Author Topic: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch  (Read 23952 times)

embee

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2021, 12:48:33 PM »
.... low octane fuel actually has more energy content than high octane because the whole idea of octane improvers is to be hard to ignite / burn and slow down the burn rate and stop knocking, pinking ......
I would slightly deviate ....... I apologise for being too pedantic.

Typical premium 97/98 RON E5 usually has a slightly higher calorific value than a regular 95RON E5 fuel, both down to specific value by weight and higher density, so something like 1.5% more energy per litre (how we buy it). Comparing different ethanol blends is a slightly different issue.
I can't find direct info today, but referring to my old Bosch Automotive Handbook, the values given are (E5)
             density (kg/L)       Lower calorific value (MJ/kg)
95RON    0.715-0.765             42.7
98RON    0.730-0.780             43.5

E10 will be slightly lower calorific value than the equivalent RON E5.

Knock/pinking is down to the fuel molecules breaking down into more reactive forms (significantly hydrogen peroxide H2O2) under high temp/press ahead of the flame front, which can then spontaneously react, not needing an ionising source (flame/spark). Higher octane petrol doesn't (usually, intrinsically) have a slower burn rate (rate of heat release) than lower octane versions, it is just less prone to the relevant breakdown/transformation/auto-reaction. There's some discussion and investigation of this described in https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.energyfuels.0c03883
looking at the octane sensitivity (RON vs MON) due to the different transformations at different temperatures. It's a complex chemistry business, something I'm aware of rather than knowledgeable about. As an indication of the complexity, this is an extract ....

Radical pool build-up due to chemical reactions can be used as a good marker for differing chemistry at each heat release stage. As shown by Mehl et al.,(41) distinct chemical reactions are responsible for low-, intermediate-, and high-temperature chemistry. Some commonly used markers were investigated for n-heptane at 700, 800, 900, and 1000 K, and shown in Figure 13. For comparison, iso-octane values were also given at 700 K. Initial pressure was fixed at 25 atm for these figures. As expected, heat released due to low-temperature chemistry decreased with increasing temperature. Heat release in the low-temperature region was followed closely by generation and destruction of OH radicals, as propagation reactions favored the formation of HO2. The HO2 formation led to H abstraction, causing H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) formation and delaying the main ignition process. H2O2 decomposed to form two OH radicals, instigating the high-temperature heat release event. The decomposition of H2O2 in the figures can be treated as the point of autoignition (end of ITHR). Also, from this figure, H2O2 and HCHO (formaldehyde) can be treated as markers for ITHR. The heat release rate was magnified 100 times for the iso-octane case to show the profile legibly. iso-Octane is known to exhibit a more pronounced NTC behavior because of large intermediate-temperature heat release. Although negligible LTHR was observed, the measure of H2O2 and HCHO was still considerable, signaling a relatively longer second-stage delay from intermediate-temperature chemistry.

Again, apologies for being pedantic, your comments are always appreciated.

Saycol

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2021, 11:56:56 AM »
So, “regular unleaded” is being replaced with E10 that contains up to 10% renewable ethanol. E5 will still be available as a “premium unleaded” which typically costs 10p or more extra per litre.
The Jazz runs on E5 or E10. I was wondering what forum members will choose when they fill up in September?

Jeff15

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2021, 12:29:50 PM »
I am unaware of these changes, please explain.

peteo48

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2021, 12:36:37 PM »
From 1st September, standard 95 Octane (currently 95% petrol and 5% ethanol know as E5) will become E10 - 90% petrol and 10% ethanol. Some cars, although not the Jazz, will still need E5. This means they will have to buy Premium Fuel at 98 or 99 RON which will remain E5. Most of these cars are classic cars and some older models.

There is some evidence that E10 might cause a very slight increase, about 1%, in fuel consumption.

