Any experience of Michelin Cross Climate tyres?

[culzean]

What culzean is saying is that with the Honda system you can switch between sets of wheels and tyres, summer and winter, as he does. With the other system you need a set of sensors in each set of wheels, making it a bit more expensive.

Can't quite reconcile that with what he said:

"Personally I would only think of cross climate type tyres if my car had the pressure sensors in the wheels"

For people who don't change wheels in winter there is no reason against cross-climate tyres with the Honda system... or is there?

As Jocko says it gets expensive if you have to buy pressure sensors to fit to extra wheels , and another expense when they have to be reprogrammed into system twice every year when wheels get changed, and again when battery fails, and if you have a spare with no sensor you will get a continual warning if you are using the spare.  So for that reason extra wheels can get pretty pricey, but with ABS based system there is no extra expense except the original cost of steel rims ( which are cheaper than pressure sensors anyway).

Nothing against cross climate but as I said   I would only consider them if my car was fitted with pressure sensors ( because of extra expenses listed above). I find having another set of steel wheels with winter tyres better because they save your alloys from winter salt, they are better on snow than cross climate, and summer tyres better in summer conditions, and while you are wearing winter tyres out you are not wearing your summer tyres out.

Don't think I ever suggested that Honda TPMS could not handle cross climate, it does not know what tyre is fitted and as far as i know every tyre except a solid one will go flat on the bottom as the pressure drops.

[mikebore]

What culzean is saying is that with the Honda system you can switch between sets of wheels and tyres, summer and winter, as he does. With the other system you need a set of sensors in each set of wheels, making it a bit more expensive.

Can't quite reconcile that with what he said:

"Personally I would only think of cross climate type tyres if my car had the pressure sensors in the wheels"

For people who don't change wheels in winter there is no reason against cross-climate tyres with the Honda system... or is there?

As Jocko says it gets expensive if you have to buy pressure sensors to fit to extra wheels , and another expense when they have to be reprogrammed into system twice every year when wheels get changed, and again when battery fails, and if you have a spare with no sensor you will get a continual warning if you are using the spare.  So for that reason extra wheels can get pretty pricey, but with ABS based system there is no extra expense except the original cost of steel rims ( which are cheaper than pressure sensors anyway).

Nothing against cross climate but as I said   I would only consider them if my car was fitted with pressure sensors ( because of extra expenses listed above). I find having another set of steel wheels with winter tyres better because they save your alloys from winter salt, they are better on snow than cross climate, and summer tyres better in summer conditions, and while you are wearing winter tyres out you are not wearing your summer tyres out.

Don't think I ever suggested that Honda TPMS could not handle cross climate, it does not know what tyre is fitted and as far as i know every tyre except a solid one will go flat on the bottom as the pressure drops.

Yes indeed which is why I was surprised that you said what you did. I read too much into your words.

[Rory]

I have cross climates plus fitted to a 2012 jazz. When new the steering felt odd, but after a 1000 or so miles , ok. The plus points. Potholes are absorbed better. Wet braking is superb. Road holding very good. Not noticed any change in MPG. The big minus is that the tyres are only available with a load rating of 88 on the 15 inch rims. The standard tyres have a load rating of 84. The result is a tyre designed for a much heavier car is not as compliant, and you feel every imperfection in road surfaces. But come any snow, I think these tyres will get me home, compared to summer tyres. I see that Continental now make an all season tyre for the 15 inch jazz rims with the correct load rating of 84 now, so maybe a better bet for ride quality. Who knows !

Apparently Michelin uses exactly the same construction for all speed ratings and locad indexes - it's their 'geobox' concept.  Whether that means everyone gets harsher ride, I'm not sure - but I put Cross Climates on daughters Golf and ride seemed absolutely fine, although it had Bridgestones on before and they're noted for having stiff sidewalls.  Bear in  mind XL tyres only carry heavier load at very high pressures - for any normal pressure they're actually slightly lower load than non-XL tyres.

