Clubjazz - Honda Jazz & HR-V Forums
Other Hondas & General Topics => Off Topic (Non-Honda) => Topic started by: Westy36 on February 25, 2021, 10:10:31 AM
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News announced today. It's not going to affect any Honda Jazz, but if you have other cars it could do.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-set-for-september-2021-launch
List of petrol vehicles compatible with using “E10” https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/130329_%28revised%29_ALL_ACEA_SAAB_JAMA_E10_COMPATIBILITY.pdf
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This is a backward step.
Not only does it take land space that could be used to grow food.
It is less efficient. Guestimated fuel consumption will drop from mid 50s to high 40s.with corresponding loss of power.
Vehicles with steel tanks are at risk of rust and leakage, as E10 absorbs water.
It also rots O rings.
Its like the electric car red herring.
The way forward is fuel cell technology.
Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk
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Yes - I've always been sceptical of using food to power anything. I can see a case for using things like old cooking fats and certain types of biomass but not food.
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In Finland we have had E10 for ten years now. Despite lots of debate back then there has been practically no problems with it. Of course some cars are instructed to use E5 either due to the ethanol amount or due to E5 having higher octane number. Increasing part of the ethanol used as fuel is made or process or community waste, but I couldn't find the percentage at the moment.
My personal opinion is, that using ethanol as fuel in existing conventional combustion engine cars is much better solution than manufacturing new battery powered cars. If I had a car that could be converted to use E85, I'd do it right away, but unfortunately it's not possible on Jazz direct injection engine.
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As TnTkr suggests, it's more fuss than reality. Normal pump petrol has been allowed to contain up to 5% ethanol without labelling for years and years. E10 has been used in other markets for at least a decade.
No vehicle manufactured in the last 20yrs or so should have any real issue with E10, the industry has known about it and engineered systems accordingly.
Certainly there can be issues with older vehicles, but they aren't major in most cases. There can be problems with some copper based alloys (brasses) and some die-cast stuff, and some rubbers don't take kindly but any rubber fuel system component in the last 20yrs will be absolutely fine, the specific materials used are selected for resistance to the fuels in use.
Fuel consumption is hardly affected in my experience of using E10 on the Continent, you'd have to do a careful back-to-back test to measure anything much. Ethanol has about 2/3 the energy content per litre compared to typical gasoline (21MJ/L vs 32MJ/L taking density into account, 27MJ/kg vs 43MJ/kg), so in theory replacing 5% (additional) of the gasoline with ethanol will reduce the energy content of the mixture by less than 2%. That sort of fuel economy change is usually barely noticeable.
Ethanol does combine with water to some extent, but this can actually be a useful characteristic in that it "de-waters" the system. Water gets into the system anyway, and with no de-watering agents it can form water droplets which can cause localised corrosion effects. The ethanol will not make more water get into the fuel system in your car, it gets there anyway, best to purge it through.
There will be a "protected" grade of E5 (or less) for those vehicles which should not use E10.
The arguments for/against will go on for years, much like removing lead. World political aspects are another matter altogether.
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My MK1 Octi had many tankfulls of E10 over the years on its numerous Euro trips. I never noticed any difference at all, and given how well I know the car, I would have noticed.
In South America, Brasil especially, they have been using E fuel for decades.
(https://images.hgmsites.net/med/pump-with-multiple-ethanol-gasoline-blends_100442137_m.jpg)
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1092181_a-brief-history-of-ethanol-in-brazil
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News announced today. It's not going to affect any Honda Jazz, but if you have other cars it could do.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-set-for-september-2021-launch
List of petrol vehicles compatible with using “E10” https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/130329_%28revised%29_ALL_ACEA_SAAB_JAMA_E10_COMPATIBILITY.pdf
thing is grant shapps cant see a problem with E28 as Brazil uses it, this plank doesn't know much about cars as every one will need replacing as no car in the uk can use E28. even california uses E10. the sooner these idiots are gone the better. E10 should be the last change to uk fuel we see but they will still try more and more crap
and by 2030 they want europe to be using E20 and honda cant use that so what then? scrap all the cars in the country? they are really stupid
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News announced today. It's not going to affect any Honda Jazz, but if you have other cars it could do.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-set-for-september-2021-launch
List of petrol vehicles compatible with using “E10” https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/130329_%28revised%29_ALL_ACEA_SAAB_JAMA_E10_COMPATIBILITY.pdf
thing is grant shapps cant see a problem with E28 as Brazil uses it, this plank doesn't know much about cars as every one will need replacing as no car in the uk can use E28. even california uses E10. the sooner these idiots are gone the better. E10 should be the last change to uk fuel we see but they will still try more and more crap
and by 2030 they want europe to be using E20 and honda cant use that so what then? scrap all the cars in the country? they are really stupid
They are Not so much stupid as Crafty as a weasel,when or if these cars are scrapped, the alternative is electric,Bingo.
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thing is grant shapps cant see a problem with E28 as Brazil uses it, this plank doesn't know much about cars as every one will need replacing as no car in the uk can use E28. even california uses E10. the sooner these idiots are gone the better. E10 should be the last change to uk fuel we see but they will still try more and more crap
and by 2030 they want europe to be using E20 and honda cant use that so what then? scrap all the cars in the country? they are really stupid
E20 by 2030 ?? Where did you find that out? Thanks.
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E20 by 2030 ?? Where did you find that out? Thanks.
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it was just europe from 2030, but like idiots we would have to follow
‘The conclusion we have reached is that all the vehicles coming onto the market and those since 2011 should be able to handle fuels with up to 20% ethanol,’ said Ortwin Costenoble, a senior standardisation consultant at the Royal Netherlands Standardization Institute (NEN), which led the project. ‘We were working on the basis that in 2030, countries would adopt E20 as the main source of fuel.’
bloody idiots its E10 max not E15 or E20 this better not come in over in the UK
https://horizon-magazine.eu/article/why-raising-alcohol-content-europe-s-fuels-could-reduce-carbon-emissions.html
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I'm not convinced on the rise of E fuels being the saviour emissions wise. The EU, indeed the world, would do a lot better looking at both the marine/shipping and the aviation industries. There are much bigger emissions benefits to be made there.
