That brakes coming on thing in that situation is a bit worrying. Glad that you are otherwise enjoying the new Jazz. Everything I've read implies that it is a step change for the better especially the extra torque.
Did the driver operate the direction indicator or not? If the indicators are operated prior to, and as a sequence of the manoeuvre, will the safety system still intervene?
That brakes coming on thing in that situation is a bit worrying. Glad that you are otherwise enjoying the new Jazz. Everything I've read implies that it is a step change for the better especially the extra torque.
In the situation described, a normal situation of a steering manoeuvre initiated by the driver to pass a stationary parked vehicle, the safety system invoked an unwanted intervention to the manoeuvre. Did the driver operate the direction indicator or not? If the indicators are operated prior to, and as a sequence of the manoeuvre, will the safety system still intervene?
That sounds like a scary experience. Machine does not know better than the man. I would feel a lot safer with you driving using all those years of experience than I would a computer programme.This is precisely what I used to hear years and years ago, when first ABS then ESP have been put as standard in our cars, from plenty of "experienced drivers" sure to be able to brake and reduce understeer better than a software.
That sounds like a scary experience. Machine does not know better than the man. I would feel a lot safer with you driving using all those years of experience than I would a computer programme.This is precisely what I used to hear years and years ago, when first ABS then ESP have been put as standard in our cars, from plenty of "experienced drivers" sure to be able to brake and reduce understeer better than a software.
I’ld temporarily forgotten what ESP stands for (Electronic Stability Programme), but of course it also means Extrasensory Perception, which seems to be what auto-engineers are trying to replicate in cars!That sounds like a scary experience. Machine does not know better than the man. I would feel a lot safer with you driving using all those years of experience than I would a computer programme.This is precisely what I used to hear years and years ago, when first ABS then ESP have been put as standard in our cars, from plenty of "experienced drivers" sure to be able to brake and reduce understeer better than a software.
I’ld temporarily forgotten what ESP stands for (Electronic Stability Programme), but of course it also means Extrasensory Perception, which seems to be what auto-engineers are trying to replicate in cars!That sounds like a scary experience. Machine does not know better than the man. I would feel a lot safer with you driving using all those years of experience than I would a computer programme.This is precisely what I used to hear years and years ago, when first ABS then ESP have been put as standard in our cars, from plenty of "experienced drivers" sure to be able to brake and reduce understeer better than a software.
Nothing dangerous about EPS or ABS, but all the other c r 4 p ---- :o Drivers just need to pay attention, and all these 'aids' are just having the opposite affect - they make people think they can sit in the back seat and watch a movie...
ABS and EPS were designed to help in emergency situations, but is seems other stuff can cause emergencies....
LKAS is designed for avoiding emergencies, keeping you in your own lane.That sounds like a scary experience. Machine does not know better than the man. I would feel a lot safer with you driving using all those years of experience than I would a computer programme.This is precisely what I used to hear years and years ago, when first ABS then ESP have been put as standard in our cars, from plenty of "experienced drivers" sure to be able to brake and reduce understeer better than a software.
Nothing dangerous about EPS or ABS, but all the other c r 4 p ---- :o Drivers just need to pay attention, and all these 'aids' are just having the opposite affect - they make people think they can sit in the back seat and watch a movie...
ABS and EPS were designed to help in emergency situations, but is seems other stuff can cause emergencies....
All these devices are the things that the MG5 doesn't have, making it "unsafe" in some people's eyes.The MG5 is less safer than other cars better equipped, obvoiusly. A MK4 Jazz will brake itself if the driver will be dazzled by the sun or high beams, while the MG5 will crash.
Now, when I'm on the motorway for example at 05:00, not unusual, with nothing in front or behind but I see a lorry about to join at a junction, I drift into lane 2 to give him a lane to pull into.But surely you should be indicating your move so that the lorry about to join can see that you're moving across?
There is no one to indicate to so I don't. I've made that decision. The last thing I want is the car trying to keep me in lane 1.
There is the lorry, watching in the mirror if you're freeing lane 1.
Now, when I'm on the motorway for example at 05:00, not unusual, with nothing in front or behind but I see a lorry about to join at a junction, I drift into lane 2 to give him a lane to pull into.
There is no one to indicate to so I don't.
