Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Honda Jazz Forums => Honda Jazz Mk4 2020 - => Topic started by: csp on October 23, 2019, 08:48:25 AM
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Honda Europe Press Release for the Mk4 Jazz
https://hondanews.eu/eu/en/cars/media/pressreleases/193623/all-new-jazz-leads-electrification-charge-for-honda?utm_campaign=Syndicated_193623&utm_medium=RSS_All%20Press%20Releases&utm_source=hondanews.eu
The Crosstar front looks better than the standard Jazz
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The Crosstar front looks better than the standard Jazz
I think that is because it looks like the Jazz we are used to.
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It will be interesting to learn in due course how the fuel efficiency and emissions compare with the current model.
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Lets have a bet on the UK retail £27k min
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Lets have a bet on the UK retail £27k min
Perhaps that's why they are forecasting a slight dip in Jazz sales on launch?
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Lets have a bet on the UK retail £27k min
I cannot see it being dearer than the Honda e.
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It's interesting to think about the implications of the things Honda are not saying in the press release. They are trumpeting that all future Jazz will be hybrid, but not pointing out that this means they will all be automatics of some sort (presumably CVTs). What's more they will be rolling out that technology across the rest of their model range over the next few years. So not only will there be no such thing as a manual box Jazz soon, there'll also be no such thing as a manual Honda.
Some may say "about time" (where are you, Andruec !) but I quite like a manual gearchange (not least because it's cheaper) and it would be nice to have that choice.
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(https://www.honda.co.uk/content/dam/hakuhodo/features-images-crv-hybrid/h-i-mmd.jpg)
The Honda hybrids will use intelligent Multi-Mode Drive (i-MMD), instead of CVT transmission. Once we go all electric we won't need gearboxes anyway. They are "old world" technology!
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The Honda hybrids will use intelligent Multi-Mode Drive (i-MMD), instead of CVT transmission. Once we go all electric we won't need gearboxes anyway. They are "old world" technology!
The terminology isn’t the point here: whatever it’s called and however it works, it’ll look like an auto to the driver because he won’t have a gear stick. So my point stands, that the days of the manual gearchange are numbered. Even if you prefer to have a manual box, you can’t.
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I didn't dispute it being an automatic, just not a CVT. I tried the CVT and hated it, but I have loved the non CVT autos I have owned for 25 years before the Jazz.
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My father, 72 years, just bought a new car; we visited together some dealers, and his request was "manual gearbox!!!" I've tried to suggest an automatic transmission, cvt, electric or epiciclic I don't care, but I couldn't move him from 3, the number of pedals. So I understand some posts...
I agree with colin, I also think that manual gearbox will slowly disappear; this is not a problem form me, it's not so important for me to have 3 pedals, the two on the right are the most important.. Simply, automatic transmissions are easier to use, are more confortable, are faster in common usage, mileage and reliability are no more a problem; so I understand why customers in europe are moving to manual gearbox to automatic units...
Just a mechanic tip: people use to call CVT some automatic transmission with a belt and one or two variable pulleys. To be precise, a belt and a pulley is only one of the way to obtain a Continuosly Variable Transmission, so we have to call CVT also hydraulic transmissions (tractors, scrapers, the Honda DN01 ...) and electric trasmissions (locomotives, buses and hybrid cars as Toyotas and the I-MMD). So the i-MMD is a CVT, without belts and pulleys but still capable of continuosly changing the transmission ratio between the petrol engine and wheels. And, as we know, also capable to mechanically join petrol engine and wheels at cruising speed, using a clutch to bypass the electric system.
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As I understand it, in the I-MMD system, when the engine is in generating mode and not connected to the transmission, there is no meaniningful transmission ratio, so it can hardly be called continuously variable. But perhaps this is merely a semantic point!
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Common people use to consider a transmission "something between engine and wheels with gears, chains, belts and shafts", something of mechanical I mean. This is not true, because mechanical transmission are only one of the branch of power transmissions..
To be precise, a transmission is "something between engine and wheels whith the purpose of transferring power". How power is transferred does not change its name, so we do not care if power follows wires or shafts or pipes.