I've just had a read of the link to Horizon magazine. The project quoted is working on the basis of cars 2011> be ok to use E20 from 2030. Well at that point the 2011 car will be 19yrs old. Actualy, that doesn't sound that dramatic to me. Average car life has to be less than 19yrs anyway!
Obviously there needs to be a source of fuel for cars that need a lower E content, or some form of additive as there is for lead free fuel and classic cars. Time will tell. I'm sure there were people years ago saying taking lead out of fuel was madness.
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I'm not convinced on the rise of E fuels being the saviour emissions wise. The EU, indeed the world, would do a lot better looking at both the marine/shipping and the aviation industries. There are much bigger emissions benefits to be made there.
I've just had a read of the link to Horizon magazine. The project quoted is working on the basis of cars 2011> be ok to use E20 from 2030. Well at that point the 2011 car will be 19yrs old. Actualy, that doesn't sound that dramatic to me. Average car life has to be less than 19yrs anyway!
Obviously there needs to be a source of fuel for cars that need a lower E content, or some form of additive as there is for lead free fuel and classic cars. Time will tell. I'm sure there were people years ago saying taking lead out of fuel was madness.
trouble is cars made from 2015 (eg Mk3 jazz launch) should have been made to take e20 and not just e10 as they are with our cars and 2030 no new petrol cars will be sold and i was hoping to keep my car long into the 2030's as im not going electric
they are really eager to go e20 even though no car in the uk can take it, they got away with e10 from e5 as only 600,000 cars cant take it and half of them are classics and half just old cars
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There is a very high probability (effectively certain I think) that a "protected grade" E5 will be available for some years to come, it may be only as a premium octane grade but there will be something.
I'm not sure what the latest is, but this is one summary (dated 2020) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/940334/e10-petrol-and-consumer-protection-response-to-2018-call-for-evidence.pdf
Unfortunately you can't use any sort of "additive" to remove what is already in there.
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There is a very high probability (effectively certain I think) that a "protected grade" E5 will be available for some years to come, it may be only as a premium octane grade but there will be something.
I'm not sure what the latest is, but this is one summary (dated 2020) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/940334/e10-petrol-and-consumer-protection-response-to-2018-call-for-evidence.pdf
Unfortunately you can't use any sort of "additive" to remove what is already in there.
yeah they said e5 super plus will be available for 5 years and then reviewed again, lets hope they keep it for the classic cars
at the moment there is no car that can run E20 in the uk the most they can do is E10 so they might just hold off on E20 after 2030 i cant imagine car manufactures will change the cars coming out as there is only 9 years left before they cant sell them here
myself i will be switching to super plus 99 E5, i know its a little more but i will get more mpg instead of less mpg with E10 for the same money and less corrosion and fuel seperation with water absorbtion
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I'd wish more flexfuel cars to come into European markets. In Finland E85 fuel is the only way to avoid funding Russian and Middle East governments when filling the tank. Ethanol is mostly domestic product here. I know it's different in UK, as you use also North Sea oil.
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i just thought that by 2018 when my car was made they would have thought about it and made it so it can use higher than E10
it seems all car manufacturers in the uk that E10 is the maximum so i hope E20 stays away
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I'd wish more flexfuel cars to come into European markets. In Finland E85 fuel is the only way to avoid funding Russian and Middle East governments when filling the tank. Ethanol is mostly domestic product here. I know it's different in UK, as you use also North Sea oil.
Isn't Finland close to Norway, are you guys not speaking to each other ? - Norway has plenty of oil and gas, you don't need to swell Russian oligarchs pockets.
It seems just plain wrong to me to use land that could either be left in its natural state or used for growing food to be used for making fuel. Many South American and Asian countries chopped down rainforest to use the land to grow sugar cane to make ethanol ( maize is normally used is USA ). Same with Bio-Diesel, the EU legislation on bio diesel encouraged third world countries to devastate rain forests ( which are normally on very poor soil anyway ) to grow palm oil to add to Diesel in Europe. Due to fact rainforest soil is so poor, after the first crop the rain washes the soil away, so they have to devastate some more rainforest for another years crop.
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I'd wish more flexfuel cars to come into European markets. In Finland E85 fuel is the only way to avoid funding Russian and Middle East governments when filling the tank. Ethanol is mostly domestic product here. I know it's different in UK, as you use also North Sea oil.
Isn't Finland close to Norway, are you guys not speaking to each other ? - Norway has plenty of oil and gas, you don't need to swell Russian oligarchs pockets.
:D Yes we do speak, and we buy lots of electricity from Norway. But maybe they sell their oil to somewhere else. There are business connections between Finnish major oil refinery Neste and Russian companies, so they probably get the oil cheaper from Russia or maybe buying oil is required to do other business there. And amazingly majority doesn't see it as bad as I do to buy stuff from Russia. Same with China, although no oil is coming from there.
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Norway sends loads of its oil to the UK.
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E10 fuel is to be introduced to the UK this September. Most cars made since 2011 will be compatible and, indeed, many cars made before that date.
It's said that this is an environmental measure. It is also claimed that it might result in a 1% drop in mpg which seems slightly counter productive.
I have reservations about using food to make fuel but my other concern is, as a low mileage driver, the fuel having a greater tendency to absorb water.
Am I overthinking this issue?
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It’s already here. Local Sainsbury’s is E10 and has been for a few weeks. Esso services on M6 in Cumbria E10. Local BP garage E10
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It’s already here. Local Sainsbury’s is E10 and has been for a few weeks. Esso services on M6 in Cumbria E10. Local BP garage E10
But is E5 still available? Come September E10 will replace E5 as far as I am aware.
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E10 fuel is to be introduced to the UK this September. Most cars made since 2011 will be compatible and, indeed, many cars made before that date.
It's said that this is an environmental measure. It is also claimed that it might result in a 1% drop in mpg which seems slightly counter productive.
I have reservations about using food to make fuel but my other concern is, as a low mileage driver, the fuel having a greater tendency to absorb water.
Am I overthinking this issue?
https://petroclear.com/resources/dont-be-phased.php
Another environmental box ticked, thousands of square miles of rainforest destroyed to grow stuff to add to fuel to reduce its energy content and reduce MPG. How this can be justified when the world is short of food I will never know. Lots of older motorbikes and cars cannot use this stuff without modifying fuel system.
