Author Topic: Hybrid battery  (Read 11408 times)

seadog

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Hybrid battery
« on: November 21, 2016, 03:13:36 PM »
At the dealer today having the CVT fluid replaced,  and the sales manager is trying to scare me into buying a new Jazz as he says that my 61 reg hybrid Jazz has a 7 year warranty on the hybrid battery and if I keep the car any longer the value of the car will drop like a stone as a new battery costs over £3,000. Any one had any experience of the cost of a new battery or a reduction in value in their Jazz for that reason?

culzean

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Re: Hybrid battery
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2016, 05:33:21 PM »
Don't have any personal experience of hybrid car batteries,  but do know batteries pretty well.

Things that kill batteries are -

being kept in a low state of charge,
 
being in hot environments (or self heating from aggressive charging)

and something called DoD (Depth of Discharge).  The last one is how low you let the battery charge get before you recharge it,  if you continually top it up and it never gets below 50% discharged then it will have a longer life than if you continually let the range meter drop to almost zero before deciding to charge it,  basically every time the battery gets to a low state of charge it suffers permanent damage,  and these DoD episodes are cumulative - I don't know how the battery is managed in the Honda Hybrid,  but I guess it will only be allowed to get partly discharged before the system will not allow power to be drawn from it until it has something put back in.

Batteries are tricky things and no-one can predict their durability under the varying circumstances they are subject to,  but the truth is, if its got t!ts, tyres or batteries its gonna give you problems.  As they get used / get older (even if not used !) batteries lose the ability to store as much power.  If you have a laptop or phone consider we know battery will suffer up to 5 to 10% a year loss in capacity (you have to charge it more often).

So the ideal thing for a vehicle is to have a large battery and don't discharge it much at the stated max range,  but larger battery will take up more space and also add weight,  which needs power to move it. So its a trade-off between expecting people to regularly use only a percentage of the total capacity - so if you drove a Tesla to full claimed range every time before charging it the battery pack would not have a long life.

https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/31/battery-lifetime-long-can-electric-vehicle-batteries-last/

https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/pressroom/newsreleases/2013/april/understanding-the-life-of-lithium-ion-batteries-in-electric-vehicles.html


« Last Edit: November 21, 2016, 05:54:11 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

olduser1

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Re: Hybrid battery
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2016, 06:32:16 PM »
Just take a search for Hybrid models and check their £'s on Autotrader, not heard of any issues with Uk spec'd Jazz so far.

Ozzie

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Re: Hybrid battery
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2016, 07:09:28 PM »
My Hybrid is at 197,500 and a 61 reg (Sept 2011) and the battery pack is running fine. Going by the information screen the battery is about 90% charged most of the time, occasionally dropping to 50% after hard acceleration.

culzean

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Re: Hybrid battery
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2016, 07:29:21 PM »
My Hybrid is at 197,500 and a 61 reg (Sept 2011) and the battery pack is running fine. Going by the information screen the battery is about 90% charged most of the time, occasionally dropping to 50% after hard acceleration.

As I suspected,  to get a decent battery lifetime they don't let battery discharge too much during normal use. 
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

madasafish

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Re: Hybrid battery
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2016, 09:51:35 AM »
Strangely enough I have heard no issues about the batteries fitted to Toyota Prius.. far longer in production.

IF the battery fails, it will be due to failure of a number of cells.# There is a market for repair of these batteries through cell replacement. Think cost of £350-£600...

See http://tinyurl.com/gpm98sf
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 09:53:12 AM by madasafish »

culzean

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Re: Hybrid battery
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2016, 11:36:12 AM »
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a31463/tesla-supercharger-station-no-longer-free/

http://www.consumerreports.org/tesla/tesla-superchargers-model-3/

bit off topic (what's new) Tesla are discontinuing free charging for their cars at their nationwide 'supercharge' stations, advising that new buyers will not get this service and will have to pay.  Part of the problem is long queues at these stations and they are advising people to charge cars at home or work - didn't any one foresee this problem, it's not rocket science.