Transmission ratio is calculated comparing rpms between engine and wheels, between "power inlet and power outlet": if it changes continuosly, we have a CVT, even if there are no shafts. This: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mario_Hirz/post/can_any_one_send_me_the_ppt_or_material_to_design_of_automated_gearshift_for_two_wheeler/attachment/59d64495c49f478072ead545/AS%3A273817732091906%401442294642801/download/84368.pdf is a CVT, hydraulic.
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Common people
Woooohooooo. - how do you define common people ? If it is someone who drives a car without knowing how it functions they are by far the majority.
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A transmission is the device that conveys the power from where it is generated to where it is used. A Constantly Variable Transmission has a continuous range of effective ratios. An electric drive does not. It has a single ratio (or in the case of a bypass clutch, two fixed ratios).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission)
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A transmission is the device that conveys the power from where it is generated to where it is used. A Constantly Variable Transmission has a continuous range of effective ratios. An electric drive does not. It has a single ratio (or in the case of a bypass clutch, two fixed ratios).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuously_variable_transmission)
Trasmission, in this case, is what you find after the petrol engine crankshaft and before the wheel bearings. So both the two electric motors, that can also be generators, are included in the transmission, in this case made by two electric motors, regulator, battery and cables.
In a transmission, by definition the ratio is the number you gain dividing rpms of the power inlet (in cars is petrol or diesel engine) by the outlet (wheels). Manual gearboxes have several ratios, each gear is one, and you can calculate them in two ways: one is counting the number of gear teeth (also the final drive, meaning the pinion and ring gear of the differential), so you will obtain the first gear ratio, the second gear ratio, the third and so on. The other way is dividing the rpms, and also in this case each gear will give you the ratio given by the different rpms.
In our cases, a belt&pulley transmission have an effective continuos range of ratios, because the ratio between inlet and output rpms continuosly changes. So we call it CVT. But also electric drive does the same, because the ratio between inlet and output rpms continuosly changes.
I know, it was the same for me, before studying as mechanical engeneering. Only then I discovered that the continuosly variable transmissions is a big family, called CVT, where belt&pulley are only a sub-branch. Car enthusiasts think that CVT are only the belt&pulley because they only know this kind of cvt, but the family is bigger. The "trick", in the case of I-MMD, is considering the two electric motors not as motors but as part of the whole transmission system, as they are essential to vary the ratio between petrol engine and the wheels. Infact Honda, in the technical papers, calls the I-MMD as E-CVT.
https://www.hondarandd.jp/point.php?pid=966&lang=en
Hope you can read it, in case I can provide the PDF.
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Well Honda got it wrong then!
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Well Honda got it wrong then!
Hahahahah yeah!
This is the article abstract:
Summary
A highly efficient SPORT HYBRID Intelligent Multi-Mode Drive system was developed in order to achieve a balance between the joy of driving and measures to address climate change and energy issues. The developed power train is composed of the engine, an electric coupled CVT with a built-in motor and generator, a Power Control Unit, and an Integrated Power Unit. The built-in motor was given higher torque, higher output, and higher efficiency by using reluctance torque and raising the voltage. The Power Control Unit was made more compact and power was increased by enhancing the unit’s heat dissipation performance, and it was made more efficient by using a low-loss chip. As a result, the motor achieves maximum torque of 307 Nm and maximum output of 124 kW, while the Power Control Unit achieves a voltage increase of 700 V and total output of 400 kVA. The Power Control Unit including the motor achieved a maximum efficiency of 96%.
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I'm having trouble understanding why use two motors instead of one (which must add cost) unless one is powering the front wheels and the other is powering the back wheels.
I believe that the CR-Vs i-MMD has a direct drive mode used at higher speeds to avoid the losses of the electric transmission. Does the system in the new Jazz include this mode or does it use the generator (+ battery if needed) > electronics > motor for all operating conditions?
Another aspect which I hope that Honda has addressed is to ensure rapid warm-up of the engine by, for example, restricting fresh air to the engine compartment under cold conditions. Cold petrol engines guzzle fuel.
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Looks like Honda using their F1 drive train experience to make hybrid - they got it right once the McClaren roadblock was removed..
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I'm having trouble understanding why use two motors instead of one (which must add cost) unless one is powering the front wheels and the other is powering the back wheels.