I use this over winter in bikes, keep the tank full to reduce airgap and glug some of this in, just another expense.
http://sta-bil.co.uk/product/sta-bil-storage-fuel-stabilizer/
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But is E5 still available? Come September E10 will replace E5 as far as I am aware.
Unless anyone is running an old vehicle, then don't worry about it.
The E5 "protection grade" will be available for the forseeable future, albeit probably marketed as a "super" and costing more. Use that if you are concerned.
This is a good sensible summary of the situation. https://www.fbhvc.co.uk/fuels
The politics of such issues is always questionable, but don't lose sleep. There are far more important things to worry about.
If you are concerned about fuel consumption, walk more and drive more slowly. You won't notice 1% change in fuel economy or power. "Modern" cars will be fine, certainly anything* made this century.
* - someone will probably give an example of a car which isn't suitable.
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But is E5 still available? Come September E10 will replace E5 as far as I am aware.
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Super unleaded will remain E5 for those cars that cannot use E10. E10 will be 95 octane. Once I have used a few tank fulls of E10 I may try super unleaded to see if I can detect a difference. Some pumps are now showing the E10 labelling but that is just in preparation for deliveries starting in September. E10 and E5 denotes the maximum amount of bio fuel that the petrol may contain, it doesn't necessarily mean that is the percentage it has in it. For instance, Esso super unleaded is marked as E5 to comply with the regulations but in most parts of the country it doesn't contain any bio fuel at all (according to Esso website).
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Hello there,
Seen this picture at a Tesco petrol station and how would this new E10 patrol would affect the performance or our budget against Honda Jazz's please?
Please see two pictures attached. Tia!
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Ethanol contains less energy than petrol, so slightly lower output / less MPG from engine. When left standing Ethanol and petrol go through a phase separation https://fuelschool.blogspot.com/2009/02/phase-separation-in-ethanol-blended.html
Even with E5 i use Sta-bil fuel stabiliser in our lawn mower, hedge trimmer and motorbikes over winter and keep tanks full ( IIRC steel tanks tend to corrode along the level of the fuel in tank, where the air meets the fuel. Cannot use ethanol in glass fibre fuel tanks as it attacks the resin, also attacks the rubber seals and brass bits used in older vehicle fuel system. Your MK1 Jazz will be fine.
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Just topped up at Tesco
The pump label said "E10 95 Octane"
So the posts I've read saying that E10 is 92 Octane are wrong ?
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Another environmental box ticked, thousands of square miles of rainforest destroyed to grow stuff to add to fuel to reduce its energy content and reduce MPG. How this can be justified when the world is short of food I will never know. Lots of older motorbikes and cars cannot use this stuff without modifying fuel system.
In Finland and Sweden big part of the ethanol used in fuel is made from waste or utilizing by-products from different industrial processes. I am sure there is enough waste in UK too, if there is will, to produce bioethanol domestically and without reducing food production resources.
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Just topped up at Tesco
The pump label said "E10 95 Octane"
So the posts I've read saying that E10 is 92 Octane are wrong ?
Ethanol is an octane enhancer, low octane fuel actually has more energy content than high octane because the whole idea of octane improvers is to be hard to ignite / burn and slow down the burn rate and stop knocking, pinking ( when the petrol air fuel charge ignites due to pressure and heat, like a diesel ). Higher octane fuels enable higher compression ratios which enable spark timing to be optimised fuel and to be burned more efficiently.
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.... low octane fuel actually has more energy content than high octane because the whole idea of octane improvers is to be hard to ignite / burn and slow down the burn rate and stop knocking, pinking ......
I would slightly deviate ....... I apologise for being too pedantic.
Typical premium 97/98 RON E5 usually has a slightly higher calorific value than a regular 95RON E5 fuel, both down to specific value by weight and higher density, so something like 1.5% more energy per litre (how we buy it). Comparing different ethanol blends is a slightly different issue.
I can't find direct info today, but referring to my old Bosch Automotive Handbook, the values given are (E5)
density (kg/L) Lower calorific value (MJ/kg)
95RON 0.715-0.765 42.7
98RON 0.730-0.780 43.5
E10 will be slightly lower calorific value than the equivalent RON E5.
Knock/pinking is down to the fuel molecules breaking down into more reactive forms (significantly hydrogen peroxide H2O2) under high temp/press ahead of the flame front, which can then spontaneously react, not needing an ionising source (flame/spark). Higher octane petrol doesn't (usually, intrinsically) have a slower burn rate (rate of heat release) than lower octane versions, it is just less prone to the relevant breakdown/transformation/auto-reaction. There's some discussion and investigation of this described in https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.energyfuels.0c03883
looking at the octane sensitivity (RON vs MON) due to the different transformations at different temperatures. It's a complex chemistry business, something I'm aware of rather than knowledgeable about. As an indication of the complexity, this is an extract ....
Radical pool build-up due to chemical reactions can be used as a good marker for differing chemistry at each heat release stage. As shown by Mehl et al.,(41) distinct chemical reactions are responsible for low-, intermediate-, and high-temperature chemistry. Some commonly used markers were investigated for n-heptane at 700, 800, 900, and 1000 K, and shown in Figure 13. For comparison, iso-octane values were also given at 700 K. Initial pressure was fixed at 25 atm for these figures. As expected, heat released due to low-temperature chemistry decreased with increasing temperature. Heat release in the low-temperature region was followed closely by generation and destruction of OH radicals, as propagation reactions favored the formation of HO2. The HO2 formation led to H abstraction, causing H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) formation and delaying the main ignition process. H2O2 decomposed to form two OH radicals, instigating the high-temperature heat release event. The decomposition of H2O2 in the figures can be treated as the point of autoignition (end of ITHR). Also, from this figure, H2O2 and HCHO (formaldehyde) can be treated as markers for ITHR. The heat release rate was magnified 100 times for the iso-octane case to show the profile legibly. iso-Octane is known to exhibit a more pronounced NTC behavior because of large intermediate-temperature heat release. Although negligible LTHR was observed, the measure of H2O2 and HCHO was still considerable, signaling a relatively longer second-stage delay from intermediate-temperature chemistry.
Again, apologies for being pedantic, your comments are always appreciated.
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So, “regular unleaded” is being replaced with E10 that contains up to 10% renewable ethanol. E5 will still be available as a “premium unleaded” which typically costs 10p or more extra per litre.
The Jazz runs on E5 or E10. I was wondering what forum members will choose when they fill up in September?