I didn't monitor tyre wear on the Golf in great detail - they were on a couple of years so did 20K and still looked fine when the car was written off by an Argos van.

On our Jazzs we run the older one year round with 15" wheels and full winter Michelin Alpins, and the other with 16" Michelin Energy.  Wear rate on the Winters is very similar to the summer.

I will say we drove the older one through the severe (by UK standards) winters of 2009/10 and 10/11 on its original 16" Dunlop SP2030's and it never gave a moments concern.  But they are noted for being very soft tyres and they didn't last long.   

I only ever drove the Jazz briefly on winters in snow once - I very nearly came a cropper by the lack of lateral grip on a tight bend.  Wife now has a Tiguan with 4Motion and full winter tyres and I drove that across country on a snowy day in January - it would start and stop almost as normal, so it would be really easy to get carried away.  Again, cornering required care that seemed out of proportion with the tyres other capabilities.

[Jocko]

I have only ever used summer tyres (or as they were known back in the day - "tyres"), and have never had any problems in snow. I have been stuck when the snow was up past the number plate but in normal snow, which is not that common here now, I get through. I believe driving technique is more important than the tyres fitted.
Worst snow I have experienced recently was the Beast from the East as the attached video shows.

[mikebore]

I have cross climates plus fitted to a 2012 jazz. When new the steering felt odd, but after a 1000 or so miles , ok. The plus points. Potholes are absorbed better. Wet braking is superb. Road holding very good. Not noticed any change in MPG. The big minus is that the tyres are only available with a load rating of 88 on the 15 inch rims. The standard tyres have a load rating of 84. The result is a tyre designed for a much heavier car is not as compliant, and you feel every imperfection in road surfaces. But come any snow, I think these tyres will get me home, compared to summer tyres. I see that Continental now make an all season tyre for the 15 inch jazz rims with the correct load rating of 84 now, so maybe a better bet for ride quality. Who knows !

Thanks very much for this. Lots of useful comments in the thread, but think you are the only one actually using them on a Jazz. Two big (for me) problems you mention:

Steering: I am very happy with my Mk3 steering. I really dislike the steering on my wife’s Mk1, and tolerated the better-but-not-good steering on my Mk2. I would hate to do anything which had an adverse effect on it on my Mk3. So after 1000 miles had you just got used the oddness or had it improved? How was it odd?

More sensitive to bumps on road: this would be a negative for me. I had some Dunlop Fast Response tyres my Mk2 which had the same effect.

Thanks for any comment.

[peteo48]

Love the (or as they were know back in the day - "tyres"). When did we start calling "tyres" summer tyres?

It's an issue that gets people quite wound up. About 10 years ago (IIRC) Which said that, for most people in the UK, winter tyres were a waste of time - it caused quite a furore at the time with people saying that Which were advocating a dangerous course of action. They later modified their advice saying that, in some areas and in some conditions, winter tyres were justified.

For me they would be a monumental waste of money living in a flat area that rarely gets extremes of weather. Where we used to live, on the edge of the Peak District, I might well have considered them if I was still working.

[culzean]

Love the (or as they were know back in the day - "tyres"). When did we start calling "tyres" summer tyres?

I guess since all season and winter tyres became widespread.  Like the difference between off-road and road tyres.  If you go into a tyre place and just ask for 'tyres' I guess they would fit summers though, as they are most common, but if you went in middle of winter they may ask if you want winter or summer tyres.

There are plenty of hills where I live, just to get off our estate used to be a battle as it is a steep bendy road with no run-up.  The jazz with summer tyres still did better than a lot of cars, my wife used to drive past quite a few stuck cars providing snow not too deep or icy. Now with Nokian winters it is a doddle, no more problem than driving on a wet road.  You need to think about braking as well, even if you can get moving on summers in snow, the stopping distances can be horrendous, and going down a hill you may not stop at all.........

[Hobo]

When did we start calling "tyres" summer tyres?

Where we used to live, on the edge of the Peak District, I might well have considered them if I was still working.

Quite agree I can never understand why some people feel the need to keep and change a full set of tyres to drive in  winter conditions in the UK.