Jazzik

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2021, 01:11:17 PM »
Note that E5 has a maximum of 5% ethanol and E10 a maximum of 10%.
Which means you might be fueling expensive E5 with 4.99% ethanol and E10 with 5.01% ethanol...  ;)

If nothing goes right, go left!

nowster

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2021, 01:26:50 PM »
One thing to be aware of is that E10 is more likely to separate in storage (or a fuel tank) than E5. This will particularly affect cars that don't get filled up that often. (eg. plug in hybrids.)

Expatman

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2021, 02:15:59 PM »
It will be interesting to check mpg of E5 v E10. E5 will be "Super" blend with higher octane rating - 97-98. I have found with my current petrol car that although Super is 9p more per litre than regular I get 7% better mpg and engine seems smoother with more power. Maybe just me but I can certainly notice the difference.
Whether the difference will be noticeable in an Atkinson cycle engine  with a hybrid power train is another question.

Karoq

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2021, 03:04:14 PM »
I filled up at a Tesco forecourt over a week ago and E10 has already arrived! The petrol nozzles being clearly marked E10 95 octane and E5 97 octane.
Dip Mech Eng (automotive)

Jeff15

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2021, 03:10:41 PM »
Why mend it if it ain't broke..???

Expatman

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2021, 04:35:42 PM »
I filled up at a Tesco forecourt over a week ago and E10 has already arrived! The petrol nozzles being clearly marked E10 95 octane and E5 97 octane.
Interesting to see if you notice any difference in mpg or engine note.

E27006

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2021, 05:14:44 PM »
I could tell a difference between Tesco Regular and Super with my Nissan Micra,  driving on Regular then onto  a full ltank of Super gave some"interesting " moments when moving off from rest,  the revs soar rapidly as soon as I touch the accelerator pedal withthe Super grade,   the engine pick up from idle rpm ( (not in gear) was so much faster,  there was a need to adjust my  accelarator / clutch technique for moving off from rest.

I had always used Tesco Super but recently changed to Texaco Regular for the Jazz,  I find the engine response is slower than with Tesco Super,   the change is for the better,  I can change gear more easily as it isless "revvy" and easier to synchronise engine revs and clutch engagement in the lower gears without any jerkiness.
I was advised not to use Tesco Regular, it is cheap petrol because it is of the lowest specification capable of passing the regulations for octane etc. The advisor owned a classic car and his car cylinder head and valves clogged up,  he had no issues using Texaco fuel

Jocko

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2021, 05:31:00 PM »
I filled up at a Tesco forecourt over a week ago and E10 has already arrived! The petrol nozzles being clearly marked E10 95 octane and E5 97 octane.
The pumps are changed but the petrol hasn't. Not until the first tanker after the 1st of September. 5% and 10% is the MAXIMUM ethanol not the actual amount so it can say E10 but still only contain 5%.

Saycol

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2021, 05:39:23 PM »
According to BP and Shell, E10 has been available outside the U.K. for some time. Any of our Continental friends had any experience of this fuel?

sportse

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2021, 08:26:36 PM »
I’ve always used Shell V Power, which should be a maximum of E5 but could be less.

I used to run it in several hybrid cars before I bought the Jazz and found it makes the engine smoother, particularly useful in an eCVT that can be running at higher constant revs.

It’s also supposed to give you a bit more torque lower down the Rev range so you don’t have to Rev as high.

Expatman

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Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #44 on: August 27, 2021, 10:38:14 PM »
I’ve always used Shell V Power, which should be a maximum of E5 but could be less.

I used to run it in several hybrid cars before I bought the Jazz and found it makes the engine smoother, particularly useful in an eCVT that can be running at higher constant revs.

It’s also supposed to give you a bit more torque lower down the Rev range so you don’t have to Rev as high.
Exactly what I find in conventional engined & gearbox car. Question is with the Atkinson cycle engine whether the extra power will make any difference because in Jazz it is usually charging the battery. Of course when direct connected to drive it might be superior. Someone needs to try it and let us know!

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