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I am unaware of these changes, please explain.
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From 1st September, standard 95 Octane (currently 95% petrol and 5% ethanol know as E5) will become E10 - 90% petrol and 10% ethanol. Some cars, although not the Jazz, will still need E5. This means they will have to buy Premium Fuel at 98 or 99 RON which will remain E5. Most of these cars are classic cars and some older models.
There is some evidence that E10 might cause a very slight increase, about 1%, in fuel consumption.
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Note that E5 has a maximum of 5% ethanol and E10 a maximum of 10%.
Which means you might be fueling expensive E5 with 4.99% ethanol and E10 with 5.01% ethanol... ;)
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One thing to be aware of is that E10 is more likely to separate in storage (or a fuel tank) than E5. This will particularly affect cars that don't get filled up that often. (eg. plug in hybrids.)
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It will be interesting to check mpg of E5 v E10. E5 will be "Super" blend with higher octane rating - 97-98. I have found with my current petrol car that although Super is 9p more per litre than regular I get 7% better mpg and engine seems smoother with more power. Maybe just me but I can certainly notice the difference.
Whether the difference will be noticeable in an Atkinson cycle engine with a hybrid power train is another question.
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I filled up at a Tesco forecourt over a week ago and E10 has already arrived! The petrol nozzles being clearly marked E10 95 octane and E5 97 octane.
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Why mend it if it ain't broke..???
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I filled up at a Tesco forecourt over a week ago and E10 has already arrived! The petrol nozzles being clearly marked E10 95 octane and E5 97 octane.
Interesting to see if you notice any difference in mpg or engine note.
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I could tell a difference between Tesco Regular and Super with my Nissan Micra, driving on Regular then onto a full ltank of Super gave some"interesting " moments when moving off from rest, the revs soar rapidly as soon as I touch the accelerator pedal withthe Super grade, the engine pick up from idle rpm ( (not in gear) was so much faster, there was a need to adjust my accelarator / clutch technique for moving off from rest.
I had always used Tesco Super but recently changed to Texaco Regular for the Jazz, I find the engine response is slower than with Tesco Super, the change is for the better, I can change gear more easily as it isless "revvy" and easier to synchronise engine revs and clutch engagement in the lower gears without any jerkiness.
I was advised not to use Tesco Regular, it is cheap petrol because it is of the lowest specification capable of passing the regulations for octane etc. The advisor owned a classic car and his car cylinder head and valves clogged up, he had no issues using Texaco fuel
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I filled up at a Tesco forecourt over a week ago and E10 has already arrived! The petrol nozzles being clearly marked E10 95 octane and E5 97 octane.
The pumps are changed but the petrol hasn't. Not until the first tanker after the 1st of September. 5% and 10% is the MAXIMUM ethanol not the actual amount so it can say E10 but still only contain 5%.
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According to BP and Shell, E10 has been available outside the U.K. for some time. Any of our Continental friends had any experience of this fuel?
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I’ve always used Shell V Power, which should be a maximum of E5 but could be less.
I used to run it in several hybrid cars before I bought the Jazz and found it makes the engine smoother, particularly useful in an eCVT that can be running at higher constant revs.
It’s also supposed to give you a bit more torque lower down the Rev range so you don’t have to Rev as high.
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I’ve always used Shell V Power, which should be a maximum of E5 but could be less.
I used to run it in several hybrid cars before I bought the Jazz and found it makes the engine smoother, particularly useful in an eCVT that can be running at higher constant revs.
It’s also supposed to give you a bit more torque lower down the Rev range so you don’t have to Rev as high.
Exactly what I find in conventional engined & gearbox car. Question is with the Atkinson cycle engine whether the extra power will make any difference because in Jazz it is usually charging the battery. Of course when direct connected to drive it might be superior. Someone needs to try it and let us know!
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According to BP and Shell, E10 has been available outside the U.K. for some time. Any of our Continental friends had any experience of this fuel?
Here a Continental friend...
I dare to say that there will be little or no noticeable difference in consumption between E5 and E10. A difference of only 1 Beaufort wind force will probably have a more noticeable influence on consumption. Positive or negative, depending on tailwind or headwind... ;)
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One thing to be aware of is that E10 is more likely to separate in storage (or a fuel tank) than E5. This will particularly affect cars that don't get filled up that often. (eg. plug in hybrids.)
Do you have an authoritative source for this statement please? I’ve not seen it mentioned anywhere else, which makes me think it’s one of those “It’s on the internet, so it must be true” statements that are actually just someone’s opinion rather than factually correct. Petrol does have a shelf life (eg see this: https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/know-how/does-fuel-go-off-old-fuel-and-fuel-storage-questions-answered/) but there’s no mention of that being dependent on the ethanol content.
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Search Petroclear. Phased separation occurs when the fuel gets contaminated with water. The Ethanol attaches to the water and separates out. Not something the UK motorist needs to worry about.
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Water you are supposed to pour into the windshield washer reservoir and not the fuel tank? ;D
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Search Petroclear.
Done that, but I'm really not sure of the relevance. Looks like a range of filters available for various commercial applications (eg to separate contaminants from fuel delivered at petrol pumps). That would seem like a good idea to ensure the quality of delivered fuel, but I still don't see anything to support the contention that E10 is worse than E5.
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I filled up at a Tesco forecourt over a week ago and E10 has already arrived! The petrol nozzles being clearly marked E10 95 octane and E5 97 octane.
Interesting to see if you notice any difference in mpg or engine note.
I have done 200 miles on E10 and can't tell the difference. still get up to 40 round town and max 51 on a run. Performance identical.
Karoq 1.5 DSG with active cylinder control and turbo
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I filled up at a Tesco forecourt over a week ago and E10 has already arrived! The petrol nozzles being clearly marked E10 95 octane and E5 97 octane.
Interesting to see if you notice any difference in mpg or engine note.
I have done 200 miles on E10 and can't tell the difference. still get up to 40 round town and max 51 on a run. Performance identical.
Karoq 1.5 DSG with active cylinder control and turbo
Many garages still have either all E5 or a mix of E5 and E10 at the moment- they seem to just fill the tank, rather than flushing the whole system before filling 100% with E10.
Some have put the E10 stickers up, but not actually started selling the new fuel.
