Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 771244 times)

John Ratsey

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1395 on: February 04, 2020, 05:07:05 PM »
2035 is 15 years away and not, IMO, an ambitious target. Car manufacturers are already moving quickly down the EV road. It's the vans and lorries which need to catch up. Hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles are already in production on a small scale but are expensive.

China is investing heavily in electric vehicles. However, at the same time the country is currently building over 100GW of addtional coal fired power stations so there's no benefit (more likely a disbenefit) in terms of CO2 production and the current objective appears to be reduction in pollution in the urban centres.

Regarding the problem of power needed for charging, the vast majority of drivers don't do 200 miles/day on a regular basis. This majority can make do with lower powered chargers for their daily requirements but will also need access to more powerful charging when they make longer trips. Assuming 4 miles/kWh, 50 miles/day and 90% charging efficiency, the daily charging is about 14kWh. This can be achieved using a relatively modest charger (eg 3.5kW for 4 hours). Nonetheless, 10 million vehicles all drawing 3.5kW at the same time is 35GW but that could be easily spread over twice the hours during the night. However, increasing night time demand will eliminate the currently available cheap electricity. Hydrogen production will probably also need electricity but there's potential for storage to minimise power demand when it's scarce.

A related issue is that sooner or later government has to change the taxation system to compensate for the revenue lost as vehicle sales reduce. Road pricing is the obvious solution and this may have the side-effect of encouraging people to travel fewer miles. Ultimately, less travel is what will help the planet. We need to get the politicians to ensure closer proximity between homes and jobs.
2022 HR-V Elegance, previously 2020 Jazz Crosstar

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1396 on: February 04, 2020, 05:50:53 PM »
Good post John.

Very quick "fag packet" calculation based on UK average mileage per annum of 8,000 miles shows that an older Nissan Leaf would need charging 2 or 3 times a week at the absolute outside and, the newer 200 plus mile EVs about once a week.

So the nightmare scenario of 30 million EVs all plugging in at teatime simply will not happen. Clearly there are capacity issues but they may be exaggerated.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1397 on: February 04, 2020, 06:26:32 PM »
Fully Charged spoke to a heid yin from the National Grid a while back and he was quite confident that the grid would cope with no issues. I'll try and find the video.

Kenneve

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1398 on: February 04, 2020, 06:45:27 PM »
If you look at the Gridwatch website right now, 18,25 hrs GMT you will see that UK power demand is 45.7 Gw approaching the orange band on the meter, certainly not much leeway for the additional consumption of millions of electric cars.
Even in the dead of night, it rarely drops to less that about 30 Gw, so where is the additional 35 Gw that John talks about going to come from?

To confirm my earlier comment about household power capacity, just have look at the main supply fuse in your house.
I doubt very it will be much more than 100 amps rating or 25 Kw.

Don’t get me wrong, I applaud the move to electric cars, I’m just concerned about how we are going to charge then, without the almost inevitable power cuts.

JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1399 on: February 04, 2020, 07:17:59 PM »


Don’t get me wrong, I applaud the move to electric cars, I’m just concerned about how we are going to charge then, without the almost inevitable power cuts.
Some information in these two articles

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/bev-sales-on-track-to-top-national-grid-projections-1

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1400 on: February 04, 2020, 08:50:43 PM »
I doubt very it will be much more than 100 amps rating or 25 Kw.
A home charger is a maximum of 7.2 kW - same as an electric shower. Anything higher than that (Fast Chargers and Rapid Chargers) are industrial installations and not for home use.

guest4871

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1401 on: February 04, 2020, 09:49:55 PM »
If you look at the Gridwatch website right now, 18,25 hrs GMT you will see that UK power demand is 45.7 Gw approaching the orange band on the meter, certainly not much leeway for the additional consumption of millions of electric cars.
Even in the dead of night, it rarely drops to less that about 30 Gw, so where is the additional 35 Gw that John talks about going to come from?

To confirm my earlier comment about household power capacity, just have look at the main supply fuse in your house.
I doubt very it will be much more than 100 amps rating or 25 Kw.

Don’t get me wrong, I applaud the move to electric cars, I’m just concerned about how we are going to charge then, without the almost inevitable power cuts.

Not forgetting that by 2035 we may well also need electric power generation to run up to 18 250 mph electric trains per hour between London and Birmingham. I hope  someone has thought this through.

madasafish

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1402 on: February 05, 2020, 09:56:47 AM »
I doubt very it will be much more than 100 amps rating or 25 Kw.
A home charger is a maximum of 7.2 kW - same as an electric shower. Anything higher than that (Fast Chargers and Rapid Chargers) are industrial installations and not for home use.

