also, when the petrol/electric interchange takes place, there is momentum involved which would put less strain on the timing chain/belt side of things too.

[5thcivic]

Surely it is common sense that the micro will spin the engine to the correct revs before the gear clicks in for direct drive at higher speeds?

[Lincolnshire Rambler]

The computer controlling the petrol engine will spin the engine to match its direct drive speed within a few milli seconds and even from not running in EV mode it won’t take long to spin up . This control is one of the big benefits of the hybrid tech -at the traffic light “Grand Prix “ you can floor it from standstill and the engine can start and spin to its redline . In a normal drive train you can’t as you have to rev through the gears ( apart from a cvt ) .  Of course it won’t hold the redline as the revs drop off if you ease off

[Marco1979]

Dealer says that several CR-V and Jazz e:hev have these symptoms. They contacted Honda about it and according to the technicians it won’t harm the engine. So no action needed.

Glad I reported it (in case it does cause any harm after all) and good to know it is also the 2.0, not only the 1.5