To part answer the 2 comments I got.:D In Italy, just after passing the exam for the driving license, you start forgotting rules; the first is "follow speed limits", the second is how to run in a roudabout, the third is "use you direction lights". LKAS and similar devices will help us to be good and polite drivers again. :D
On an uphill slip road, I've seen the lorry top well before he sees me so there is no chance of him seeing my indicators, especially if we are alongside. It's a case of using the situation at the time and you're quite right that there are some situations where indicating is a must/ courteous.
Horses for courses but LKAS holds no prisoners, even with no one else around you must indicate or else.
:D In Italy, just after passing the exam for the driving license, you start forgotting rules; the first is "follow speed limits", the second is how to run in a roudabout, the third is "use you direction lights". LKAS and similar devices will help us to be good and polite drivers again. :DI've driven in Italy before. Enthusiastic would be the best term for the driving! :D
Now there's an accident waiting to happen.
It appears, people with LKAS might be allowed to leave the car in charge https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56906145. Will that be a step backwards for safety?How will LKAS then respond when the driver’s wife says “you’ve chosen the wrong lane again”?
You missed the part about managing a fleet of commoditized autonomous vehicles in oversized urban environnments.
Smart cities does not need humans doing repetitive stupid things.
..........your brain it shrivels up and is in danger of falling out of your ear.
The myth of perfectly safe computer controlled autonomous vehicles that never make a mistake is just that - a myth. Even with stupid, careless human drivers the fatality rate in USA is less than 1.2 per 100,000,000 vehicle miles - that is a hard act to follow for AV.And which is the fatlity rate of autonomous driven vehicles, partially (with safety aids) and full?
Referring to my original post and the need to be able to switch Off these annoying features.Don't worry. I had the same problem. The procedure is described on page 482 of the on-line version of the manual and the confusing part is that you appearing to disable the LKAS but it puts RDMS back in it's cage. It might also disable LKAS - I don't know - which is the silly part as LKAS is a sensible system but RDMS doesn't work on many British roads.
I know how to disable LKAS, but am having trouble in disabling the CMBC & RDMS systems.
Now I know one has to do this for every journey, but I'm having no luck in following the instructions, in the manual.
Can one you Mk4 guys give me a simple blow by blow procedure, for disabling these two systems. Something that is easily done at each start-up?
I must be getting old :-[
I noted the idea behind the 37mph limit was to allow the driver to give control to the car in motorway jams/slow traffic.Neither am I. If the system needs white lines to work then it will struggle in slow moving queuing traffic where all the camera can see is the back of the vehicle in front.
I'm still not convinced.
According to the Daily Telegraph this morning the cost of insuring a self drive car will be prohibitive for years until the insurance industry can properly evaluate and price the risk.
Hopefully not in my lifetime.
But maybe the driver activated it in the wrong conditions, or touched the controls inadvertently etc.etc. This is a lawyers dream of claim and counter claim..........!According to the Daily Telegraph this morning the cost of insuring a self drive car will be prohibitive for years until the insurance industry can properly evaluate and price the risk.
Hopefully not in my lifetime.
Well presumably if an autonomous vehicle has a crash the obvious ones to blame will be the vehicle ma manufacturer.....this could make dieselgate look like a kid's party...
But maybe the driver activated it in the wrong conditions, or touched the controls inadvertently etc.etc. This is a lawyers dream of claim and counter claim..........!According to the Daily Telegraph this morning the cost of insuring a self drive car will be prohibitive for years until the insurance industry can properly evaluate and price the risk.
Hopefully not in my lifetime.
Well presumably if an autonomous vehicle has a crash the obvious ones to blame will be the vehicle ma manufacturer.....this could make dieselgate look like a kid's party...
But in the short term it sounds as if anyone relying on lane keeping assistance and measured cruise control in slow moving traffic then they possibly won’t be insured!According to the Daily Telegraph this morning the cost of insuring a self drive car will be prohibitive for years until the insurance industry can properly evaluate and price the risk.
Hopefully not in my lifetime.
Well presumably if an autonomous vehicle has a crash the obvious ones to blame will be the vehicle ma manufacturer.....this could make dieselgate look like a kid's party...
With fully autonomous vehicles promised there is no driver, no human input except destination address. - you can send empty car to pick kids up from school and bring them home, no longer any need for parent to miss day time TV... You could be drunk in the car and police could not touch you. Mind you, AV as promised will not be available before climate change has killed the planet.
