Electric cars

[Kremmen]

I'm hoping to get a Jazz hybrid later this year and hopefully hang onto it till 2030 ish. My current car is 8 years old, only on 24k and with my low mileage 8 years is easily doable.

The Which? article is interesting and whether the petrol big boys try it on we will see.

I remember when supermarkets started selling petrol, undercutting the big boys who were up in arms. I dread to think what petrol would cost now if it wasn't for the supermarkets.

[Jocko]

Have you seen https://chargeplacescotland.org/ I posted above Jocko?

I have, thanks. The charging infrastructure here and the prices charged are strong drivers of my urge to go electric. Although I intend to charge at home 99.9% of the time. We are also talking about installing solar panels as the house has a SSW aspect, with no trees, hills or such to block the sun. That way, I can charge up during the day at no electricity cost.
Most UK cars come with Type 2 and CCS charging points, so they are more or less universal. Type 2 can use many Tesla Superchargers but don't get the speed of charge a Tesla would.





CCS
CHAdeMO is the oddball, but adaptors are available.
Type 2 and Tesla.

[Jocko]

MG5 Dealer service costs.

1st year - £53.40.
2nd year - £132.98.
3rd year - £152,65. (MOT)
4th year - £186.63. (MOT)

I haven't looked into what you get for that, but I know it includes corrosion checks for the bodywork warranty. And of course, it comes with a seven-year warranty

[sparky Paul]

I agree cash is likely to be less and less of an issue going forward. That said I have checked with one of my EV owning pals and he confirms that he still has to have several apps and RFID cards if going further afield.

Some companies - BP for one - are going down the credit/debit card route but others - like Ecotricity who have a virtual monopoly on the motorway network, do not allow universal access.

I can only go on the ones near me, and all the sites within ten miles are freely accessible without subscription or pre-registration, except for one - which is one of the hosted units on a small filling station. I live near the A1, and there are very no Ecotricity sites around here at all, Shell & BP seem to be the most common trunk road/motorway sites within 50 miles or so.

This really isn't rocket science. Incidentally, by 2030, research indicates that the fuel mix of cars on UK roads will be 12 million EVs and 21 million ICE (some hybrid of course). Ideally you would want those numbers reversing. Anecdotal evidence (my neighbour owns a garage) indicates that resistance to going EV will last long after 2030 until and unless universal access and universal charging protocols are adopted.

2030 will still see a lot of legacy vehicles on the road, people like me aren't going to be rushing to scrap perfectly good petrol and diesel vehicles. I think we will also see residuals of these vehicles plummeting soon, that's why I have absolutely no intention of ploughing any sort of money into a car for some time. It's a tricky time to be buying. Petrol/diesel is on the way out, and electric is still in the early adopter phase really, without fully matured technology.

I think things will soon change as the big fuel suppliers switch over to recharging sites, and the common standards for charging are already in the pipeline. I think your garage owning neighbour will be surprised by the progress over the next 5 years, and I suspect that there are many drivers of diesel/petrol cars who don't realise how quickly this infrastructure is being built.

I agree progress is being made. My argument is that it is not happening quickly enough and, as far as I can see, no progress has been made towards a universal charging protocol so ALL cars can recharge at ALL charging points.

A universal charging standard is coming, many of the volume manufacturers have signed up to the project, and even Tesla have committed to it.


Really interesting discussion this though!

[sparky Paul]

MG5 Dealer service costs.

1st year - £53.40.
2nd year - £132.98.
3rd year - £152,65. (MOT)
4th year - £186.63. (MOT)

I haven't looked into what you get for that, but I know it includes corrosion checks for the bodywork warranty. And of course, it comes with a seven-year warranty

They're not going to be doing a lot, are they.

A sheet of 'check this' boxes to tick, but not much actually done apart from greasing the door hinges 

According to this https://mg.co.uk/owners/servicing/#vip-all-new-mg5-ev-2020-on

interval 15K
pollen filter, brake fluid and new key batteries every 30K
coolant replaced every 75K

...and a free 'Morris the bear'

[John Ratsey]

With EVs returning around 3 to 4 miles kWh at 41p/kWh, that works out at about 10 - 13p/mile. Shell beside me is currently charging £5.77/gallon of bog-standard unleaded (this is a town price, not motorway prices). So unless you get more than 44 mpg, that is no more eye-watering than filling up with Shell, and at 10p/mile, you have to get more than 57.7 mpg for the petrol to be cheaper

Get a hybrid as the half-way solution and the numbers change. I can potter along in my Crosstar and get 70mpg (~8p/mile) and, with the range on a full tank being well over 500 miles, have plenty of options to refuel where it's cheapest. I see potential for the resale value of such vehicles staying good once sale if new ones has been discontinued.

