Author Topic: Non Starter  (Read 5035 times)

Sharon

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Re: Non Starter
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2019, 07:03:04 PM »
ok, battery went flat again. Realised the battery was still in warranty with AA so thought I'd try and get them to change it. They came out and whilst their test only said "battery needs charging" (as opposed to battery needs condeming) the guy was decent enough to change it anyway. So, brand new battery.

Using the Halfords gadget I can see that it never gets higher than the 12v first stage reading, and now, for some reason, when driving, instead of all the lights being on all the time, even this is intermittent, sometimes they all come on, sometimes they go off and there is just the first light on. Is this now pointing to an alternator issue?

culzean

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Re: Non Starter
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2019, 08:46:58 PM »
All lights should be on with engine running, are you sure they supplied you a new battery, they may pass on the one they took out of your car to another punter.... ( how cynical I am ).  The Halfords ( Ring ) lights are pretty foolproof as the circuitry inside the device only allows them to light up at or above the set voltage, so if the last light does not light up with 'new' battery but did with old one it's a puzzle. The advice earlier in thread about having a sticky relay would explain why battery is going flat intermittently - the aircon clutch relay is the most likely suspect as it feeds an inductive load which will cause sparks at the contacts as the relay switches off which damages the contacts - the heated screen, mirror and head light ones have resistive loads which do not spark. 

Didn't the AA engineer test the alternator output while he was checking your car ? Seems strange if they did not..... seems to me to be the most obvious and basic check if battery going flat.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 08:50:50 PM by culzean »
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sparky Paul

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Re: Non Starter
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2019, 09:28:53 PM »
Using the Halfords gadget I can see that it never gets higher than the 12v first stage reading, and now, for some reason, when driving, instead of all the lights being on all the time, even this is intermittent, sometimes they all come on, sometimes they go off and there is just the first light on. Is this now pointing to an alternator issue?

Alternator check, which is more or less what you have done yourself with the gadget, points to an intermittent fault in the charging circuit somewhere.

There's a good chance it could be alternator, but get all connections to the alternator, battery to chassis earth cable, and the earth strap to the engine checked first - they are a lot cheaper to rectify.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 09:30:53 PM by sparky Paul »

culzean

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Re: Non Starter
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2019, 09:17:37 AM »
Another quick check is to put headlights on and rev the engine - with filament bulbs the lights should brighten up as engine goes from tickover to about 2000 rpm as system voltage rises - as Sparky Paul says corrosion of terminals and earth strap can be problematic - especially where copper or brass earth strap lugs bolt to steel body or aluminium of engine ( where the different metals can cause electrolytic corrosion ). 

As a matter of course when i get a car I always bolt one of these straight from negative battery terminal to the engine ( one of the 6mm bolts on the clutch slave cylinder makes a handy fixing point on the engine ). The PDF attachment shows if fitted on a MK2 Jazz but gives an example.  This will not cure a faulty alternator but at least makes sure there is a good connection between battery and engine other than the dodgy straps bolted to steel bodywork which are very prone to corrosion,  and gives the high current a much better path when starting the engine.

https://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SearchRouter?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10151&action=search&srch=braided+earth+strap

If you want a more technical way to check system voltage -

 https://www.halfords.com/motoring/motorcycling/motorcycle-battery-chargers-accessories/ring-12v--battery-voltage-tester?_br_psugg_q=voltmeter

Here is a link to similar problem on MK2, seems the battery was OK in winter but when the guy started using aircon in warmer weather the problem returned, which pointed to a sticking aircon relay - unfortunately never did get a final answer. 

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=9841.30

There is an electronic load detection unit in the underbonnet fusebox of the Jazz that senses the load being drawn from battery and adjusts the alternator output accordingly, if this is faulty it could give the effect of a faulty alternator - I would turn all lights and heated things on ( mirrors and windows ) and see if that extra load kicks the alternator and brings the four lights on Halfords gadget on,  if it does it could be that the load sensor needs some attention.

Information of load sensor with photographs

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10222.msg60870#msg60870
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 10:05:36 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Non Starter
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2019, 12:14:33 PM »
For the complexities of modern vehicle electrical systems I have always found forking out a little cash and employing the services of a good specialist auto electrician worth the money.
There is such a business near me, and the twice that I have used them has saved me considerable stress (and I am a retired Electronic/Electrical Engineer). These guys deal with vehicle electrics day in day out and have all the gear for diagnostic checks.

culzean

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Re: Non Starter
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2019, 06:09:34 PM »
For the complexities of modern vehicle electrical systems I have always found forking out a little cash and employing the services of a good specialist auto electrician worth the money.
There is such a business near me, and the twice that I have used them has saved me considerable stress (and I am a retired Electronic/Electrical Engineer). These guys deal with vehicle electrics day in day out and have all the gear for diagnostic checks.