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https://www.hagerty.co.uk/articles/maintenance-and-gear/everything-you-need-to-know-about-using-e10-fuel-with-your-classic-car/
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Interesting link - the sub link to the autocar article showed a reduction in fuel economy of 9% for E10 on one car!
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I really can't believe those Autocar results. Unless you do consumption tests in a controlled manner you won't get reliable results, I come from 30yrs in engine development and you really do need to control conditions very accurately. The difference in calorific value, stoichiometric A/F ratio and density is of the order of one or two percent, and you need very carefully repeatable conditions to measure that sort of change. I don't know how they did it, but coming up with numbers like 10% makes me think it was some sort of back to back road drive.
In a modern car going from E5 to E10 really won't affect either the perceived performance nor the general fuel economy, unless you can spot a 1 or 2% change (most people only notice something like a 10% change in power, anything less and it really isn't very obvious in everyday driving). I've used E10 on the continent quite regularly, it's fine.
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In my experience Autocar comment is b*ollox!
I am beginning to loose all confidence in these so called motoring experts after the moronic review by Autoexpress, comparing the Dacia with the Crosstar.
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In my experience Autocar comment is b*ollox!
I am beginning to loose all confidence in these so called motoring experts after the moronic review by Autoexpress, comparing the Dacia with the Crosstar.
I recall Setright writing in Car magazine calling the Guild of Motoring Writers "the Guild of Motoring Rotters! " in the 1960s. Not much has changed since then,
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I never trust the judgment of the "professional testers". That's why I always demand an extensive test drive in a potential candidate. Before we ordered our new Jazz, we had such a test drive in the new Renault Clio Hybrid, the Toyota Yaris Hybrid and the Jazz.
Initially the Yaris was our favorite (looks!), but after the test drives we decided to order the Jazz.
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I had the Yaris on my shortlist but I did listen to the magazine reporters who said the Yaris 3 pot 1.5 was raucous compared to the Jazz 1.5
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In my experience Autocar comment is b*ollox!
I am beginning to loose all confidence in these so called motoring experts after the moronic review by Autoexpress, comparing the Dacia with the Crosstar.
I agree absolutely.. :-X
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Next week AutoExpress are publishing a road test of the Yaris Crossover. How much informative it would have been if they had compared Jazz Crosstar with the Yaris Crossover rather than the Dacia.
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Next week AutoExpress are publishing a road test of the Yaris Crossover. How much informative it would have been if they had compared Jazz Crosstar with the Yaris Crossover rather than the Dacia.
I think the Yaris Cross will be up against the new Honda HRV. It is certainly the choice I will be making next year.
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I’d considered the 4WD Yaris Cross, but unfortunately the ‘4WD’ system only has a 5HP electric motor and also only works up to 20mph.
There are 4WD Jazz’s in Japan but they don’t seem to sell those in other markets.
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I had a CR-V 4WD several years ago. Never really found it to be an advantage. It doesn't snow here a lot but when it did, I just caught up all the 2WDs and joined the queue.
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Next week AutoExpress are publishing a road test of the Yaris Crossover. How much informative it would have been if they had compared Jazz Crosstar with the Yaris Crossover rather than the Dacia.
I think the Yaris Cross will be up against the new Honda HRV. It is certainly the choice I will be making next year.
Okay the Yaris is 90mm longer and 40mm wider than the Crossbar but it has less interior space apart from the boot. Pricewise it brackets the Crosstar and new HR-V but the HR-V is a larger car overall and - I suggest - will have even more internal space than the Crosstar and a bigger boot. Yaris might have a foot in both camps or fall between the two, only time will tell.
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I’d considered the 4WD Yaris Cross, but unfortunately the ‘4WD’ system only has a 5HP electric motor and also only works up to 20mph.
I have the Hybrid RAV4 AWD and the rear axle electric motor is a little more powerful than that, but even so, you are very well aware you aren't driving a Landcruiser. The point really is it's there when you need it, for traction correction, grip in tricky conditions and whatnot. As for snow, it's not the driven wheels that matter so much as the grip on the tyres. I now have Nokian All Season tyres on all round. The Yaris will suit me better than the RAV4 as I no longer have need for such a large car. But the HRV could well be the better package. Or saving money and sticking with what I have. Given the RAV4 can achieve up to 50mpg+, I would have to save a lot of money on fuel to cover the cost of changing cars.
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I'm not convinced on the rise of E fuels being the saviour emissions wise. The EU, indeed the world, would do a lot better looking at both the marine/shipping and the aviation industries. There are much bigger emissions benefits to be made there.
I've just had a read of the link to Horizon magazine. The project quoted is working on the basis of cars 2011> be ok to use E20 from 2030. Well at that point the 2011 car will be 19yrs old. Actualy, that doesn't sound that dramatic to me. Average car life has to be less than 19yrs anyway!
Obviously there needs to be a source of fuel for cars that need a lower E content, or some form of additive as there is for lead free fuel and classic cars. Time will tell. I'm sure there were people years ago saying taking lead out of fuel was madness.
but when i buy a 68 plate car i expect it to be able to use fuels for the entire life of the car and not numptys like shapps pushing for more and more ethanol like brazil (who use flex fuel cars) so it should be compatible with up to e20 if it needs it, i mean it can use e10 so the materials in the fuel system should be resiliant against e10 but why not e20 even though honda says e10 max?
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I wonder why Honda does not offer Jazz flexfuel engine worldwide, just in Brazil. I'd like very much to use E85 in my Jazz.
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I wonder why Honda does not offer Jazz flexfuel engine worldwide, just in Brazil. I'd like very much to use E85 in my Jazz.
Ethanol production is a huge waste of land, water and causes the destruction of rainforest, I have no wish to use any ethanol in fuel, it is just another of the smoke and mirrors climate change thing...
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As I mentioned in another thread, ethanol for fuel can be produced from waste. If we can do it in Finland I'm sure you can do it in UK as well.
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As I mentioned in another thread, ethanol for fuel can be produced from waste. If we can do it in Finland I'm sure you can do it in UK as well.
You can also make Hydrogen from waste, of for that matter Hydrogen from Ethanol, the thing often ignored is how 'wasteful' that is.... and main by-products are carbon and carbon dioxide - those dreaded greenhouse things... ( you take the hydrogen out of hydrocarbon and you end up with carbon products..
https://news.osu.edu/a-better-way-to-make-hydrogen-from-biofuels/
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I have just read an article online and now I understand what's going on. Should make no difference to us..
