Author Topic: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines  (Read 10209 times)

culzean

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Re: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2019, 12:09:20 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_reluctance_motor

The switched reluctance motor is a cross between a stepper motor and a normal AC induction motor.  The motor can run on DC by clever electronics creating a rotating magnetic field in the stator that the rotor follows,  it means no brushes to wear out because no power needs to be supplied to the rotating parts.  These motors have been used in such diverse things as washing machines and robots for quite a while now,  as they are capable of high torque and a large speed range.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

jazzaro

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Re: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2019, 12:35:54 PM »
Years ago, talking with an old friend working in Ferrari as production engineer, we discussed about F1 and technology. He said that F1 and production are deeply different, because technical purposes are different and only limited fields can match each other. Production car must comply a huge quantity of legal rules, they don't care about confort at all, they do not have to be easy to use and have to last hundred of thousand of kilometers without problems, while F1 engines must last some hundred of chilometers. A production gearbox must be comfortable, reliable and silent, a F1 gearbox must be fast and easy to change gears.. F1 Frames and suspensions must be light and easily tunable, the same parts in production cars must be robust... Brakes, think to brake pads and rotors and what they have to do during their lifecycle... Look at this:
https://www.hondarandd.jp/point.php?pid=1285&lang=en
technical paper about pre-ignition chamber for petrol engines, all F1 engines has it while  no series engine, Otto or Atkinson or Miller, works with this: as you can see, the aim of this study is increasing thermal efficiency but complying emission targets, noise reduction and mileage. And the same idea can be replied for hybrid systems: in F1 you look for power and very rapid charge and , in a Yaris the purpose is good mileage, comfort and reliability. He said that there are more similarities between F1 and aerospace, than between F1 and car series production.
So, even if manufacturers spend a lot of money in F1, the main reason is improving the brand image.
See how F1 engines have to be started...
https://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/f1-technique-starting-a-formula-1-engine-part-1?artid=157706
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 12:53:55 PM by jazzaro »

csp

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Re: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2019, 04:43:52 PM »
If the list price of a basic Jazz were to be as high as £27,000 then it would be priced out of the market by Toyota and even the current Civic SE petrol costs under £19500. From memory the previous Jazz Hybrid was only priced at about £2000 to £3000 more than a manual petrol Jazz.

Basic Yaris
18,940.00 standard petrol
16,370.00 hybrid
2,570.00  extra for hybrid

Basic Carolla
25,830.00 standard petrol
23,380.00 hybrid
2,450.00 extra for hybrid
 
Having bought 3 Jazz cars from new, I would like to replace my Jazz possibly next year, but there is no way I would consider paying £27,000 for my next car. If the price of the Jazz is set that high then I suspect that Honda will be risking the loss of a large number of loyal Jazz customers in the Super Min / B sector.

peteo48

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Re: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2019, 04:54:25 PM »
£27k would be massively over the top. It would make it as expensive if not more expensive than some of the cheaper EVs like the Zoe and the MG EV. I can't believe they would sell a single unit at that price. You would have to be clinically insane to pay that much when you get a Toyota Yaris Hybrid for nearly £10k less.

culzean

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Re: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2019, 05:06:44 PM »
Disc brakes, DSG gearboxes, multi-link suspension, safety cages ( yes your car has one- it is just well hidden ), aerodynamics, improved tyres, limited slip differentials, better lubricating oils, etc. etc. etc. have all come down from motorsport.  To say that technical improvements in racing do not filter down to your road car is just plain wrong - some of the things are too expensive to be able to be fitted to production cars straight away, but often cheaper versions are developed, or cost comes down enough to include them.  The things that last hours in a highly stressed  race engine will last 100,000's of miles in your car engine due to better materials developed from motorsports experience.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2019, 05:18:52 PM »
Motor sport has driven technology, that soon finds its way into production vehicles. Things that start off in f1, rallying and saloon car racing all improve the breed.

jazzaro

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Re: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2019, 10:45:49 PM »
Disc brakes, DSG gearboxes, multi-link suspension, safety cages ( yes your car has one- it is just well hidden ), aerodynamics, improved tyres, limited slip differentials, better lubricating oils, etc. etc. etc. have all come down from motorsport.  To say that technical improvements in racing do not filter down to your road car is just plain wrong - some of the things are too expensive to be able to be fitted to production cars straight away, but often cheaper versions are developed, or cost comes down enough to include them.  The things that last hours in a highly stressed  race engine will last 100,000's of miles in your car engine due to better materials developed from motorsports experience.
I agree with you if you say that motorsport in general can transfer some new technologies to series production, but not if we talk about F1. Rallies, Endurance, DTM, Superbike in  many cases are laboratories, and experience can be used in big series production because purposes can be similar, but F1 is too different in all its parts to be useful, words from a Ferrari engineer, not from a farmer.
It's similar to say that experience in container ship diesel engines can be used for modern automotive common rail diesel... Ok, they both are diesel, they both have pistons, they both have injectors... but it's brightly clear that we have two deeply different kind of engines, with different purposes and different techniques to be used.