I think the technical ability of dealers has been declining for a long time now,  they often cannot fix things even with the full backing of company that made the car - maybe they think more of their salesmen than their workshop people.  A good specialist will probably have more experienced staff.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Sharon

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Re: Non Starter
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2019, 03:12:30 PM »
STILL having a nightmare with this.

After the AA put a new battery in, it went ok for a while. Then it failed, totally flat in the morning. I went to see the auto elec guy and he tested it. Said the battery was charging fine, and that it would need more extensive tests. Asked me to book it in a week later.
For the rest of that week, it all ran ok.  And I decided to cancel the appointment thinking (hoping)  that I may have gone over a bump or something and the fault had righted itself.
A week after that, it was flat again one morning, and then again the next  morning.
Called auto elec guy, but as he seems to be the busiest man on Earth, he was booked up for the next week or so. He told me to call him the following week. 
During that time, the fault was intermittent. Sometimes the battery would be ok for a few days, then totally flat. The last two days before I saw the electrician, it was flat.
So ...... today I went to see him. He lifted the bonnet, tested the battery, shut the bonnet and said "the fault is that your battery is knackered". WHAT? It's a virtually new battery and the AA put it in a few weeks ago BECAUSE of this ongoing fault"!!  He said,  " the issue now is that your battery is knackered and we cant go anywhere else until you get a new one".
Arrrgghhh. I've had to now go out and buy a new battery, but I just know it's going to be flat again in 2/3 days. At that point, when I try to contact the electrician, he will no doubt be booked up again for a week or two, meaning that my battery will be going flat every other day and end up knackered again.
How can I get this sorted????

Jocko

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Re: Non Starter
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2019, 03:41:12 PM »
What I would do is arrange for the auto electrician to fit a new battery and do the necessary checks at a time suitable to you both. If he fits the battery he has no wriggle room later.

sparky Paul

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Re: Non Starter
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2019, 04:53:41 PM »
Sorry to hear that this still isn't resolved.

I'm surprised that a new battery has been wiped out in a the space of of a few weeks, even with the abuse it's had. A new battery should be able to stand heavy discharges for that short a period. Make sure you keep the old battery and contact the AA with a view to claiming under warranty. Preferably, if you can, charge it to full and check it for a week or two before condemning it.

Some auto electricians like to eliminate the battery, by replacing it, before even looking at a starting/charging problem. The ELD (electronic load detector) mentioned by culzean is also a fairly common failure, and there are auto electricians out there that haven't a clue what they are. They are also difficult to diagnose if the fault is intermittant.

culzean

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Re: Non Starter
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2019, 06:28:12 PM »
Personally I would suspect a sticking relay - probably aircon clutch solenoid but maybe heated mirror or rear windscreen. 

If you are keeping an eye on the four LED indicators on the cup holder gizmo and the green one is lit up with engine running  the battery should be charging fine, but discharging overnight means a big parasitic load,  the aircon clutch draws over 3 amps so will easily flatten a Jazz battery overnight, heated mirrors even more, and rear screen maybe 12 to 15 amps ( flatten fully charged battery in less than 3 hours ).
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Sharon

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Re: Non Starter
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2019, 07:20:33 PM »
Thanks for your help guys.

The idea of getting the auto elec guy to fit the battery was great. Unfortunately, I went out immediately and got a new one fitted at a place he recommended.

Meanwhile, the halfords gadget: - After the new battery was fitted I drove off and only the first two lights were on. I accept that the battery probably needs a charge as it's new, but, does this suggest again that the alternator is not charging the battery? This happened on the last battery. Sometimes all the lights would be on when driving, sometimes, just one or two.   

culzean

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Re: Non Starter
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2019, 07:52:18 PM »
The new battery should be pretty well charged when fitted, but even if it wasn't the alternator should easily be able to generate enough current to charge it and run the car electrics..


If only two lights on when driving you certainly have a charging problem as two lights showing only about 12 volts - which means alternator doing nothing.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Sharon

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Re: Non Starter
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2019, 09:16:11 PM »
ok, and when the auto elec guy tested it, he said the battery was charging fine. SO... seems that its potentially the alternator,  with an intermittent problem.

sparky Paul

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Re: Non Starter
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2019, 09:18:40 PM »
culzean's absolutely right, we are back where you originally got the voltage indicator - a fault causing intermittent charging.

As you say, probably alternator. Less likely, but possible, ELD unit.

culzean

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Re: Non Starter
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2019, 09:16:56 AM »
Counter intuitive as it sounds try putting all the headlights and heated things on while engine running,  this can kick the ELD into telling the alternator to max charge,  found this on a Ford site where unless you fit the correct AGM battery the ELD will not work properly and people in Ford cars were getting flat batteries after OEM battery replaced for another type, when correct spec battery fitted everything OK,  the Ford ELD system was very complicated though,  looking for battery temp and other stuff to decide battery charge.

Look at this thread, especially reply #7

https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=10222.msg60932#msg60932
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 09:19:16 AM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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