AV as promised will not be available before climate change has killed the planet.
My enjoyment of driving this new Mk4 is being marred by the intervention of 'the gizmos'
By that I mean things like, LKAS, CMBS, RDPS etc. LKAS can be switched Off easily on the steering wheel, but the others ........................?
Like many people of my vintage, I started my motoring life, riding motorbikes, starting with a Dot 197, before moving on the a Matchless 500 twin, didn't quite get to the classic Triumph 650 twin, but that's another story!
Part of the Roadcraft in those days, when negotiating a winding country road, was to attempt to 'straighten out' the bends by hugging the kerb at the apex of a LH bend and moving over towards the white line on a RH bend. (I guess Culzean can identify with that) This is something I have continued to do throughout my motoring life. However, if I try this technique with the Mk4, then an invisible hand grabs the steering wheel to moves me back to the middle, most disconcerting!
Yesterday afternoon I came upon a dead straight section of road, perhaps 1/2 mile long, 30mph, absolutely no other traffic, apart from a solitary parked car, perhaps 250 yds ahead. As I approached the car, I moved out to pass it, when all of a sudden the brakes came On. What's that all about?
I reckon, if a car had been following me closely, it could have resulted in an accident, as there was absolutely no need to brake.
Now the Owners Manual tells be, these functions are switched on by default, every time I start the car.
At the moment I'm not a happy bunny!! Maybe there is a fuse I can pull to disable the these functions permanently?
I should say however, in most other respects, the MK4 is the best Jazz, out of the 6 that I've had.
The issue is that no form of transport is 100% safe, autonomous cars will never achieve 100% safety in use, Human drivers will never achieve 100% safety.
The tipping point is when autonomous cars can match the or exceed the abilities of the human driver.
At which point we have the dilemma, do we ban the human driver on safety grounds or just accept the accident rates of human drivers
My UK supplied mk4 is made in Japan. Unsure if other countries receive cars manufactured in different countries.
My UK supplied mk4 is made in Japan. Unsure if other countries receive cars manufactured in different countries.
+1
My UK supplied mk4 is made in Japan. Unsure if other countries receive cars manufactured in different countries.
Can anyone suggest if it worth to take extra 2 years extended manufacturer warranty and 5 years service plan?I bought the 5 year service deal on my two Jazz’s and thought they were good value (£550 for the Mk 3, bought 5 years ago). I didn't buy the extended warranty for either car. Roadside assistance continued as a result of the dealer service.
thanks
Can anyone suggest if it worth to take extra 2 years extended manufacturer warranty and 5 years service plan?I bought the 5 year service deal on my two Jazz’s and thought they were good value (£550 for the Mk 3, bought 5 years ago). I didn't buy the extended warranty for either car. Roadside assistance continued as a result of the dealer service.
thanks
I had my test drive earlier today. Overall I am quite impressed with Crosstar, very good visibility, car handled very well on the road. I wish it could have been softer on the road. I also noticed when you floor the gas pedal the car accelerate with some delay.Interested in your comment about wishing it was softer on the road. Did you find ride particularly hard and bumpy over pot holes etc and how does it compare to your current car - what is your current car? Reviews I've read are contradictory on ride quality, some say Crosstar is a composed smooth ride, others say it's quite harsh!
Can anyone suggest if it worth to take extra 2 years extended manufacturer warranty and 5 years service plan?
thanks
I bought the 5 year service deal on my two Jazz’s and thought they were good value (£550 for the Mk 3, bought 5 years ago). I didn't buy the extended warranty for either car. Roadside assistance continued as a result of the dealer service.
Interested in your comment about wishing it was softer on the road. Did you find ride particularly hard and bumpy over pot holes etc and how does it compare to your current car - what is your current car? Reviews I've read are contradictory on ride quality, some say Crosstar is a composed smooth ride, others say it's quite harsh!
I bought the 5 year service deal on my two Jazz’s and thought they were good value (£550 for the Mk 3, bought 5 years ago). I didn't buy the extended warranty for either car. Roadside assistance continued as a result of the dealer service.
