Author Topic: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch  (Read 23949 times)

Westy36

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1508
  • Country: gb
  • Fuel economy: Extremely good !!
  • My Honda: 2013 Jazz 1.4 ES Silver
E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« on: February 25, 2021, 10:10:31 AM »
News announced today. It's not going to affect any Honda Jazz, but if you have other cars it could do.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-set-for-september-2021-launch

List of petrol vehicles compatible with using “E10” https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/130329_%28revised%29_ALL_ACEA_SAAB_JAMA_E10_COMPATIBILITY.pdf

Johncb500

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 213
  • Country: gb
  • Honda owner since 1971,on 2 and 4 wheels
  • My Honda: Honda Jazz EX 2012-CB500/4 1974
Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2021, 10:25:36 AM »
This is a backward step.

Not only does it take land space that could be used to grow food.

It is less efficient. Guestimated fuel consumption will drop from mid 50s to high 40s.with corresponding loss of power.

Vehicles with steel tanks are at risk of rust and leakage, as E10 absorbs water.

It also rots O rings.

Its like the electric car red herring.

The way forward is fuel cell technology.



Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk


peteo48

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2689
  • Country: gb
  • I have entered the Jazz Age
  • Fuel economy:
  • My Honda: 2021 Honda Jazz Mk4 1.5 i-MMD EX
Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2021, 11:08:23 AM »
Yes - I've always been sceptical of using food to power anything. I can see a case for using things like old cooking fats and certain types of biomass but not food.

TnTkr

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 650
  • Country: fi
  • My Honda: 2019 GK5 Jazz 1.5 Dynamic 6MT
Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2021, 11:56:36 AM »
In Finland we have had E10 for ten years now. Despite lots of debate back then there has been practically no problems with it. Of course some cars are instructed to use E5 either due to the ethanol amount or due to E5 having higher octane number. Increasing part of the ethanol used as fuel is made or process or community waste, but I couldn't find the percentage at the moment.

My personal opinion is, that using ethanol as fuel in existing conventional combustion engine cars is much better solution than manufacturing new battery powered cars. If I had a car that could be converted to use E85, I'd do it right away, but unfortunately it's not possible on Jazz direct injection engine.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 12:15:28 PM by TnTkr »

embee

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 808
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 2018 Jazz SE CVT
Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2021, 12:19:31 PM »
As TnTkr suggests, it's more fuss than reality. Normal pump petrol has been allowed to contain up to 5% ethanol without labelling for years and years. E10 has been used in other markets for at least a decade.
No vehicle manufactured in the last 20yrs or so should have any real issue with E10, the industry has known about it and engineered systems accordingly.
Certainly there can be issues with older vehicles, but they aren't major in most cases. There can be problems with some copper based alloys (brasses) and some die-cast stuff, and some rubbers don't take kindly but any rubber fuel system component in the last 20yrs will be absolutely fine, the specific materials used are selected for resistance to the fuels in use.
Fuel consumption is hardly affected in my experience of using E10 on the Continent, you'd have to do a careful back-to-back test to measure anything much. Ethanol has about 2/3 the energy content per litre compared to typical gasoline (21MJ/L vs 32MJ/L taking density into account, 27MJ/kg vs 43MJ/kg), so in theory replacing 5% (additional) of the gasoline with ethanol will reduce the energy content of the mixture by less than 2%. That sort of fuel economy change is usually barely noticeable.

Ethanol does combine with water to some extent, but this can actually be a useful characteristic in that it "de-waters" the system. Water gets into the system anyway, and with no de-watering agents it can form water droplets which can cause localised corrosion effects. The ethanol will not make more water get into the fuel system in your car, it gets there anyway, best to purge it through.

There will be a "protected" grade of E5 (or less) for those vehicles which should not use E10.

The arguments for/against will go on for years, much like removing lead. World political aspects are another matter altogether.