I believe that the CR-Vs i-MMD has a direct drive mode used at higher speeds to avoid the losses of the electric transmission. Does the system in the new Jazz include this mode or does it use the generator (+ battery if needed) > electronics > motor for all operating conditions?
Another aspect which I hope that Honda has addressed is to ensure rapid warm-up of the engine by, for example, restricting fresh air to the engine compartment under cold conditions. Cold petrol engines guzzle fuel.
"Two motors" is a little bit confusing, I agree.
The I-MMD has two motor-generators: one is linked to the petrol engine and can be a generator (converting the mechanical energy from the petrol engine to electricity) but also a motor, used to softly start the petrol engine. As Toyota hybrids, in the i-mmd the petrol engine works only when needed.
The other motor, the biggest, is linked to the differential: as a motor it gives power to the wheels, but releasing gas or braking it recharges the battery as a generator.
I don't know if the system of the new jazz will have the direct drive, there are no technical specs avaiable. At this moment I've seen three i-mmd systems, Accord, CRV (with a 2.0l) and Insight (with a 1.5l), and they all have the direct drive. Let's wait for further news..
About heating... I read a review about the Insight I-mmd (could be by car&driver, my memory lacks) and I was surprised by the reported poor mileage in very cold weather; the petrol engine works not only for electric traction, but also for cabin heating, and the heat request keeps the engine running when usually it would be stopped.
Another tip; Jazz will have an electric climate compressor, powered by the high voltage battery, so the cabin will be cooled even with the petrol engine off for some minutes.
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Looks like Honda using their F1 drive train experience to make hybrid - they got it right once the McClaren roadblock was removed..
Systems are deeply different, so I dont' think they could use F1 experience. F1 is an advertisement...
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Jazzaro's comment about CVT triggered an intriguing (but unimportant!) discussion about the meaning of "transmission" in this context. The Oxford dictionary refers to "The mechanism by which power is transmitted from an engine to the axle in a motor vehicle", and I have difficulty classifying electric cables as a mechanism. So I'll stick to my view that the Mk4 Jazz does not have CVT. I think it will have a fixed ratio transmission at higher speeds.
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mmhmh general dictionaries imho are not the better instrument to understand definitions about very specific fields, mechanics, electronics, anatomy...
I prefer to trust in my university books and in engineers who designed this systems, I-mmd, HSD or other cvt without belts, they all talk about CVT.
Another example:
https://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/200/TechZone/HydraulicPumpsM/Article/False/86140/TechZone-HydraulicPumpsM
No mechanics, only pumps, pipes and hydraulic motors, and this is a CVT, and the reason is still the same.
We can close the OT or open a new discussion.
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Another tip; Jazz will have an electric climate compressor, powered by the high voltage battery, so the cabin will be cooled even with the petrol engine off for some minutes.
That's useful information. I would hope that the system can be run backwards to serve as a heat pump (about 4x more efficient than direct electrical heating) and it could be used, not only for warming the cabin, but also for initial warming of the engine. Once the engine has warmed up then, when it is running, it can be used to provide the cabin heating. That would be progress and a useful step towards achieving good fuel economy for short trips and during cold weather.
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It would be nice, but I don't think they will use this system. Too much complex (it means expensive) and with poor efficiency; heat pump is more efficient than electric heating (infact some EV use it), but less efficient in a hybrid vehicle where heat is free, coming from the petrol engine: The heat pump would use energy produced by the engine, why do this if you can pick it directly from the heated cooling liquid?
Warm up: now petrol engines have specific strategies for warmup, written to reduce warmup time; specific cam phasing (many engines use VTC), specific ignition and injection times and specific hardware, as cooled exaust manifolds for fast liquid heating and separate cooling circuits (head separate from the crank); simplier and cheaper than other systems.
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(https://www.marklines.com/statics/report/img/en/rep1236_015_l.jpg)
This is the climate compressor of the present Fit Hybrid, sold in Japan, the new one should be similar to this.