Thanks for sharing your experienceInterested in your comment about wishing it was softer on the road. Did you find ride particularly hard and bumpy over pot holes etc and how does it compare to your current car - what is your current car? Reviews I've read are contradictory on ride quality, some say Crosstar is a composed smooth ride, others say it's quite harsh!
Road was hard with small potholes, i felt like it was less smooth compare to my Skoda Fabia. Nevertheless I ordered my Crosstar today. Estimation delivery in mid June.
I also noticed when you floor the gas pedal the car accelerate with some delay.That's not normal! In my experience, flooring the accelerator, at least a low or medium speed (up to 40mph) resulted in the vehicle taking off like the proverbial cat. In fact, I've only done it once, early on in my Crosstar ownership, when I wanted to overtake a tractor. The accelerator took me by surprise. Honda's hybrid system lets the battery provide a brief blast of power while the engine gets up to the appropriate speed to become the main power source. It's possible that you encountered a situation when this process didn't work properly. Very low battery charge is one possibility while if the engine was still cold then it could be less responsive.
I also noticed when you floor the gas pedal the car accelerate with some delay.That's not normal! In my experience, flooring the accelerator, at least a low or medium speed (up to 40mph) resulted in the vehicle taking off like the proverbial cat. In fact, I've only done it once, early on in my Crosstar ownership, when I wanted to overtake a tractor. The accelerator took me by surprise. Honda's hybrid system lets the battery provide a brief blast of power while the engine gets up to the appropriate speed to become the main power source. It's possible that you encountered a situation when this process didn't work properly. Very low battery charge is one possibility while if the engine was still cold then it could be less responsive.
Not really surprising, a similar note applied to the previous CVT models.
I don’t know why, the Mk4 has twice the torque and should easily cope with a small camping trailer or similar.
Bad weather - lights, wipers, wet road tyre drag, all have an effect, as does the cold on the low under floor flat fuel tank. Fuel, like other things contracts in the cold so you don't have as much and mpg suffers.
Wow, John I thought I was doing well with my 73 mpg, it seems I have some way to go, well done!That trip (evidence attached) was the best to date by a significant margin and it's just about a real 80 mpg after allowing for the car's 3% optimism. The temperature was such that neither heating nor aircon was needed. I've sometimes seen nearly as good mpg going in one direction but not on the return as weather factors and the altitude difference between the two ends can cause significant differences between the two halves of a return trip.
Down the long run to Sowerby Bridge I set cruise control for the open country parts.
I'm pretty sure I've driven some of them in my previous car!Down the long run to Sowerby Bridge I set cruise control for the open country parts.
Hey, I live above Sowerby Bridge. You should drop by next time you’re over this way. I’ll show you some really hairy roads you can test your car on 😉
Knowing I have plenty of torque from the leccy motor, I've often felt the temptation to leave some four-ringer or Battenburg cake in the dust at traffic lights.
On the minus side it did initially feel heavier than other cars I've driven.
Yep, my driving style has changed dramatically and when I took the test drive I didn't try to see how fast it was or how quick it got there. I just used my typical laid back style and I was very pleasantly surprised by how the Jazz performed.
I do agree that the tech can be a pain though, I wonder what NCAP's next driving hindrance will be.
Many of the up coming requirements will come from the next revision of the General Safety Regulation.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/155060/PPT%20General%20Safety%20Regulation.pdf
Many of these items, Honda are already applying, but some basically become mandatory fitment to all newly type approved vehicles.
Many of the up coming requirements will come from the next revision of the General Safety Regulation.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/155060/PPT%20General%20Safety%20Regulation.pdf
Many of these items, Honda are already applying, but some basically become mandatory fitment to all newly type approved vehicles.
Strictly speaking that looks like EU regulations but I have no doubt the UK will also comply as it make sense. It looks like Honda are well ahead of the game though.
Think you are missing the point. The regulations apply to EU cars exactly the same. Nothing to do with tariff restrictions.
I always say to people going to a 2 pedal from a 3 pedal to take your left shoe off. It helps as a reminder that you don't need your left foot.
However, I see frequent posts from people who use both feet on autos and it sends a shiver as unless you are 100% confident then it can aid wrong pedal crashes and permanent brake lights not to mention premature pad wear.
I always say to people going to a 2 pedal from a 3 pedal to take your left shoe off. It helps as a reminder that you don't need your left foot.
