Queries about the Mk3 CVT compared to the Mk1 CVT

[guest5679]

I have owned a Mk1 CVT Jazz since 2004.  I am about to request a test drive of the Mk3 CVT Jazz and I have some queries specifically about the Mk3 CVT compared to the Mk1 CVT.

On the 22 July 2015, Honda published the following news item on the Web:

http://hondanews.eu/gb/en/cars/media/pressreleases/58326/2015-jazz

In Section “4. New highly efficient engine and new transmissions”, subsection “Choice of manual or CVT transmissions”, there is a lot of what I consider to be gobbledegook about the newly developed CVT.  And it begs questions like:

1. Why did the CVT need redeveloping?.  As far as I am concerned, the Mk1 CVT is brilliant.
2. What is a “natural ‘multi-gear’ feel … which simulates seven speeds”?  I hope this doesn’t mean that there is a perceptible, simulated gear change.  That, in my opinion, would be a terrible retrograde step.  Why would I want a multi-gear feel which simulates seven speeds?  And what is natural about it?
3. What is so different about the European market?  Why has the CVT been redeveloped exclusively for Europe?

Can anyone make any sense of this subsection?

I am also a little concerned about the press critics’ reaction to the Mk3 CVT Jazz.  I read statements suggesting that, if you put your foot down on the accelerator pedal, the revs/min increase but nothing else happens!  This is certainly not true of my Mk1 CVT Jazz.  If I am behind a slow moving car, travelling at say 40 mph, on a single carriageway, I have plenty of power to overtake it.  Moreover, comparing published specifications, my Mk1 CVT Jazz does 0-62mph in 12.3 seconds, and so does the Mk3 CVT Jazz.

I suppose my basic question is, am I going to be disappointed with the Mk3 CVT?  Or am I going to be pleasantly surprised?  Or am I going to notice no difference?

[olduser1]

Some motoring press take the press handouts and ask a how do they run? then finish off their write ups
Just enjoy your test drive it should be around 30 mins and on a variety of roads and try the new car at motorway speed - the good feature being lower revs once in 'top' than your current Jazz.
Dealers are up against targets at this very moment end of month etc.

[John Ratsey]

Ignore most of the waffle in the Honda press release. The 7 logical gear ranges existed in the previous Jazz but only become significant if you drive in S mode using the paddles (in which case the current gear is shown on the display). The CVT remains the same continuous smooth gear ratio change that you are used to. You will not feel any gear changes but can observe the results.

I can only compare my Mk 3 CVT with my previous Jazz hybrid. The latter had the benefit of the motor to help the low end torque and consequently had less need to speed up the engine to supplement the performance. In comparison, the Mk 3 tends to go higher up the rev range when power is needed (but so would a manual gearbox version) and the engine often briefly goes up to 2,500 - 3,000 rpm if pulling away from traffic lights or similar. Once the car is up to speed, however, it will drop back to much lower rpm (approx 30 mph / 1,000 rpm in top gear). At 3,000 rpm the engine noise is noticeable but not objectionable.  I've only seen my Jazz get up to around 4,000 rpm on a couple of occasions when I had to try to merge into fast moving traffic from a short slip road. I get the impression that the motoring press reviewers wear a lead weighted boot on their right foot and don't / can't test cars under everyday motoring conditions when they want to proceed smoothly from A to B and the driver has to pay for the fuel.

In general, the CVT operation is sensitive to changes in the accelerator although, on a few occasions my Jazz has been reluctant to drop a logical gear and speed up the engine in which case a quick pull on the left paddle would provide the needed guidance. I suspect that the bottom end of the engine speed range (up to around 2,500 rpm) is configured for economy and while it delivers enough power for most driving conditions there may well be less torque at that end of the operating range thn your Mk I. If more power is needed then the engine needs to speed up into the range where power takes precedence over economy. One, but only one, of the press reviews I have seen made mention of the engine combining the Atkinson cycle and the Otto cycle. This can be done by changing the valve timings and I'm guessing that the more efficient Atkinson cycle prevails at the lower end of the rpm range.

I am conscious of a slight performance lag when pulling away but, once the revs are up then the power is there, so some anticipation helps. Also, if stopped at some traffic lights then the engine auto idle stop should activate. Ease off the pressure on the brake pedal a couple of seconds before wanting to move so that the engine has a chance to wake up before being asked to accelerate.

[edam]

In the brochure, received this morning, it states that the CVT "seamlessly changing the drive ratio to deliver optimum engine output".
When I test drove the CVT I don't recall noticing any "gear changes". What I did notice was a click from the  pedal when I "kicked down".
Having owned a MK1 CVT I do feel that the DSI/CVT combination was better than the VTEC/CVT. You may notice the difference from the change of engine. I did when I drove my present MK2 CVT.