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In my opinion hydrogen production is most feasible from seawater with electricity. Waste-based ethanol is a globally feasible way to both utilize waste and to produce fuel for internal combustion engines.
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I wonder why Honda does not offer Jazz flexfuel engine worldwide, just in Brazil. I'd like very much to use E85 in my Jazz.
Yes so would I. Its a wonderful fuel, I've remapped a Fiat Coupe 20VT for E85 and its gone from 250 bhp to over 285. The emissions were so low on the pollution test, the tester thought there was a problem with his machine. Likewise I run a 2.5T Volvo engine @ 50% E85 mixed with E10, performance goes up and emissions go down.
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I wonder why Honda does not offer Jazz flexfuel engine worldwide, just in Brazil. I'd like very much to use E85 in my Jazz.
Yes so would I. Its a wonderful fuel, I've remapped a Fiat Coupe 20VT for E85 and its gone from 250 bhp to over 285. The emissions were so low on the pollution test, the tester thought there was a problem with his machine. Likewise I run a 2.5T Volvo engine @ 50% E85 mixed with E10, performance goes up and emissions go down.
Do you prefer to run it on cask strength whisky or bourbon? ;D
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No comparison. It has to be Cask Strength Whisky - preferably Islay!
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I might do what I did when I first got my Civic.
Run for a few months on E10 and note the mpg. Then run for a few months on E5 and compare. As I do roughly the same journey each week it should be a good test.
My Civic test involved Tesco 95 RON v BP and Shell high octane and the mpg and performance were identical throughout.
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I am going to have no means of comparison due to my change of driving habits. What's in the tank plus my next tankful will see me to my MOT in December.
Tomorrow I have a big trip. Shopping at my local Asda. 10-mile round trip, if I go the long way!
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I might do what I did when I first got my Civic.
Run for a few months on E10 and note the mpg. Then run for a few months on E5 and compare. As I do roughly the same journey each week it should be a good test.
My Civic test involved Tesco 95 RON v BP and Shell high octane and the mpg and performance were identical throughout.
The problem is E10 does not mean 10% Ethanol content, E10 means the fuel contains Ethanol in the range of near-zero to 10% content.
We have no means of testing the Ethanol content of the fuel we use, it could be 10%, it could be zero, or in between the values
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[/quote]
We have no means of testing the Ethanol content of the fuel we use, it could be 10%, it could be zero, or in between the values
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Yes you do. You need a graduated sample tube (with a cap) a bit like a test tube of say 100ml capacity. Add 10ml of water and then top up to 100ml with E10, shake and then leave. The Ethanol will mix with the water and settle out from the petrol, subtract the 10ml of water and the rest will be the ethanol. Amazon used to sell a "test kit".
Its a faff but if you have a petrol lawn mower you could test it when you fill a 5 liter can.
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I might do what I did when I first got my Civic.
Run for a few months on E10 and note the mpg. Then run for a few months on E5 and compare. As I do roughly the same journey each week it should be a good test.
My Civic test involved Tesco 95 RON v BP and Shell high octane and the mpg and performance were identical throughout.
When we changed to it about 18 months ago we went from an indicated 52.5 mpg on 95 to 50.5 mpg on E10
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Yes you do. You need a graduated sample tube (with a cap) a bit like a test tube of say 100ml capacity. Add 10ml of water and then top up to 100ml with E10, shake and then leave. The Ethanol will mix with the water and settle out from the petrol, subtract the 10ml of water and the rest will be the ethanol.
This isn't strictly true... if you mix 10ml of ethanol thoroughly with 10ml of water, the resulting mixture will have a volume of 19.2ml, so your simple subtraction will not be accurate.
https://www.carolina.com/teacher-resources/Interactive/chemistry-lost-volume-demonstration/tr10785.tr
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:D :D :D Thank you for the correction :D :D
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2010 honda jazz i-shift, is E10 ok??
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Yes.
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ive used E10, and cant detect any real world difference..... ;D
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Yes you do. You need a graduated sample tube (with a cap) a bit like a test tube of say 100ml capacity. Add 10ml of water and then top up to 100ml with E10, shake and then leave. The Ethanol will mix with the water and settle out from the petrol, subtract the 10ml of water and the rest will be the ethanol.
This isn't strictly true... if you mix 10ml of ethanol thoroughly with 10ml of water, the resulting mixture will have a volume of 19.2ml, so your simple subtraction will not be accurate.
https://www.carolina.com/teacher-resources/Interactive/chemistry-lost-volume-demonstration/tr10785.tr
But like most things in life, don't look for 10 decimal places when an approximation is good enough :(
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Yes you do. You need a graduated sample tube (with a cap) a bit like a test tube of say 100ml capacity. Add 10ml of water and then top up to 100ml with E10, shake and then leave. The Ethanol will mix with the water and settle out from the petrol, subtract the 10ml of water and the rest will be the ethanol.
This isn't strictly true... if you mix 10ml of ethanol thoroughly with 10ml of water, the resulting mixture will have a volume of 19.2ml, so your simple subtraction will not be accurate.
https://www.carolina.com/teacher-resources/Interactive/chemistry-lost-volume-demonstration/tr10785.tr
As well as that, all the ethanol is not going to be extracted by the water but will partition between the water and the petrol.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=partition+coefficient+ethanol+in+water+and+octane&&view=detail&mid=C30A8A06784799A022EAC30A8A06784799A022EA&&FORM=VDRVRV
Anyway what's the point. To all intents and purposes unleaded, E5 and E10 will give similar performance.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=How+does+ethanol+change+gasoline+and+octane%3f&docid=608052079438867705&mid=EF650B70126141376D66EF650B70126141376D66&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
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They were saying on the news that E10 may cause issues in petrol mowers when left standing over winter.
Makes you wonder for us low mileage drivers. Presumably driving helps slosh it about and mix it up again ?
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Here in Finland 98E5 is suggested for all small engines, such as chain saws, trimmers, mowers and outboard engines.
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As far as I am aware, E10 petrol is not suitable for small petrol engines in mowers and other small appliances. I would be reluctant to use it in a car that was rarely used, or stored for long periods of time.