Westy36

  • Topic Starter
  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1508
  • Country: gb
  • Fuel economy: Extremely good !!
  • My Honda: 2013 Jazz 1.4 ES Silver
Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2021, 08:28:34 PM »
My MK1 Octi had many tankfulls of E10 over the years on its numerous Euro trips. I never noticed any difference at all, and given how well I know the car, I would have noticed.

In South America, Brasil especially, they have been using E fuel for decades.


https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1092181_a-brief-history-of-ethanol-in-brazil

monkeydave

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1010
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 68 Plate Jazz S White Orchid Pearl
Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2021, 10:25:33 PM »
News announced today. It's not going to affect any Honda Jazz, but if you have other cars it could do.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-set-for-september-2021-launch

List of petrol vehicles compatible with using “E10” https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/130329_%28revised%29_ALL_ACEA_SAAB_JAMA_E10_COMPATIBILITY.pdf

thing is grant shapps cant see a problem with E28 as Brazil uses it, this plank doesn't know much about cars as every one will need replacing as no car in the uk can use E28. even california uses E10. the sooner these idiots are gone the better. E10 should be the last change to uk fuel we see but they will still try more and more crap


and by 2030 they want europe to be using E20 and honda cant use that so what then? scrap all the cars in the country? they are really stupid
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 02:28:47 AM by monkeydave »

guest9236

  • Guest
Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2021, 10:48:31 AM »
News announced today. It's not going to affect any Honda Jazz, but if you have other cars it could do.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-set-for-september-2021-launch

List of petrol vehicles compatible with using “E10” https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/130329_%28revised%29_ALL_ACEA_SAAB_JAMA_E10_COMPATIBILITY.pdf

thing is grant shapps cant see a problem with E28 as Brazil uses it, this plank doesn't know much about cars as every one will need replacing as no car in the uk can use E28. even california uses E10. the sooner these idiots are gone the better. E10 should be the last change to uk fuel we see but they will still try more and more crap


and by 2030 they want europe to be using E20 and honda cant use that so what then? scrap all the cars in the country? they are really stupid

They are Not so much stupid as Crafty as a weasel,when  or if these cars are scrapped, the alternative is electric,Bingo.

Westy36

  • Topic Starter
  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1508
  • Country: gb
  • Fuel economy: Extremely good !!
  • My Honda: 2013 Jazz 1.4 ES Silver
Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2021, 11:53:03 AM »
thing is grant shapps cant see a problem with E28 as Brazil uses it, this plank doesn't know much about cars as every one will need replacing as no car in the uk can use E28. even california uses E10. the sooner these idiots are gone the better. E10 should be the last change to uk fuel we see but they will still try more and more crap


and by 2030 they want europe to be using E20 and honda cant use that so what then? scrap all the cars in the country? they are really stupid
E20 by 2030 ?? Where did you find that out? Thanks.

monkeydave

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1010
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 68 Plate Jazz S White Orchid Pearl
Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2021, 12:51:58 PM »

E20 by 2030 ?? Where did you find that out? Thanks.
[/quote]

it was just europe from 2030, but like idiots we would have to follow

‘The conclusion we have reached is that all the vehicles coming onto the market and those since 2011 should be able to handle fuels with up to 20% ethanol,’ said Ortwin Costenoble, a senior standardisation consultant at the Royal Netherlands Standardization Institute (NEN), which led the project. ‘We were working on the basis that in 2030, countries would adopt E20 as the main source of fuel.’

bloody idiots its E10 max not E15 or E20 this better not come in over in the UK

https://horizon-magazine.eu/article/why-raising-alcohol-content-europe-s-fuels-could-reduce-carbon-emissions.html
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 12:54:37 PM by monkeydave »

Westy36

  • Topic Starter
  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1508
  • Country: gb
  • Fuel economy: Extremely good !!
  • My Honda: 2013 Jazz 1.4 ES Silver
Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2021, 05:27:59 PM »
I'm not convinced on the rise of E fuels being the saviour emissions wise. The EU, indeed the world, would do a lot better looking at both the marine/shipping and the aviation industries. There are much bigger emissions benefits to be made there.

