Author Topic: Electric cars  (Read 771321 times)

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2340 on: August 11, 2021, 10:11:52 AM »
200 miles of driving an EV, charged from fossil fuel electricity produces less CO2 than an ICE due to power station technology and efficiencies.

John Ratsey

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2341 on: August 11, 2021, 11:22:53 AM »
I was surprised by your website at how much difference there was in the generation mix between regions.
Also a big variation according to time of day and the extent to which renewables can meet the total demand.

200 miles of driving an EV, charged from fossil fuel electricity produces less CO2 than an ICE due to power station technology and efficiencies.
Combined cycle gas turbine generation efficiency can get above 60% https://www.energylivenews.com/2018/11/06/work-underway-on-uks-most-efficient-ccgt-power-station/ . However, deduct network losses (~8%) and then battery losses (~another 8%) and you end up below 50%. Coal-fired generation, of which the UK has had about 1GW running most days this summer, is below 40% efficiency.
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JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2342 on: August 11, 2021, 11:35:32 AM »
I was surprised by your website at how much difference there was in the generation mix between regions.
Also a big variation according to time of day and the extent to which renewables can meet the total demand.
Thanks. I'll keep an eye on it.
With development of more renewables this will decrease.
Storage is the key.

embee

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2343 on: August 11, 2021, 11:47:12 AM »
200 miles of driving an EV, charged from fossil fuel electricity produces less CO2 than an ICE due to power station technology and efficiencies.
True, but not by as much as when the average CO2 from electricity generation is used as the comparator rather than the marginal rate gas fired power station CO2.
As per my ramblings earlier, all the renewable/nuclear output is used for the fixed consumption (industry/domestic), Any additional demand (charging EVs) comes from gas, full stop. Today's EV thus produces something like 3/4 the CO2 of an ICE vehicle, better but not the panacea the public are led to believe.

Bazzzer

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2344 on: August 11, 2021, 05:46:53 PM »
If they are charged from the domestic mains they can be charged overnight at off-peak rates  when there is a low demand for electricity...

If millions are charging their batteries overnight, can you be sure that there will still be a "low demand for electricity"?

hemming

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2345 on: August 11, 2021, 07:53:19 PM »
Did anyone read an article on the Daily Telegraph website today which suggested it was more green to keep a diesel car than to buy a new car? If so did the item validate the proposition in your your view please?  I don't want to subscribe to to find out...

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2346 on: August 11, 2021, 08:37:51 PM »
Did anyone read an article on the Daily Telegraph website today which suggested it was more green to keep a diesel car than to buy a new car? If so did the item validate the proposition in your your view please?  I don't want to subscribe to to find out...

I didn't read that article but I have read lots of other sources especially when I was actively considering getting an EV. One article I did see recently was a chap who had a 19 year old Saab and he asked whether it would be "greener" to retain that car rather than buying a new EV. His argument was that there are a lot of embodied emissions in any car, indeed slightly more in an EV. By purchasing a new car he would be effectively bringing a new car into the world (or contributing to the demand for such cars) and it would take many years for the embodied emissions to be paid down as it were. The EV expert he was talking to reached the entirely sensible conclusion that it all depended on how many miles the old car was doing. In this case it was only 3,000 a year so the argument for keeping the Saab was solid in his view. If he was doing an average mileage, say 9,000 per annum, the calculation might be different.

Embodied emissions is a disputed area. Mike Berners Lee makes the case that embodied emissions are frequently underestimated and that the CO2 impact of bringing a new vehicle - EV or ICE - is often underestimated because only factory emissions are taken into account but bringing a new car to market involves everything from mining the iron to the bosses company mobile phone.

I take the view that my mileage of 2,000 per annum (or thereabouts) in a small, newish petrol car makes any argument for me buying a new EV on environmental grounds null and void.

Old diesels are a different matter on air quality grounds.

Jocko

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2347 on: August 11, 2021, 08:40:52 PM »
I would like an EV but not on environmental grounds.

peteo48

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2348 on: August 11, 2021, 08:49:06 PM »
I would like an EV but not on environmental grounds.

I think I'm the same Jocko if truth be told. I drove my pal's 24 kwh Nissan Leaf a couple of years ago and the driving experience is just so much better, especially the instant torque.

JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2349 on: August 11, 2021, 09:23:16 PM »
If they are charged from the domestic mains they can be charged overnight at off-peak rates  when there is a low demand for electricity...

If millions are charging their batteries overnight, can you be sure that there will still be a "low demand for electricity"?
A good point. The  objective is to even out the demand but there may have to be some smart metering involved if everybody wanted to charge at the same time
It would not be necessary to charge EVs every night or keep it topped up. How often do you refill your ICE?

JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2350 on: August 11, 2021, 09:38:10 PM »
Did anyone read an article on the Daily Telegraph website today which suggested it was more green to keep a diesel car than to buy a new car? If so did the item validate the proposition in your your view please?  I don't want to subscribe to to find out...

I didn't read that article but I have read lots of other sources especially when I was actively considering getting an EV. One article I did see recently was a chap who had a 19 year old Saab and he asked whether it would be "greener" to retain that car rather than buying a new EV. His argument was that there are a lot of embodied emissions in any car, indeed slightly more in an EV. By purchasing a new car he would be effectively bringing a new car into the world (or contributing to the demand for such cars) and it would take many years for the embodied emissions to be paid down as it were. The EV expert he was talking to reached the entirely sensible conclusion that it all depended on how many miles the old car was doing. In this case it was only 3,000 a year so the argument for keeping the Saab was solid in his view. If he was doing an average mileage, say 9,000 per annum, the calculation might be different.

Embodied emissions is a disputed area. Mike Berners Lee makes the case that embodied emissions are frequently underestimated and that the CO2 impact of bringing a new vehicle - EV or ICE - is often underestimated because only factory emissions are taken into account but bringing a new car to market involves everything from mining the iron to the bosses company mobile phone.

I take the view that my mileage of 2,000 per annum (or thereabouts) in a small, newish petrol car makes any argument for me buying a new EV on environmental grounds null and void.

Old diesels are a different matter on air quality grounds.
That's effectively my way of thinking too.
Barring unforeseen circumstances, I've got no intention of selling the Jazz until it rusts away.
By then there may well be improvements in EVs and a bigger market in second hand EVs.
There again the Jazz might outlast me but if not my next car will be an EV.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 09:44:13 PM by JimSh »

richardfrost

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2351 on: August 12, 2021, 12:34:27 PM »
Recycling vehicles at the other end of the scale...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-57901893

I wonder if there is a version of this work that can be done to regular vehicles at a sensible price?

John Ratsey

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2352 on: August 12, 2021, 08:38:31 PM »
It would not be necessary to charge EVs every night or keep it topped up. How often do you refill your ICE?
How many vehicles have fuel tanks that needed refilling at 200 miles or less? My old Austin A35 was one example have had better range.

We can work out the extra load on the grid by taking the average daily miles driven, assuming 3.5 miles per kWh and an 8 hour charging period. https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/mobility provides some basic numbers so, by my reckoning, assuming 35 million cars & van averaging 20 miles/day results in 200 GWh or electricity or 25 GWh over an 8 hour period. That excludes HGVs and buses.
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JimSh

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2353 on: August 12, 2021, 10:57:19 PM »
Jings that's an eye-opener. I keep thinking there's a flaw somewhere in the calculation but I haven't seen it yet.
There can't be 35 million cars on the road for 20 mls for 67 million people but I suppose it averages out. I can see me waking in the middle of the night with my head going round.

culzean

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2354 on: August 13, 2021, 09:04:31 AM »
It would not be necessary to charge EVs every night or keep it topped up. How often do you refill your ICE?
How many vehicles have fuel tanks that needed refilling at 200 miles or less? My old Austin A35 was one example have had better range.

We can work out the extra load on the grid by taking the average daily miles driven, assuming 3.5 miles per kWh and an 8 hour charging period. https://www.racfoundation.org/motoring-faqs/mobility provides some basic numbers so, by my reckoning, assuming 35 million cars & van averaging 20 miles/day results in 200 GWh or electricity or 25 GWh over an 8 hour period. That excludes HGVs and buses.

Add in the extra power required for heating ' all electric' houses and operating businesses without gas or fossil fuels.... better open some more coal mines....
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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