Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 694541 times)

MartinJG

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #510 on: November 19, 2017, 05:10:27 PM »

Seems to me it is all about energy storage. Currently, this is not commercially viable on a large scale. Crack that nut and we literally jump to a new dimension. But I suspect 'the crack' will be more the result of a slow process of cumulative R&D. Solve that one and the implications are immense as solar energy can then be converted, bottled, stored and distributed. Meanwhile, the EV early adopters are financing R&D.

The early EV adopters are being somewhat subsdised by taxpayer and electricity users as a whole.

Attached PDF is a photo I took yesterday of gridwatch dashboard,  if you hover mouse over the meter it brings up the label shown.  What it is saying is that the solar that is deployed in UK at present is making little or no difference to demand at midday (when solar is strongest and you would expect it to replace demand on other sources of electricity, at least for a few hours ) they are seeing no such so evidence - they admit the figure for solar they show on their meter is being  'generous',  and figure shown was just above 3%. 

There is an installed solar PV capacity in UK (as of May 2017) of 12,318 megawatt,  yesterday panels were supposedly generating about 1.4GW,  which as the site states  is an 'overestimate' as they are not seeing any such affect from solar on the grid to lessen demand from other sources.

Yes to subsidies, as with windpower and most forms of 'green' energy. Nice ideas but not really very viable in the UK.

On the solar energy, I was thinking more specifically about countries with abundant sunshine. So, all those useless deserts will suddenly have a commercial use, politics and big money permitting. Somewhat ironic that the oil producers in the middle east for instance could be ushering out the old and ushering in the new. However, terrorism is probably a big problem. Don't think it takes too much effort to blow up acres of solar panels and I think terrorism in its many guises is here to stay. Find a way through that minefield and the technological pitfalls and it seems to me there is huge harvesting potential but the middle east is not the only place blessed with plenty of sunshine. There are miles and miles of 'outback' in Australia which, as things stand, is largely the preserve of wildlife and a few natives and they are reasonably stable apart from when it comes to the Ashes.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 05:19:03 PM by MartinJG »

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #511 on: November 19, 2017, 07:11:01 PM »
The US also has huge areas with abundant solar energy. They are already building PV installations on the roofs of supermarkets, warehouses and malls. Walmart is self sufficient in energy, in some areas.
Capacitors do lose there charge over time (as do batteries), but this is dependant on construction and type. I have worked with huge capacitors that kept their charge as long as batteries. And as for the amount of energy they can store, that can be enormous. Again it just depends on size how they are configured. Some hypermilers are already using super capacitors instead of batteries.
And we are talking about entire new technology with Graphene super capacitors, so who knows how good they may end up.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #512 on: November 19, 2017, 07:16:59 PM »
bit of info about difference between capacitors and batteries.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/whats_the_role_of_the_supercapacitor
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MartinJG

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #513 on: November 19, 2017, 07:59:49 PM »

Yes, it occurred to me after I posted that the USA is where it is all happening at the moment and they are certainly not short of sunshine. Probably a dash of contrarian thinking. The principle of energy storage is a given but is existing battery technology barking up the wrong tree? No problems with the electric motor but it seems there are considerable physical hurdles to clear and I wonder whether there will be a rethink on how to actually store/generate/access/convert energy into electricity.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #514 on: November 19, 2017, 08:25:03 PM »
bit of info about difference between capacitors and batteries.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/whats_the_role_of_the_supercapacitor

Interesting article. It mentions Graphene Electrodes being 15 years away, but the original article was published 7 years ago so perhaps Fischer's patent will see their forecast correct.

Regarding storage, battery technology is almost 370 years old (although it may be even older, as an urn, uncovered in Baghdad, may have been an early battery. Discovered in the 1930s, the urn dated back to sometime between 250 B.C. and A.D. 250. The artefact contained a copper pipe with an iron rod in its centre - which could have served as the battery's electrodes - and had an asphalt cork at the top. Still inside the urn was the residue of an acidic liquid that could possibly have provided the electrolyte element). It is about time science came up with a better way of storing electricity!