However, I see frequent posts from people who use both feet on autos and it sends a shiver as unless you are 100% confident then it can aid wrong pedal crashes and permanent brake lights not to mention premature pad wear.
You should never want to brake and accelerate at same time.Unless you're doing doughnuts in a go kart.
I never have a problem changing between auto and manual vehicles, and have never used left foot braking, it is dangerous, the best your left foot can do is bash your nose on windscreen. You should never want to brake and accelerate at same time.
It should immediately be apparent that left foot braking has far more potential for benefit in an automatic car than in a manual, as having one foot do nothing while another does two things is at the very least inefficient.
Left braking makes sense in an automatic, and depending on who you talk to, may even be safer. Mistakenly pressing the wrong pedal in a given situation is responsible for a surprising number of accidents – and is believed to be hugely underreported as instances are often bundled under driver error along with everything else.
Having one foot on each pedal would drastically reduce the likelihood of this happening as you have a constant feel of where each pedal is, with no need to find it again hastily during a developing situation.
There is also a slight benefit in the reduction in time it takes get a foot onto the brake pedal in an emergency. Those saved fractions of a second it takes to move your right foot from the accelerator to the brake could make all the difference.
I never have a problem changing between auto and manual vehicles, and have never used left foot braking, it is dangerous, the best your left foot can do is bash your nose on windscreen. You should never want to brake and accelerate at same time.
I fully agree. Here is one guy who just won't be told that it's dangerous and here is his theory:QuoteIt should immediately be apparent that left foot braking has far more potential for benefit in an automatic car than in a manual, as having one foot do nothing while another does two things is at the very least inefficient.
Left braking makes sense in an automatic, and depending on who you talk to, may even be safer. Mistakenly pressing the wrong pedal in a given situation is responsible for a surprising number of accidents – and is believed to be hugely underreported as instances are often bundled under driver error along with everything else.
Having one foot on each pedal would drastically reduce the likelihood of this happening as you have a constant feel of where each pedal is, with no need to find it again hastily during a developing situation.
There is also a slight benefit in the reduction in time it takes get a foot onto the brake pedal in an emergency. Those saved fractions of a second it takes to move your right foot from the accelerator to the brake could make all the difference.
He just won't be told !
I've seen posts on this forum which seem to suggest that the use of the brake, going downhill or whatever, during the regeneration mode, adds to the effect and increases the charge in the HV battery.
No, I believe the exact opposite happens, since energy is used up by the brakes, leaving less available for regeneration.
It would be interesting to know, whether Time and/or Speed come into the equation, by that I mean whether going down a hill slower, hence taking longer, makes any difference?
In fact what are the optimum parameters, for extracting maximum charge, from a given regeneration situation?
I've seen posts on this forum which seem to suggest that the use of the brake, going downhill or whatever, during the regeneration mode, adds to the effect and increases the charge in the HV battery.
No, I believe the exact opposite happens, since energy is used up by the brakes, leaving less available for regeneration.
It would be interesting to know, whether Time and/or Speed come into the equation, by that I mean whether going down a hill slower, hence taking longer, makes any difference?
In fact what are the optimum parameters, for extracting maximum charge, from a given regeneration situation?
Regenerative braking is what hybrids are all about. I think you are wrong.
Regenerative braking is what hybrids are all about.
Regenerative braking is what hybrids are all about.I was trying say, that use of the brake pedal does not increase the regenerative braking, or the amount of charge obtained.
There is a 2km+ hill near me with a steep section to start in a 40mph zone, by the time I've not even gone half way the battery pack is already full.If it's a hill that you regularly visit then you can explore different driving techniques as you approach the hill with the objective of starting the descent with the battery at the low end of the charge range.
...but my Toyota absolutely regenerates more the harder you brake using either the pedal or the simulated gear changes. It is the only way it charges.
...but my Toyota absolutely regenerates more the harder you brake using either the pedal or the simulated gear changes. It is the only way it charges.
...and this means that there is either something completely wrong with your Toyota Hybrid, or you don't really understand how it works...
Watch this:
The battery is also charged by the generator, driven by the petrol engin!
There is enough space to put 1.8kw battery, as only half of spare tyre used by hybrid battery with all it's electronic staff.There is a 2km+ hill near me with a steep section to start in a 40mph zone, by the time I've not even gone half way the battery pack is already full.If it's a hill that you regularly visit then you can explore different driving techniques as you approach the hill with the objective of starting the descent with the battery at the low end of the charge range.