It takes about 8 hours for full charge on a current limited household supply and up to 80 minutes for a full charge on 'supercharge' station,  well in 80 minutes a single petrol pump can fill up about 16 cars with a 'full charge' of petrol,  enough for 4 to 500 miles,  where the Tesla takes 80 minutes to get about 200 miles on board.  Owners will start to see true cost of electricity now,  still maybe cheaper than a petrol car but considering the initial cost of the car,  it will have to be a big difference in cost and a lot of miles covered to get your money back.

something else to think about ......... it's not the first time I have seen the term 'range anxiety' used in road tests on pure electric cars,  and also in drivers reviews.  If a car runs out of petrol you can get your mate to bring you a gallon of fuel in a can and put it in your tank, if you run out of battery power what do you do,  your very expensive electric vehicle is now officially a stationary roadside ornament.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/02/winter-chills-limit-range-of-the-tesla-model-s-electric-car/index.htm

I don't see how the UK grid could supply the power if we get more electric vehicles,  the supply is a bit creaky at the moment with less than 5% overcapacity available in the winter even with current demand levels, the latest idea is that people put solar panels on their garage or house just to charge their car,  but I'm guessing most people will want to charge car overnight (when its dark Dooohhh) - if you take expense of fitting at least 10KW of solar into the equation electric cars just got even more expensive.


I think Hybrid petrol / electric or petrol / electric with plug-in charging may be the way forward for maximum flexibility - looks like the Japs were ahead of the game once again.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 01:09:23 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

John Ratsey

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Re: Hybrid battery
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2016, 02:05:47 PM »
I'm a little puzzled why car manufacturers aren't building solar panels into vehicles. Normal vehicles could benefit from a modest panel (perhaps built into the dashboard) just to trickle charge the battery (and maybe electrical equipment while moving) while hybrids could benefit from bigger panels which could cover the car roof and not only charge the big battery when parked outside but also provide a contribution towards the power consumption when moving. This obviously wouldn't help for vehicles parked under cover or when driving at night but every little helps.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

madasafish

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Re: Hybrid battery
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2016, 04:04:01 PM »
When BIG battery costs fall enough, solar panels on houses to charge and in house battery to supplement the mains will be a feasible option...

You could use that to charge the EV.. But 20 years technology to come first and we will all be driving hydrogen powered cars... 8)

guest1372

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Re: Hybrid battery
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2016, 10:44:44 AM »
2012 Fisker Karma plug in hybrid (now defunct)

--
TG

culzean

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Re: Hybrid battery
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2016, 12:48:00 PM »
Interesting thought to have PV panels on a car but----------

A standard 250 watt PV panel measures about 1.6 metres x 1 metre and will produce 1 amp (when converted from DC from panel to AC 230 volt with some losses)  in bright sun.   They are not very efficient (about 160 watts  / M2 ) and rely on large number of panels to produce meaningfull power - to expect one that can be mounted on a car roof to contribute much to charging EV battery is a faint hope.   Normally and electric car with short range (<70 miles like a Nissan Leaf etc.) will take 24KWH to recharge battery from low level,  from a 230v household supply a standard socket outlet can supply 13 amps = 3KWH or 8 to 9 hours to charge fully,  normally to get a reasonable charge time a 40 amp socket is fitted = about 9KWH which will fully charge battery in around 3 to 5 hours (as battery gets over half charge the charging rate has to be reduced to protect battery).

With an 85 KWH Tesla battery charging from  9KWH  40 amp supply would take at least 9 hours,  charging from a standard 3KWH  (13 amps at 230V) socket supply would need a calendar to track.
Teslas later cars have 120 KWH battery pack, their supercharger  can deliver 135KWH (but when 2 cars plug into same charger this drops to 65KWH available per car).

And the bad news is that PV panels don’t work in the dark so even with enough solar panels on your house / garage / garden etc  overnight charging is not possible unless you install storage batteries in your house / shed / garage,  and these will add inefficiencies into the system when you need to convert power from AC 230v to DC to charge batteries and then DC from batteries to AC to charge the car.  May as well use power from your electricity supplier to charge the car,  but as the usage of electric cars increases the supply grid and generation capacity will need upgrading massively and guess what ? Electricity prices will increase to pay for this.  Now how about a gas powered car ??

http://jacquesmattheij.com/the-problem-with-evs
« Last Edit: November 23, 2016, 12:49:48 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

madasafish

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Re: Hybrid battery
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2016, 01:49:54 PM »
Interesting thought to have PV panels on a car but----------

  May as well use power from your electricity supplier to charge the car,  but as the usage of electric cars increases the supply grid and generation capacity will need upgrading massively and guess what ? Electricity prices will increase to pay for this.  Now how about a gas powered car ??

http://jacquesmattheij.com/the-problem-with-evs

which is why we will drive hydrogen powered cars

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