Another peculiarity will be the brake pump: as all hybrids like Toyotas, Hyundais and the CRV, the pedal does not push directly the pump, but moves a sensor connected with an ECU; electronics decide if braking only with the electric generator (regenerative braking), or adding hydraulic pressure to brake calipers. Toy do the same since the first Prius, so since 1999, twenty years..
https://www.marklines.com/en/report_all/rep1235_201312#report_area_2
See last pictures
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@Jazzaro
Honda have always used a fixed volume scroll type aircon compressor on all their models, not just hybrid. That is why there is a clutch that keeps dropping in and out, other makers use the more complicated 'swash plate' variable piston stroke unit which can vary its volume from full to very little so can stay connected rather than keep being disconnected from drive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scroll_compressor
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My old renault had a Sanden variable displacement compressor, and I miss it; more complicated, maybe more expensive but also definetly more comfortable using low gears and low gas.
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Looks like Honda using their F1 drive train experience to make hybrid - they got it right once the McClaren roadblock was removed..
Systems are deeply different, so I dont' think they could use F1 experience. F1 is an advertisement...
Every advanced technology, be it space exploration or F1 will filter down to everyday products, and the regen / energy recovery and electric power control used in F1 will undoubtedly bring advances in efficiency and reliability to hybrid vehicles - after all both race cars and road cars are looking for more power from a given amount of fuel. That is why the rules for hybrid F1 cars were introduced to push the envelope of efficiency.
https://jalopnik.com/heres-how-hybrid-technology-in-formula-one-has-evolved-1837063286
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_reluctance_motor
The switched reluctance motor is a cross between a stepper motor and a normal AC induction motor. The motor can run on DC by clever electronics creating a rotating magnetic field in the stator that the rotor follows, it means no brushes to wear out because no power needs to be supplied to the rotating parts. These motors have been used in such diverse things as washing machines and robots for quite a while now, as they are capable of high torque and a large speed range.
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Years ago, talking with an old friend working in Ferrari as production engineer, we discussed about F1 and technology. He said that F1 and production are deeply different, because technical purposes are different and only limited fields can match each other. Production car must comply a huge quantity of legal rules, they don't care about confort at all, they do not have to be easy to use and have to last hundred of thousand of kilometers without problems, while F1 engines must last some hundred of chilometers. A production gearbox must be comfortable, reliable and silent, a F1 gearbox must be fast and easy to change gears.. F1 Frames and suspensions must be light and easily tunable, the same parts in production cars must be robust... Brakes, think to brake pads and rotors and what they have to do during their lifecycle... Look at this:
https://www.hondarandd.jp/point.php?pid=1285&lang=en
technical paper about pre-ignition chamber for petrol engines, all F1 engines has it while no series engine, Otto or Atkinson or Miller, works with this: as you can see, the aim of this study is increasing thermal efficiency but complying emission targets, noise reduction and mileage. And the same idea can be replied for hybrid systems: in F1 you look for power and very rapid charge and , in a Yaris the purpose is good mileage, comfort and reliability. He said that there are more similarities between F1 and aerospace, than between F1 and car series production.
So, even if manufacturers spend a lot of money in F1, the main reason is improving the brand image.
See how F1 engines have to be started...
https://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/f1-technique-starting-a-formula-1-engine-part-1?artid=157706
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If the list price of a basic Jazz were to be as high as £27,000 then it would be priced out of the market by Toyota and even the current Civic SE petrol costs under £19500. From memory the previous Jazz Hybrid was only priced at about £2000 to £3000 more than a manual petrol Jazz.
Basic Yaris
18,940.00 standard petrol
16,370.00 hybrid
2,570.00 extra for hybrid
Basic Carolla
25,830.00 standard petrol
23,380.00 hybrid
2,450.00 extra for hybrid
Having bought 3 Jazz cars from new, I would like to replace my Jazz possibly next year, but there is no way I would consider paying £27,000 for my next car. If the price of the Jazz is set that high then I suspect that Honda will be risking the loss of a large number of loyal Jazz customers in the Super Min / B sector.
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£27k would be massively over the top. It would make it as expensive if not more expensive than some of the cheaper EVs like the Zoe and the MG EV. I can't believe they would sell a single unit at that price. You would have to be clinically insane to pay that much when you get a Toyota Yaris Hybrid for nearly £10k less.
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Disc brakes, DSG gearboxes, multi-link suspension, safety cages ( yes your car has one- it is just well hidden ), aerodynamics, improved tyres, limited slip differentials, better lubricating oils, etc. etc. etc. have all come down from motorsport. To say that technical improvements in racing do not filter down to your road car is just plain wrong - some of the things are too expensive to be able to be fitted to production cars straight away, but often cheaper versions are developed, or cost comes down enough to include them. The things that last hours in a highly stressed race engine will last 100,000's of miles in your car engine due to better materials developed from motorsports experience.