I've just had a read of the link to Horizon magazine. The project quoted is working on the basis of cars 2011> be ok to use E20 from 2030. Well at that point the 2011 car will be 19yrs old. Actualy, that doesn't sound that dramatic to me. Average car life has to be less than 19yrs anyway!

Obviously there needs to be a source of fuel for cars that need a lower E content, or some form of additive as there is for lead free fuel and classic cars. Time will tell. I'm sure there were people years ago saying taking lead out of fuel was madness.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 05:35:26 PM by Westy36 »

monkeydave

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1010
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 68 Plate Jazz S White Orchid Pearl
Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2021, 05:59:09 PM »
I'm not convinced on the rise of E fuels being the saviour emissions wise. The EU, indeed the world, would do a lot better looking at both the marine/shipping and the aviation industries. There are much bigger emissions benefits to be made there.

I've just had a read of the link to Horizon magazine. The project quoted is working on the basis of cars 2011> be ok to use E20 from 2030. Well at that point the 2011 car will be 19yrs old. Actualy, that doesn't sound that dramatic to me. Average car life has to be less than 19yrs anyway!

Obviously there needs to be a source of fuel for cars that need a lower E content, or some form of additive as there is for lead free fuel and classic cars. Time will tell. I'm sure there were people years ago saying taking lead out of fuel was madness.

trouble is cars made from 2015 (eg Mk3 jazz launch) should have been made to take e20 and not just e10 as they are with our cars and 2030 no new petrol cars will be sold and i was hoping to keep my car long into the 2030's as im not going electric

they are really eager to go e20 even though no car in the uk can take it, they got away with e10 from e5 as only 600,000 cars cant take it and half of them are classics and half just old cars
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 06:17:27 PM by monkeydave »

embee

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 808
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 2018 Jazz SE CVT
Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2021, 09:56:53 PM »
There is a very high probability (effectively certain I think) that a "protected grade" E5 will be available for some years to come, it may be only as a premium octane grade but there will be something.
I'm not sure what the latest is, but this is one summary (dated 2020) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/940334/e10-petrol-and-consumer-protection-response-to-2018-call-for-evidence.pdf

Unfortunately you can't use any sort of "additive" to remove what is already in there.

monkeydave

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1010
  • Country: gb
  • My Honda: 68 Plate Jazz S White Orchid Pearl
Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2021, 11:11:59 PM »
There is a very high probability (effectively certain I think) that a "protected grade" E5 will be available for some years to come, it may be only as a premium octane grade but there will be something.
I'm not sure what the latest is, but this is one summary (dated 2020) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/940334/e10-petrol-and-consumer-protection-response-to-2018-call-for-evidence.pdf

Unfortunately you can't use any sort of "additive" to remove what is already in there.

yeah they said e5 super plus will be available for 5 years and then reviewed again, lets hope they keep it for the classic cars

at the moment there is no car that can run E20 in the uk the most they can do is E10 so they might just hold off on E20 after 2030 i cant imagine car manufactures will change the cars coming out as there is only 9 years left before they cant sell them here

myself i will be switching to super plus 99 E5, i know its a little more but i will get more mpg instead of less mpg with E10 for the same money and less corrosion and fuel seperation with water absorbtion

TnTkr

  • Approved Member
  • *
  • Posts: 650
  • Country: fi
  • My Honda: 2019 GK5 Jazz 1.5 Dynamic 6MT
Re: E10 petrol set for September 2021 launch
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2021, 06:23:07 AM »
I'd wish more flexfuel cars to come into European markets. In Finland E85 fuel is the only way to avoid funding Russian and Middle East governments when filling the tank. Ethanol is mostly domestic product here. I know it's different in UK, as you use also North Sea oil.

Tags:
 

Back to top