And talking of subsidies. I see the oil industry have their hands out hoping for tax changes in this week's budget, to help them out.

MartinJG

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #515 on: November 19, 2017, 10:34:47 PM »

Well there are a lot of high profile vested interests in oil, not least the dollar. Not everyone has an interest in progress.

guest5079

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #516 on: November 20, 2017, 08:57:56 AM »
This am on TV was an item from our local station. A Farmer in Cornwall who is well into solar energy is working on electricity storage.  The storage units appeared to be in two ship containers ( may be more but typical Farmer being cagey)  The storage medium? is Vanadium suspended in a liquid. The electrons attach to the Vanadium and when used the Vanadium is reabsorbed into the liquid.
Sorry guys I am not clever with technology so might have missed the point and could well have merely repeated that already posted.
I looked up Vanadium and it appears NOT to be a rare element but is already used in hardening steel.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #517 on: November 20, 2017, 10:27:59 AM »
It is a Vanadium redox battery. From what Wiki says, it is okay if you have the space for it.
The thing about this kind of energy storage is you can charge it from overnight, low cost, off peak electricity. Then use it during the day when the prices go up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium_redox_battery

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #518 on: November 20, 2017, 01:13:13 PM »
Bad news for Tesla on their bid to make cheaper EV for mass market ( model 3 ) on top of even more production delays  -  soon  their cars will be losing taxpayer funded subsidies (when they hit 200,000 milestone, if ever), because this is a fixed subsidy not a % of car value its reduction will have a big effect on a more price sensitive car like model 3 than on their $100K models.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/tesla-model-3-production-delay-issue#gs.OV8NMqk

A reality check on how cheap renewable energy can get, when you start adding storage the costs rise and make it less competitive.  India and China are building nuclear power stations at a rapid pace to ensure they have power they need when they need it.  In Germany their production industry segment, which is the basis of their strong economy is fighting the phasing out of coal stations 'because they cannot rely on fickle renewables for their 24/7 needs' and don't want power shortages disrupting their production.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/the-truth-about-renewables-and-storage-in-lazards-cost-analysis#gs.2O=5c_4
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guest1372

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #519 on: November 20, 2017, 01:28:27 PM »
Bad news for Tesla....  soon  their cars will be losing taxpayer funded subsidies
Do you mean the federal development funding made available to all the US auto makers and also taken up by the likes of Ford, GM etc.?
--
TG

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #520 on: November 20, 2017, 02:08:21 PM »
Do you mean the federal development funding made available to all the US auto makers and also taken up by the likes of Ford, GM etc.?
That's certainly what the link alludes to.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #521 on: November 20, 2017, 03:26:21 PM »
Bad news for Tesla....  soon  their cars will be losing taxpayer funded subsidies
Do you mean the federal development funding made available to all the US auto makers and also taken up by the likes of Ford, GM etc.?
--
TG

Yes it applies to all EV makers, but only up to the point they sell 200,000 vehicles then it reduces. Will affect all makers, but most are more efficient at producing cars than Tesla,  and if it comes to a price war..................
« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 03:30:45 PM by culzean »
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sparky Paul

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #522 on: November 21, 2017, 10:22:33 AM »
I see the oil industry have their hands out hoping for tax changes in this week's budget, to help them out.

Notice the petrol & diesel prices creeping up in the week of so before the budget? Happens every year, without fail.

madasafish

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #523 on: November 21, 2017, 01:04:11 PM »
I see the oil industry have their hands out hoping for tax changes in this week's budget, to help them out.

Notice the petrol & diesel prices creeping up in the week of so before the budget? Happens every year, without fail.

Err NO.

Crude oil prices spiked to $64 as Venezuela is reducing production and Saudi want prices to rise (thus reversing policy of pump and pump)..

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #524 on: November 21, 2017, 01:49:35 PM »
Petrol prices regularly go up before the budget. It is just that this year part of that increase is justified.

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