Years ago before the advent of summer and winter tyres I used to live and drive in the Lake District and even in the worst winter conditions it was very rare that driving became impossible and I never had any problems, maybe some people need to take lessons in how to drive in winter conditions.

[culzean]

Years ago before the advent of summer and winter tyres I used to live and drive in the Lake District and even in the worst winter conditions it was very rare that driving became impossible and I never had any problems, maybe some people need to take lessons in how to drive in winter conditions.

And before we had rubber tyres we used to have wooden or steel ones.............

My main reason for having steel wheels in winter is to save my alloys, got fed up of paying anything up to £70 a wheel to get them refurbished ( still got a set of Jazz Si 16" diamond cut alloys in garage with white worm corrosion under clear coat going under the paint as well - bought new 15" after market alloys after being quoted £100 a wheel for refurbishment of diamond cut after less than 4 years use, mainly down to winter salt - steel rims with Nokian winters cost £60 each and have  lasted 4 winters so far and still quite a bit of tread). Get to use one of the 'out of season' tyres as a full size spare as well.

I used to drive in winter with rear wheel drive cars and a paving slab in the boot, compared to that a front drive car is loads better,  but still does not help you stop any quicker..... like winter tyres do.

[Jocko]

Since the Beast from the East, we have had no lying snow, here in Kirkcaldy. This past winter I barely saw a flake of snow, never mind drove in it. So for me, winter tyres are not a choice I would make.

[Hobo]

but still does not help you stop any quicker..... like winter tyres do.

Oh winter tyres make you stop quicker, really and I always thought it was how hard I braked that made me stop quicker not the tyres on my car.

[ColinS]

but still does not help you stop any quicker..... like winter tyres do.

Oh winter tyres make you stop quicker, really and I always thought it was how hard I braked that made me stop quicker not the tyres on my car.

No you got that wrong.  It's the rear bumper on the car in front that does it.

[culzean]

Worth bearing in mind that the M and S rating ( mud and snow ) makes the tyres better on slippery temporary car parks set up in fields at various shows, hillclimbs, motoX etc. I have actually swapped from summers to winters a couple of times during 'summer' when I knew the carpark would be wet and did not regret it, watching other cars was an education - even my brother in his Nissan 4x4 with limited slip diffs struggled on grassy mud, just like 4X4 struggle on snow when they have summer tyres fitted, much to the drivers surprise.....and disappointment when a Jazz zooms past him.

Also better if you can stop quicker than car in front, if car behind you doesn't stop as quick as you do they are to blame if they hit rear of your vehicle.

[sparky Paul]

One other thing to bear in mind with winter tyres is that although insurance companies have agreed to no longer charge any additional premium, there are still a small number of insurers that require you to declare them as a modification.

https://www.abi.org.uk/globalassets/sitecore/files/documents/publications/public/migrated/motor/abi-guide-to-winter-tyres-the-motor-insurance-commitment.pdf

[culzean]

One other thing to bear in mind with winter tyres is that although insurance companies have agreed to no longer charge any additional premium, there are still a small number of insurers that require you to declare them as a modification.

https://www.abi.org.uk/globalassets/sitecore/files/documents/publications/public/migrated/motor/abi-guide-to-winter-tyres-the-motor-insurance-commitment.pdf

Looking at that list only southern rock need you to tell them anything, the main proviso seems to be that they are of a standard size for the vehicle, not more expensive than normal tyres ( in fact winter tyres are often cheaper and certainly no more expensive than a lot of tyres,  and steel rims are cheap as chips ) and in a roadworthy condition.  Jazz Mk2 is homologated for both 185/55R16 and 175/65R15 sizes so providing you don't go mad and fit ultra low profile or real tall and skinny tyres there should not be a problem.  I doubt your insurance company would be too dismayed if you stopped more quickly than the car in front and did not hit them but instead the car behind bumped you as they can blame that driver.  Same if you stay on the road instead of skidding off into a ditch or wall or parked vehicle.