Few people shower for more than 15 minutes.
A 7KW charger will take over 3 hours to charge a 24KW depleted battery.


The KEY is the length of time in use...

Today Gridwatch show 40GW  + demand and renewables generate 19% (vs normal 30-40$). Low wind /solar...



Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1403 on: February 05, 2020, 10:09:58 AM »
I doubt very it will be much more than 100 amps rating or 25 Kw.
A home charger is a maximum of 7.2 kW - same as an electric shower. Anything higher than that (Fast Chargers and Rapid Chargers) are industrial installations and not for home use.

Few people shower for more than 15 minutes.
A 7KW charger will take over 3 hours to charge a 24KW depleted battery.


The KEY is the length of time in use...
No. We are talking instantaneous figures here. As regards the capacity of the house electrical system it is not wired to allow you to use the shower for 15 minutes then the wiring overheats. My wiring will allow me to run the shower 24/7 so it doesn't matter whether it is the shower that is running or the EV charger.
It is only the grid capacity where the total amount of energy could become an issue. And there will have to be some solution worked out to accommodate that.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1404 on: February 05, 2020, 10:11:19 AM »
Looking forward to our lengthy test drive this afternoon. Pity, it is a rather grey day.

madasafish

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1405 on: February 05, 2020, 03:21:01 PM »
I doubt very it will be much more than 100 amps rating or 25 Kw.
A home charger is a maximum of 7.2 kW - same as an electric shower. Anything higher than that (Fast Chargers and Rapid Chargers) are industrial installations and not for home use.

Few people shower for more than 15 minutes.
A 7KW charger will take over 3 hours to charge a 24KW depleted battery.


The KEY is the length of time in use...
No. We are talking instantaneous figures here. As regards the capacity of the house electrical system it is not wired to allow you to use the shower for 15 minutes then the wiring overheats. My wiring will allow me to run the shower 24/7 so it doesn't matter whether it is the shower that is running or the EV charger.
It is only the grid capacity where the total amount of energy could become an issue. And there will have to be some solution worked out to accommodate that.

Our house was rewired in 1977. The circuit for the electric showers is 40Amp wiring... 

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1406 on: February 05, 2020, 03:25:49 PM »
Our house was rewired in 1977. The circuit for the electric showers is 40Amp wiring...
10 kW.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1407 on: February 05, 2020, 03:28:19 PM »
Took my good lady for her test run today and she loved the car. The battery was fully charged so I decided to do my usual Saturday run. I had read on another forum that it is more efficient to use the heated seats, rather than the cabin heater so this was what we did. We hadn’t gone far before we were too warm so switched them off. I had asked the salesman about the regen settings (he had to look up the handbook) so I used maximum regen where I would have used Deceleration Fuel Cut Off and minimum regen where I normally coast. I got as far as the Gogar roundabout when I chickened out. I still had plenty of range left but “Range anxiety” kicked in and I started to worry about the battery going flat before I completed the journey. I had no idea where to find a public charger had I needed one. I went round the Gogar roundabout and returned home.
The trip was very enjoyable and Madge was ready to buy the car there and then but I am not sure. The round trip to Mum’s is 80 miles and when I got back to dealer’s I still had enough range left, but yesterday I did the same trip, but earlier in the day, and sat for three miles in queueing traffic (12 mpg on ScanGauge). I am concerned that the 24 kWh battery may not be sufficient for a winter return trip in traffic. I could always connect it up at Mum’s, using the 13A charging cable but a couple of hours on that probably wouldn’t make much difference. I’ll have to give this some thought and a bit more research.
Once we move over to Danderhall the car would be great. With no more than 20 miles motoring (if that) in a day and a 7.2 kW home charger I would be made. I will either search for a 30 kWh Leaf or hang off until we make the move. The Jazz is MOT’d until June so still a bit time to make my mind up.


culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1408 on: February 05, 2020, 03:48:41 PM »
I still had plenty of range left but “Range anxiety” kicked in and I started to worry about the battery going flat before I completed the journey.

pretty much every BEV car test / review I have read has mentioned 'range anxiety' - something you don't get with ICE because the fuel gauge is actually measuring a real substance and not 'electrickery', using coulomb counting the margin of error is still quite large,  so the battery gauge  is described as a 'guessometer' - a few even described the battery as a 'rubber bucket' where you never really knew how much range was actually left ---
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1409 on: February 05, 2020, 04:23:54 PM »
I get range anxiety as soon as my low fuel light comes on. I go to the first garage I come to. If I had the car and drove it for a few trips to get an idea of what range I could expect I would be much happier.

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