[guest5679]

My thanks to all those who have replied.  I am somewhat reassured.

I now realise that I should perhaps have given more information about how I drive my Mk1 CVT Jazz as some of the information provided in the replies might not apply to me.  My Mk1 CVT Jazz has three modes of transmission.  Mode 1 is purely automatic.  Mode 2 is 7 speed automatic with the simulated current gear shown in the display.  Mode 3 is manual gear changing using the +/- paddles.

I have never used Mode 3.  I just cannot see the point of expending mental and physical effort changing gear (whether by paddles or by clutch and gear lever) when the technology is there to do it all for you.

I experimented with Mode 2 during the first week of owning my Mk1 CVT Jazz.  However, if I remember correctly, Mode 2 caused the engine to run at higher rpm than Mode 1, even when driving at constant speed.  So, on the assumption that higher rpm means more fuel consumption, I’ve driven my Mk1 CVT Jazz in Mode 1 ever since and never looked back.

So, unless advised otherwise, during my forthcoming the test drive, I will be comparing my Mk1 CVT Jazz with the Mk3 CVT Jazz only in Mode 1.

I’m interested in how the auto idle stop works.  When I stop at traffic lights, I don’t usually move the gear lever into Neutral; I leave it in Drive, keeping my foot on the brake and leaving the hand brake off.  Does the auto idle stop still work in these circumstances?

[trebor1652]

So you're the driver who blinds me with his brake lights because you don't know what a hand brake is for. :-)) :-))

Sent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

[John Ratsey]

So you're the driver who blinds me with his brake lights because you don't know what a hand brake is for. :-)) :-))

That's me!

In my experience touching the CVT gear shift while the auto idle stop is working will immediately result in the engine waking up.

This feature is most annoying (for me) when I get home, stop the car (engine goes off) then shifts gear level to P and the engine starts again, all with my foot on the brake pedal.

Perhaps a future Jazz will be clever enough to be able to detect that there is someone close behind who is stopped and then turn the brake lights off while the brake pedal remains depressed.

[guest5679]

So you're the driver who blinds me with his brake lights because you don't know what a hand brake is for.

I suppose I asked for that, although it hadn’t crossed my mind that keeping my foot on the brake pedal keeps the brake lights on and that this might be a cause of annoyance to the driver behind.

However, I believe it is standard practice among drivers of automatics.  I do use my hand brake and put the gear lever into Neutral when I know the car is going to be stationary for a longer period.  It does require some effort to keep your foot continually on the brake pedal.  But for short stops (at traffic lights, at a roundabout, at a road junction, in a traffic jam, etc.), it is easier to keep your foot on the brake pedal and leave the gear lever in Drive.

[Dayjo]

A handbrake was included, when I bought my car. I use it! 

Most drivers, in front of me, seem not to know what it's for! 

David.

[trebor1652]

Yes I was always taught to put the handbrake on no matter how short the stop was! Perhaps the handbrake does not come in the driving test nowadays. :-)) :-))

Sent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

[guest5664]

the last time that i used my handbrake was i think 20 years ago.

[culzean]

One, but only one, of the press reviews I have seen made mention of the engine combining the Atkinson cycle and the Otto cycle. This can be done by changing the valve timings and I'm guessing that the more efficient Atkinson cycle prevails at the lower end of the rpm range.

The 6th generation Civic 1.8VTEC (2006 on)  leaves inlet valves open longer (past TDC position) at lower revs to allow mixture to be pumped back into inlet manifold and lower the compression ratio, and also leaves throttle butterfly open to reduce pumping losses in the engine (when engine power is wasted by engine sucking against a closed throttle butterfly).  So I guess that is partly Atkinson cycle and partly Honda wizardry which stops the engine trying to gain revs when butterfly is left open.   This technology may have found its way into new Jazz engine.

Pumping losses are very low on Diesels where there isn't a throttle that limits incoming air and engine revs are controlled by quantity and timing of fuel injected.

[Ozzie]

Yes I was always taught to put the handbrake on no matter how short the stop was! Perhaps the handbrake does not come in the driving test nowadays. :-)) :-))

Sent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

On the driving test, use of the handbrake is, and always has been discretionary, you don't have to use it, but you can use it if you want to. Realistically when a pause becomes a wait use the handbrake, but I prefer pupils to keep their foot on the footbrake, so the muppet behind knows we haven't gone yet Does it annoy them? Possibly, but no-where near as much as it annoys me when they rear-end me because "I thought you would have gone".

[guest4871]

Interesting. I thought it was mandatory to use the handbrake at a stop sign?

[culzean]

Interesting. I thought it was mandatory to use the handbrake at a stop sign?

http://www.diaryofanadi.co.uk/?p=4700

Blog of an advanced driving instructor - this page is about handbrake use,  but read 'about me' tab as well - very interesting stuff in there