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I will buy 97 or 99 RON for my Briggs Stratton mower. Get the grass cut in half the time!
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Half cut sounds better
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They were saying on the news that E10 may cause issues in petrol mowers when left standing over winter.
Makes you wonder for us low mileage drivers. Presumably driving helps slosh it about and mix it up again ?
Use this 'StaBil' in motorbikes and mower etc over winter, worked so far with E5 - supposed to stop or slow down water absorption / phase separation and generally stop fuel from going 'stale' - lot of other bikers use it as well in places like USA that have been using ethanol longer than UK has, and in greater quantities ( because the corn lobby wanted to sell more corn )..
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/302607331837?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=7101533165274578&mkcid=2&itemid=302607331837&targetid=4585169652812021&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=412354547&mkgroupid=1305120599331881&rlsatarget=pla-4585169652812021&abcId=9300541&merchantid=87779&msclkid=771468f221c71d57e26409c2dfe66b3b
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The story behind ethanol in fuel is more complicated than it seems. Ethanol is the cheapest octane booster, the 'corn lobby' in USA also saw a chance to boost their profits, by turning over land from other crops and ploughing up prairies to plant more corn and guarantee a growing and lucrative market. As the MPG of cars improves and less petrol ( gasoline ) sold, the corn lobby wants to keep increasing the amount mixed with fuels to keep their profits rising. Environmentalists actually hate ethanol / corn because it causes massive land degradation and gives nowhere for wildlife to live in the vast mono-crop deserts.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/02/10/466010209/the-shocking-truth-about-americas-ethanol-law-it-doesnt-matter-for-now?t=1630653675291
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The story behind ethanol in fuel is more complicated than it seems. Ethanol is the cheapest octane booster, the 'corn lobby' in USA also saw a chance to boost their profits, by turning over land from other crops and ploughing up prairies to plant more corn and guarantee a growing and lucrative market. As the MPG of cars improves and less petrol ( gasoline ) sold, the corn lobby wants to keep increasing the amount mixed with fuels to keep their profits rising. Environmentalists actually hate ethanol / corn because it causes massive land degradation and gives nowhere for wildlife to live in the vast mono-crop deserts.
As long as it's made from waste, as TnTkr says, and reduces use of fossil fuels it will be a good thing but to use agricultural land to grow crops specifically to manufacture it or to manufacture it from hydrocarbons (hydrolysis of ethene) makes no sense.
I suspect a lot of greenwashing here too.
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For it to absorb moisture from the atmosphere it has to be exposed. In a sealed container or a petrol tank the volume above the liquid is fuel vapour, there is effectively no "air" in a fuel tank, and thus no atmospheric moisture. Modern fuel tanks in cars are not "open" to atmosphere, they will pretty much always have a slight positive pressure of vapour.
Degradation by other means is a different issue, and stabilisers can help with this. The best solution is to either empty it or fill it completely, bulk fuel degradation is significantly reduced. Carbs tend to be the biggest problem, small jets and open to atmosphere. I usually drain the carbs and fill the tank on bikes for winter.
Mowers are easier, just drain everything, usually not difficult. If I am called to a mower which won't start in spring, I usually just try some brake cleaner down the intake first, the issue is often simply lack of volatility to get it going. Once fired it will often continue on the old fuel. Then just add as much fresh fuel as you can and it's usually fine. They usually only form the dreaded jelly if left for years rather than months.
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I find the time between the last cut and the following year's first cut doesn't warrant draining down the mower (certainly not in this part of the country), and I usually find it starts first pull in the Spring.
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I find the time between the last cut and the following year's first cut doesn't warrant draining down the mower (certainly not in this part of the country), and I usually find it starts first pull in the Spring.
I used to have a nightmare starting both my carbed motorbike and the mower come mowing and riding season, then adding redex in autumn made life much easier, letting fuel in carbs dry out is asking for trouble ( nothing to do with ethanol though) as the resulting lacquer can stick floats and block jets. Now use StaBil over winter and redex during the year. Neighbour had to strip his mower carb down for a massive clean a few years ago come spring, showed absolutely no sign of wanting to start, I gave him a bottle of redex and his mower been fine since.
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Can I come as a non expert ......
The Jazz is listed as 104gsm or whatever the letters are.
With E10 supposedly pushing out less nasty stuff could that figure drop below the magic 100 ?
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Ever heard about NOx, Gamifier?
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Can I come as a non expert ......
The Jazz is listed as 104gsm or whatever the letters are.
With E10 supposedly pushing out less nasty stuff could that figure drop below the magic 100 ?
Unfortunately this performance is far from being cleaner than new generation diesel engines. With the new mild hybrid technology and particle filters you easily get down to 80gsm. I highly respect car manufacturers that keep doing research and development to come up with better diesel engines. They really succeeded in all eco tests without cheating! That’s not very good news for Honda
Well it’s quite rare that I see such a lack of technical knowledge.
1. 80 gsm is a grade of paper
2. Particulate filters oddly enough filter out particulates not CO2
3. Mild hybrid isn’t as efficient as full hybrids (like the Jazz Mk4)
4. Diesels still adversely affect human health far more than equivalent petrol engines
I would say it’s actually good news for Honda.
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@kremmen has a point. The emissions should change a little. My understanding is incr in ethanol increases bmep and thermal efficiency e.g. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1687814020943356
But the net CO2 drops, as the 10% ethanol is counted as renewable. There used to be a 100 g/km cut off for low car tax, and so incentive to tune from 104. But I think no longer.
I doubt there is any ongoing diesel development for passenger cars, sure I've seen articles that psa and Mercedes have stopped, looking at tier 1 suppliers, like Bosch, there is a lot of ev drivetrains and safety, less on engines.
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As a Ford aside, and how immutable engine tech changes ..
As a student in the 90s, lean burn petrol was the way fwd. Toyota, honda all had cracking high eff engines.
My school done turbulent flow models esp on 2 stroke, and our lecturer was ex Ford where he was working on new 2 stoke engine for fiesta/ka .then Emissions and so cat converters took precedence over thermal efficiency. and Ford relaunched pushrod Kent engine.
So the raw efficiency of diesel may not not be enough to survive despite all the research of the last 15, 20 yrs.
Anyone passing in Belfast should look in Ashby lobby for cool 2 stroke Ford and Jag engines. If staring at engines is your thing.