However, I agree that more battery capacity would be welcome, not only to accommodate more regeneration on longer descents but also pushing further into the future the time when battery wear starts to adversely affect the overall efficiency.
Yes, assuming the development of cheap and fast charging battery packs, it would be very easy to bring out a full EV Jazz - just replacing the engine & fuel tank spaces with batteries.Honda played with Fit EV in USA in 2012
There's also some more space in the boot underfloor, and if they really wanted to they could give up the magic seats and put more batteries under the rear seats too for a huge range.
There's also some more space in the boot underfloor, and if they really wanted to they could give up the magic seats and put more batteries under the rear seats too for a huge range.Honda might not want to extend the battery further backwards but is keeping that underfloor cavity as part of the crumple zone. I reckon that the magic seats could be moved at least 2" forwards and still have excellent rear seat legroom while creating space for a slightly larger battery (and would increase boot capacity when the rear seats are up).
Hi Guys
Today I reached the 5000 miles point on my Mk4, since purchase in April.
The attached photo shows the fuel consumption over that distance as 68.6 mpg, covering a wide variety of roads. narrow single track to motorways. This figure represents an improvement in consumption of around 25%, as compared with my previous Mk3 Jazz, which is probably just as well, given the current cost of fuel.
Do I still like the car? Yes, I still think it is the best Jazz yet and just a very nice place to be.
My only real concern, like so many others on this forum, are the so called safety gizmos and in particular the RDMS. Concerns expressed by other members, range for annoying to downright dangerous, I've mentioned before about the 'Hand of God' intervening on narrow country lanes and attempting to steer me into the path of an oncoming car. In my view the feature is totally unsuited to the vast majority of UK roads.
Do Honda actually read these posts. They really need to issue a software update, whereby the RDMS can be permanently disabled, at the discretion of the driver, much like LKAS. Having to disable it at every start-up is a real PITA.
Honda, please do something about it !!!!
It was dark, snowing, with wet snow lying on the roads and it seemed that I had no way of knowing what the driving wheels were doing, ie driving or just spinning, other than loss of steering.
Even in ECO mode it seemed to be very easy to spin the wheels, power seemed to be, 'all or nothing'.
With previous cars the rising engine speed, has given some indication of wheelslip, even with the CVT, but with EV power there is of course no sound.
Agree with RDMS, needs to be choice at start up.
Interesting comments on driveability of a vehicle in EV mode in snow. I can well imagine the difficulty for the driver when you're getting little or no sensory feedback from the power unit. When I got my new-to-me 10yr old Yaris with drive-by-wire the first thing I noticed was the lack of "connection" to the throttle, it seemed totally remote (which of course it is). I have got used to it now, but there is no feel at all. My Jazz on the other hand feels right, but it is a couple of generations on from the Yaris and these systems get improved.It’s not just in snow, summer tyres start to lose their grip at temperatures below 7C. All Season and winter tyres are made from a different compound that retains grip at low temperatures.
I wonder how extensive the testing is for this? When working for car manufacturers (years ago now) we did a lot of cold climate testing mainly in Canada, down to -35C fairly regularly. In powertrain we were primarily concerned with starting and cold driveabilty of the engine, but all aspects got thoroughly tested (heating, suspension, transmissions etc).
Just to second the comments by LV, you really cannot beat a decent cold weather tyre, those summer tyres with unbroken peripheral bands are hopeless in snow. I've used Goodyear winter tyres in the past and they are superb, my choice today would be cross-climate versions of a well reviewed brand, several good models to choose from.
Mostly down to tyres I think.
I can hear if its snowed in the night. Cars on summer tyres simply cant get up the really quite gentle hill outside. Especially powerful rear wheel drive ones. They turn the road into an 'ice rink. In the past I might have chucked a bit of rock salt on it from the nearby council grit bin. But now I think," Maybe its better you go no further on those Hockey puck tyres. You're safer in Town. "
In countries where winter tyres are normal snow tends to get broken up and flung off (by whatever means :-[ ) leaving a rough surface with surprisingly good grip.
Just been for a walk , saw very few cars with tyres even remotely suitable for snow. Even 4x4's