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Motor sport has driven technology, that soon finds its way into production vehicles. Things that start off in f1, rallying and saloon car racing all improve the breed.
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Disc brakes, DSG gearboxes, multi-link suspension, safety cages ( yes your car has one- it is just well hidden ), aerodynamics, improved tyres, limited slip differentials, better lubricating oils, etc. etc. etc. have all come down from motorsport. To say that technical improvements in racing do not filter down to your road car is just plain wrong - some of the things are too expensive to be able to be fitted to production cars straight away, but often cheaper versions are developed, or cost comes down enough to include them. The things that last hours in a highly stressed race engine will last 100,000's of miles in your car engine due to better materials developed from motorsports experience.
I agree with you if you say that motorsport in general can transfer some new technologies to series production, but not if we talk about F1. Rallies, Endurance, DTM, Superbike in many cases are laboratories, and experience can be used in big series production because purposes can be similar, but F1 is too different in all its parts to be useful, words from a Ferrari engineer, not from a farmer.
It's similar to say that experience in container ship diesel engines can be used for modern automotive common rail diesel... Ok, they both are diesel, they both have pistons, they both have injectors... but it's brightly clear that we have two deeply different kind of engines, with different purposes and different techniques to be used.
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Disc brakes were used on f1 cars after unsuccessfully being tried for production cars. The experience gained in racing lead to the successful development of disc brakes as we know them today. Many other f1 technologies have also made there way into the cars we drive today, as will some of the current esoteric systems on today's f1 cars.
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Disk brakes, radial tires and turbo blades advanced materials are the only techniques transferred from F1 to standard production, fields where racing F1 experience has been useful immediately or some years after in cars for common people. Pratically all other F1 techniques are not useful, too much different even if names and position in the car are similar. But press offices does not say this...
Some years ago I remember a very funny thing... The official website of Alfa Romeo, in the Alfa147 page, writed that "suspension are derived from F1", this because the front suspension was not a McPherson geometry but a 4 lever scheme. Advertisement, press documents and hidden influencers in blog and forums were pushing hardly this idea, trying to convince potential buyers that 4 levers were the same of the Schumacher Ferrari F1. But obviously this was not true... A F1 has 4 levers, drawing a parallelogram where lower arms have more or less the same lenghth of the upper ones, while the 147 had an 3 points upper short arm, and a long 3 points L-shape lower arm. 147 suspension has a long travel, F1 very short, 147 has soft silent blocks to filter road roughness, F1 has metal uniballs to be more rigid as possible... 147 used this scheme to have a good handling and confort performances in braking and turning (the low rigidity chassis of the Tipo family could not give both with a standard McPherson..), F1 use that scheme for a good wheel position, an easy camber and caster regulation and for aerodinamics... Everyone not stopping at the leaflet can understand that suspensions are deeply different.
Same for variable lenghth intake ducts: F1 naturally aspirated engines used continuosly valiable lenght trumpets, while series producion sometimes was using a two way intake duct, with a butterfly valve used to choose the short or the long path. Same name but very different device... Same for combustion study, even if both F1 and series can have turbocharged engines, F1 engines have high bores and short strokes, this to gain high rpms (best configuration to reduce mechanical stress at high rpms) and keep a good flame propagation, not easy at F1 rpms... In a series engine, rpms are 3 times lower, and combustion path does not be quick (exhaust valve open always after the end of combustion, not always true for f1 at 16000rpm..) but has to be soft and constant, if possible far from the cylinder walls. So also here f1 experience cannot be used for series.
We could also talk about safety cages, and how differently they are designed and how differently they work... Things are different if we compare other motorsport techniques with series, such as rally design, here we really have a big technology transfer..
So don't listen to press agencies...
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Radial ply tyres did not come from f1. They were developed by Citroen, in the 1940's but had been designed and patented long before that.
I am not saying that technologies are lifted straight from f1 for road cars, but the design and concepts are transferred, albeit in a modified manner for, the cars we use today.