Reminds me of Smart Meters.
Another very expensive shambles.

I agree that the smart meter roll-out has taken somewhat longer than planned but they do have their uses. I'm getting my energy from Octopus and a couple of years ago I applied to switch to their Go tariff (5p/kWh between 00.30 and 04:30 - ideal for charging my Tesla Powerwall battery during the winter half of the years when the solar generation isn't good). Because I've got smart meters the change was effective from midnight on the day of application. The meters automatically send half-hourly consumption data and all that was needed was for the computer to cost the relevant data at a lower rate.

Smart meters can't cut off your power but provide the capability to implement variable pricing according to the time of day (the Octopus Agile tariff does this). It's then up to the user to adjust their consumption pattern to minimise their energy costs.

I see potential for the public EV charging network to behave in a similar pattern with the various apps alerting people that if they want to top up their battery in the middle of a windy, sunny, summer day then it will be cheap but wait until 6pm on a winter day and it will be very expensive.

[culzean]

Some of the more 'switched on' power companies are using Smart meters ability to vary the rates during the day but when you see the adverts 'get a smart meter and save power' they are a bit misleading. They are referring to the display that shows you that your shower uses 9KW, kettle uses 3KW, tumble dryer 3KW and your toaster 1.5KW etc.  sure the information is there,  but unless people use that info to change their habits they are not gonna save much.  I remember a bloke on a program talking about smart meters years ago, when they were just being rolled out and he said it was a golden opportunity to introduce variable rates for power but that the energy companies did not seem inclined to do that ( and one company recently got fined for still fitting the old MK1 meters that turn dumb when you change supplier ).   Many countries in the world use the actual power lines to your house to transmit and receive info ( PLC ), but not the good old UK, we decided to use cell phone network - or maybe wi-fi.   Australia used a signal down the power lines to turn water heaters on and off to regulate demand way back in the 1980's when we lived there,  I am assuming that smart meters will also eventually have a 'load shedding' capacity due to the vagaries of renewables,  maybe a 'smart distribution board' where some non-critical loads like water heaters can be controlled.  They may also turn car charging on and off LOL...

 https://www.eetimes.com/power-line-communications-for-smart-meter-networks/ 

[Jocko]

My mother-in-law has a PAYG electricity meter, and we changed to SMART metering so that I could check her balance and top up from home. It worked for the first top-up but not since. I now have to check her balance when I am over, top-up online, then manually enter the huge code it gives me for the payment into the meter. I think her gas meter works as it should.

[madasafish]

We have a mark 1 Smart Meter installed in 2014 iirc. Never worked since we changed suppliers in 2015. All readings manual...

[sparky Paul]

We have a mark 1 Smart Meter installed in 2014 iirc. Never worked since we changed suppliers in 2015. All readings manual...

..and that's the problem with the older SMETS1 and ADM smart meters - change supplier, and you may well have to have a new smart meter fitted for it to work. Bear is mind that some suppliers are still fitting these first generation smart meters, and that the consumer is paying for the costs of all these installs through a levy on the bills. Security is also suspect on the older smart meters.

Smart meters can't cut off your power

They certainly can cut off your supply remotely, however UK suppliers have so far agreed not to use the facility. The smart meter contains a contactor (or valve) to do just that.

I am assuming that smart meters will also eventually have a 'load shedding' capacity due to the vagaries of renewables,  maybe a 'smart distribution board' where some non-critical loads like water heaters can be controlled.  They may also turn car charging on and off LOL...

 https://www.eetimes.com/power-line-communications-for-smart-meter-networks/ 

You're absolutely right culzean, it's coming.

Ofgem is currently consulting on a new type of smart meter with multiple outputs which can be switched remotely. The idea is that high power circuits such as car charging will be switched as network capacity allows - the only advantage to the consumer would be access to a cheaper tariff maybe. If this ends up being used primarily for network balancing, and not for tariff advantage, it seems to me that this would be very easily circumvented.

https://www.dcusa.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/DCP-371_Last-resort-arrangements-for-Distributors-to-manage-specific-consumer-connected-devices.pdf

https://smartenergycodecompany.co.uk/modifications/allow-dnos-to-control-electric-vehicle-chargers-connected-to-smart-meter-infrastructure/

[John Ratsey]

Some of the more 'switched on' power companies are using Smart meters ability to vary the rates during the day but when you see the adverts 'get a smart meter and save power' they are a bit misleading.