Jocko

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Re: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2019, 11:38:44 PM »
Disc brakes were used on f1 cars after unsuccessfully being tried for production cars. The experience  gained in racing lead to the successful development of disc brakes as we know them today. Many other f1 technologies have also made there way into the cars we drive today, as will some of the current esoteric systems on today's f1 cars.

jazzaro

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Re: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2019, 02:20:52 PM »
Disk brakes, radial tires and turbo blades advanced materials are the only techniques transferred from F1 to standard production, fields where racing F1 experience has been useful immediately or some years after in cars for common people. Pratically all other F1 techniques are not useful, too much different even if names and position in the car are similar. But press offices does not say this...
Some years ago I remember a very funny thing... The official website of Alfa Romeo, in the Alfa147 page, writed that "suspension are derived from F1", this because the front suspension was not a McPherson geometry but a 4 lever scheme. Advertisement, press documents and hidden influencers in blog and forums were pushing hardly this idea, trying to convince potential buyers that 4 levers were the same of the Schumacher Ferrari F1. But obviously  this was not true... A F1 has 4 levers, drawing a parallelogram where lower arms have more or less the same lenghth of the upper ones, while the 147 had an 3 points upper short arm, and a long 3 points L-shape lower arm. 147 suspension has a long travel, F1 very short, 147 has soft silent blocks to filter road roughness, F1 has metal uniballs to be more rigid as possible... 147 used this scheme to have a good  handling and confort performances in braking and turning (the low rigidity chassis of the Tipo family could not give both with a standard McPherson..), F1 use that scheme for a good wheel position, an easy camber and caster regulation and for aerodinamics...  Everyone not stopping at the leaflet can understand that suspensions are deeply different.
Same for variable lenghth intake ducts: F1 naturally aspirated engines used continuosly valiable lenght trumpets, while series producion sometimes was using a two way intake duct, with a butterfly valve used to choose the short or the long path. Same name but very different device... Same for combustion study, even if both F1 and series can have turbocharged engines, F1 engines have high bores and short strokes, this to gain  high rpms (best configuration to reduce mechanical stress at high rpms) and keep a good flame propagation, not easy at F1 rpms... In a series engine, rpms are 3 times lower, and combustion path does not be quick (exhaust valve open always after the end of combustion, not always true for f1 at 16000rpm..) but has to be soft and constant, if possible far from the cylinder walls. So also here f1 experience cannot be used for series.
We could also talk about safety cages, and how differently they are designed and how differently they work... Things are different if we compare other motorsport techniques with series, such as rally design, here we really have a big technology transfer..
So don't listen to press agencies...

Jocko

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Re: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2019, 03:35:35 PM »
Radial ply tyres did not come from f1. They were developed by Citroen, in the 1940's but had been designed and patented long before that.
I am not saying that technologies are lifted straight from f1 for road cars, but the design and concepts are transferred, albeit in a modified manner for, the cars we use today.
Carbon fibre chassis came from f1 (BMW i3), rear view mirrors  beside the driver originated from f1 (prior to that cars had a small mirror on the wing - if you were lucky), buttons on the steering wheel were an f1 idea (now most cars have them (even of just for radio and cruise control), and active suspension came from f1.
High revving engines also came from f1. Back in the 60's engines red lined at 5,500 rpm or there about. Now many production engines will rev to 8,700 (Audi R8) and even 9,500 (Lexus LFA). The technology may have come from rally and saloon car racing, but they got it from f1.

culzean

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Re: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2019, 05:42:24 PM »

I am not saying that technologies are lifted straight from f1 for road cars, but the design and concepts are transferred, albeit in a modified manner for, the cars we use today.


100%, 

Technology gets transferred all the time in engineering something may have been developed for one thing but can be used for other things,  and improvements in materials filter down. There have been over-square production engines in road cars including the Honda S2000, which redlined at 9K many years ago.  and was as reliable as a Swiss watch.  My First Civic had double unequal length wishbone suspension. 
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

jazzaro

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Re: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2019, 11:09:14 AM »
Ok.
I hope you'll forgive me if I trust a friend Ferrari engineer more than bloggers.
Let's go back to Jazz Mk4

Jocko

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Re: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2019, 11:14:32 AM »
Whatever.

culzean

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Re: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2019, 03:38:59 PM »
Whatever.

https://www.eurosport.com/formula-1/how-formula-one-technology-improves-your-road-car_sto4975756/story.shtml

Shhhh..... don't tell Jazzaro,  a guy from Ferrari is in article saying how they transfer engineers between their car plants and F1 to 'cross pollinate'  and improve both divisions,  Mercedes do the same.....
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

jazzaro

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Re: Mk4 Press Release with videos and more pictures than in magazines
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2019, 05:11:16 PM »
Whatever.

https://www.eurosport.com/formula-1/how-formula-one-technology-improves-your-road-car_sto4975756/story.shtml

Shhhh..... don't tell Jazzaro,  a guy from Ferrari is in article saying how they transfer engineers between their car plants and F1 to 'cross pollinate'  and improve both divisions,  Mercedes do the same.....
I live in Bologna, Ducati is 2km far from my flat,  Maranello is 30km far from here, our university send several students and graduates to this two factories, so it's quite common to get in contact with people working in their race divisions or for some close suppliers... In Bologna there are several cars with german number plate starting from IN.... Vw or Audi cars coming from Ingolstadt, owned by VAG and given to people working for Lamborghini or Ducati. I think it's similar to live in Brackley.
I changed my ideas about matters we're chatting after a beer with this friend, hearing infos that are usually unavaiable for press and common people, infos that I would never read from a newspaper citing Mr Binotto or Mr. Wolff. Or maybe pressmen know, but they also know that they cannot publish if they want to have further interviews with these  big bosses. 
So I can only write my opinions and how I made them, not pretending you cange yours and not teasing if you think different; in Italy we use to say that "opinions are like balls, everybody has it's own"..  So everybody can keep it's ideas, we're only chatting about cars.

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