Carbon fibre chassis came from f1 (BMW i3), rear view mirrors beside the driver originated from f1 (prior to that cars had a small mirror on the wing - if you were lucky), buttons on the steering wheel were an f1 idea (now most cars have them (even of just for radio and cruise control), and active suspension came from f1.
High revving engines also came from f1. Back in the 60's engines red lined at 5,500 rpm or there about. Now many production engines will rev to 8,700 (Audi R8) and even 9,500 (Lexus LFA). The technology may have come from rally and saloon car racing, but they got it from f1.
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I am not saying that technologies are lifted straight from f1 for road cars, but the design and concepts are transferred, albeit in a modified manner for, the cars we use today.
100%,
Technology gets transferred all the time in engineering something may have been developed for one thing but can be used for other things, and improvements in materials filter down. There have been over-square production engines in road cars including the Honda S2000, which redlined at 9K many years ago. and was as reliable as a Swiss watch. My First Civic had double unequal length wishbone suspension.
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Ok.
I hope you'll forgive me if I trust a friend Ferrari engineer more than bloggers.
Let's go back to Jazz Mk4
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Whatever.
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Whatever.
https://www.eurosport.com/formula-1/how-formula-one-technology-improves-your-road-car_sto4975756/story.shtml
Shhhh..... don't tell Jazzaro, a guy from Ferrari is in article saying how they transfer engineers between their car plants and F1 to 'cross pollinate' and improve both divisions, Mercedes do the same.....
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Whatever.
https://www.eurosport.com/formula-1/how-formula-one-technology-improves-your-road-car_sto4975756/story.shtml
Shhhh..... don't tell Jazzaro, a guy from Ferrari is in article saying how they transfer engineers between their car plants and F1 to 'cross pollinate' and improve both divisions, Mercedes do the same.....
I live in Bologna, Ducati is 2km far from my flat, Maranello is 30km far from here, our university send several students and graduates to this two factories, so it's quite common to get in contact with people working in their race divisions or for some close suppliers... In Bologna there are several cars with german number plate starting from IN.... Vw or Audi cars coming from Ingolstadt, owned by VAG and given to people working for Lamborghini or Ducati. I think it's similar to live in Brackley.
I changed my ideas about matters we're chatting after a beer with this friend, hearing infos that are usually unavaiable for press and common people, infos that I would never read from a newspaper citing Mr Binotto or Mr. Wolff. Or maybe pressmen know, but they also know that they cannot publish if they want to have further interviews with these big bosses.
So I can only write my opinions and how I made them, not pretending you cange yours and not teasing if you think different; in Italy we use to say that "opinions are like balls, everybody has it's own".. So everybody can keep it's ideas, we're only chatting about cars.
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Whatever.
https://www.eurosport.com/formula-1/how-formula-one-technology-improves-your-road-car_sto4975756/story.shtml
Shhhh..... don't tell Jazzaro, a guy from Ferrari is in article saying how they transfer engineers between their car plants and F1 to 'cross pollinate' and improve both divisions, Mercedes do the same.....
Me thinks irony is lost in translation :)
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According to Wikipedia the Mk4 Jazz will be on sale in Japan from February and will have the following engine:
LEB-MMD (i-VTEC + Sport Hybrid “i-MMD” (Intelligent Multi Mode Drive))
DOHC 16 valve Atkinson cycle
Displacement: 1.5 L; 91.4 cu in (1,497 cc)
Bore x Stroke: 73.0 mm × 89.5 mm (2.87 in × 3.52 in)
Power: 151 PS (111 kW; 149 hp) / 4,000 – 8,000 rpm
Torque: 267 N⋅m (197 lb⋅ft) / 0 – 3,000 rpm
Honda Insight 2019- (ZE4)
Honda Fit/Jazz Hybrid (4th Gen)
The info has been taken from articles on the Honda Jazz and Honda L Engine.
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According the wikipedia page, the i-DCD transmission would still be used in the IV generation, hard to believe.
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From Honda Europe direct. About 30 seconds in - i-MMD transmission.
Wiki is a hotchpotch of accurate, inaccurate and down right "fake news". Depends who added the entry.
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Ya, sometimes wikipedia is not so accurate.
Anyway, the powertrain can easily be very similar to the Insight.