Yes, it's up to the customer to use the extra information to save power with the potential of doing load shifting to reduce cost.

Many countries in the world use the actual power lines to your house to transmit and receive info ( PLC ), but not the good old UK, we decided to use cell phone network - or maybe wi-fi.   Australia used a signal down the power lines to turn water heaters on and off to regulate demand way back in the 1980's when we lived there,  I am assuming that smart meters will also eventually have a 'load shedding' capacity due to the vagaries of renewables,  maybe a 'smart distribution board' where some non-critical loads like water heaters can be controlled.  They may also turn car charging on and off LOL...

Here's an example of current Australian technology https://reneweconomy.com.au/switching-off-rooftop-solar-will-become-a-regular-feature-of-a-renewables-grid/ . It's not the meters themselves that do the switching but the capability built into connected equipment. In addition, I think all recent solar inverters are designed to reduce their output if the mains frequency rises significantly.

We have a mark 1 Smart Meter installed in 2014 iirc. Never worked since we changed suppliers in 2015. All readings manual...

I was fortunate that Octopus could get the data for my Mk 1 meter installed by Ovo. I checked this before switching.

[ColinB]

Back to the electric cars topic...

AutoExpress is saying virtually the same as the Which? report on the public charging infrastructure:
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/354562/3-word-verdict-uk-public-electric-car-charging-too-bloody-complicated

This also contains a link to a DoT consultation, so there's an opportunity to make your views known to officialdom.

[culzean]

It tells you everything you need to know about electric vehicles when governments have to pass laws to make people adopt them. If they were affordable and easy to use people would be flocking to get them... but that is clearly not the case.  It is normally market forces that decide whether products are adopted by the public,  not legal force..... the phrase 'build it and they will come' does not seem to apply to BEV.   At the moment BEV are a novelty, and a novelty that is not anywhere near as adaptable as ICE vehicles ( towing etc. )- and come at a price not many can afford for a second car, but the more affordable ones do not as yet  have decent range ( 24KW Leaf anyone ? ), and longer journeys can be fraught with frustration and take noticeably longer than with an ICE.  Any motorway journey at decent speed will see range tumble, and charging costs on motorway are not cheap, they have a captive market.

[peteo48]

Back to the electric cars topic...

AutoExpress is saying virtually the same as the Which? report on the public charging infrastructure:
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/354562/3-word-verdict-uk-public-electric-car-charging-too-bloody-complicated

This also contains a link to a DoT consultation, so there's an opportunity to make your views known to officialdom.

Yes - I've written to my MP about the issue. On a Facebook Forum I shared details of the Which report and got a response from a chap who chairs a "sustainability forum" in my local area. He has invited me to take part in a discussion about EVs and the issues around charging. He said he is not interested, particularly, in the views of EV drivers because he says they often tend to minimise the difficulties (I guess justifying their decision). They are particularly interested in people who actively considered buying an EV (like me before my present car) but who decided not to.

I suspect it will be a "zoom" discussion so I'll have to get my head round that

[peteo48]

It tells you everything you need to know about electric vehicles when governments have to pass laws to make people adopt them. If they were affordable and easy to use people would be flocking to get them... but that is clearly not the case.  It is normally market forces that decide whether products are adopted by the public,  not legal force..... the phrase 'build it and they will come' does not seem to apply to BEV.   At the moment BEV are a novelty, and a novelty that is not anywhere near as adaptable as ICE vehicles ( towing etc. )- and come at a price not many can afford for a second car, but the more affordable ones do not as yet  have decent range ( 24KW Leaf anyone ? ), and longer journeys can be fraught with frustration and take noticeably longer than with an ICE.  Any motorway journey at decent speed will see range tumble, and charging costs on motorway are not cheap, they have a captive market.

A lot in that. Anecdotal I know but, amongst my acquaintances, I would say that around 90% are very wary of EVs. My new neighbour, who runs a garage, told me many of his customers have said how worried they are about being forced into buying an EV.

For me it's the laughable state of the charging infrastructure in much of the UK. I identified 6 journeys that we make annually (pre Covid obvs) which would be either very difficult or flat out impossible in any EV I could afford. There is the added issue of ending up with a betamax situation if/when a standard charging plug is adopted. All these issues can be sorted but I detect a lack of urgency which, given the 2030 deadline, is unforgiveable.

It's quite simple really. It should be possible to undertake any journey and be 100% guaranteed that there will be a working charger should you need to recharge on the way.