The Jag was 1.5 V6, and truly diminutive
https://www.whichcar.com.au/features/why-the-australian-orbital-two-stroke-engine-never-took-off
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/08/lotus-qub-and-j.html
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I recall the Ford Orbital 2-stroke engine of the late 1980s, some were said to on trial in Essex fitted to Police patrol cars,
I think one of the issues leading to cancellation was excessive Nox emissions in the exhaust, since regulations tolerated high Nox levels back then, they must have been very high.
The Orbitel was intended for the Ford Ka, which ended up with the old fashioned pushrod engine dating back to the 1950s
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My thinks about this: Cars are much much cleaner than they were when I started driving in 1967. While riding my motorcycle, if I have to stop behind a classic car, the fumes from the exhaust are horrible. The exhaust tailpipe will be thick with soot. Have a look at the exhaust tailpipe of modern cars; they stay clean for years.
A fully electric car would not suit my driving needs. I'm also not convinced by the push to fully electric. The power is still being generated; the driver just doesn't see it. I know there are arguments about the economy of scale etc.
Industry and farming are massive polluters.
Anyway, a hybrid car makes me feel happy that I'm using less fossil fuel and helping my pension go further.
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My thinks about this: Cars are much much cleaner than they were when I started driving in 1967. While riding my motorcycle, if I have to stop behind a classic car, the fumes from the exhaust are horrible. The exhaust tailpipe will be thick with soot. Have a look at the exhaust tailpipe of modern cars; they stay clean for years.
A fully electric car would not suit my driving needs. I'm also not convinced by the push to fully electric. The power is still being generated; the driver just doesn't see it. I know there are arguments about the economy of scale etc.
Industry and farming are massive polluters.
Anyway, a hybrid car makes me feel happy that I'm using less fossil fuel and helping my pension go further.
I agree. The Jazz hybrid is an excellent step towards zero carbon. How much CO2 would be saved if all cars on the road could do 70 mpg? Plus the benefit to clean air.
I too am not 100% convinced on fully electric. Unless you can afford a £45,000 plus Tesla you have the inconvenience of the dysfunctional U.K. charging network, umpteen companies and payment systems and questionable reliability.
Even electric cars will produce some CO2 during their manufacture and until our electricity comes from 100% renewables there is a CO2 element to their operation. And being so heavy, the road network will suffer.
Of course the true green solution is a combination of less travel and when you do, use public transport. But I doubt that will appeal to users of this Honda forum!
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I was watching James May's 'cars of the people' yesterday and he went into hydrogen car power.
By all accounts the car/engine build is easy, available now, has been around for decades, just needs a nationwide infrastructure at petrol stations and fill ups are around 3 minutes like petrol/diesel.
Surely easier to setup than rewiring lampposts and the like and having to wait hours to fully charge once you get to a charger.
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The technology may be available, but the bulk production and distribution of hydrogen is not. Also, there’s talk of using hydrogen for home heating, though the changeover from gas would not be as easy as the change from town’s gas to natural gas was. The idea of cooking on hydrogen is a bit daunting, but perhaps it will come.
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I heard that the generation of hydrogen is very energy intensive. Nuclear powered cars anyone?
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So James over simplified it.
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I heard that the generation of hydrogen is very energy intensive. Nuclear powered cars anyone?
Apparently there's an excess of generation capacity on Orkney beyond what the grid feeds can handle and they're using it to generate hydrogen (presumably from seawater).
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The technology may be available, but the bulk production and distribution of hydrogen is not. Also, there’s talk of using hydrogen for home heating, though the changeover from gas would not be as easy as the change from town’s gas to natural gas was. The idea of cooking on hydrogen is a bit daunting, but perhaps it will come.
Think you need to update yourself here. There was talk of Hydrogen in another thread. Distribution of hydrogen and changeover from Natural Gas is already happening in test areas. It will be easier than the switch from Town Gas as most modern appliances are already designed to run on Hydrogen.
Edit to add this link to the thread on Hydrogen...
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=13503.msg104141#msg104141
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I don't think you will be cooking on 100% hydrogen gas!
I believe it is a blend of 20% hydrogen and 80% natural gas.
I believe hydrogen was also blended with coal gas in the days of the Empire.
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I believe hydrogen was also blended with coal gas in the days of the Empire.
Hydrogen was a natural component of coal gas-
Composition (from Wiki)-
hydrogen 50%
methane 35%
carbon monoxide 10%
ethylene 5%
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The technology may be available, but the bulk production and distribution of hydrogen is not. Also, there’s talk of using hydrogen for home heating, though the changeover from gas would not be as easy as the change from town’s gas to natural gas was. The idea of cooking on hydrogen is a bit daunting, but perhaps it will come.
Think you need to update yourself here. There was talk of Hydrogen in another thread. Distribution of hydrogen and changeover from Natural Gas is already happening in test areas. It will be easier than the switch from Town Gas as most modern appliances are already designed to run on Hydrogen.
Edit to add this link to the thread on Hydrogen...
https://clubjazz.org/forum/index.php?topic=13503.msg104141#msg104141
Thanks for adding the link to the other thread.
Sorry to contradict but the change from town gas to natural gas was easier than any forthcoming change in that in the previous change only the burners had to be changed. Most modern appliances are not yet hydrogen-ready but hydrogen-ready options are available at extra cost.
I don't think you will be cooking on 100% hydrogen gas!
I believe it is a blend of 20% hydrogen and 80% natural gas.
I believe hydrogen was also blended with coal gas in the days of the Empire.
The only scary thing about cookers using hydrogen is that the flame is invisible. (presumably an additive would be added to colour the flame)
According to Worcester Bosch most appliances have been ready to burn on an 80/20 mixture since 2000
https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/hydrogen-blend-boilers
The target is to ultimately run on hydrogen.
https://www.theengineer.co.uk/converting-the-gas-network-to-hydrogen/
https://www.dnv.com/oilgas/perspectives/switching-city-from-natural-gas-to-hydrogen.html
Town gas contained a mixture of carbon monoxide and hydrogen because of the way it was made
3C (i.e., coal) + O2 + H2O → H2 + 3CO
Edit added second link
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Most modern appliances are not yet hydrogen-ready but hydrogen-ready options are available at extra cost.
According to Worcester Bosch most appliances have been ready to burn on an 80/20 mixture since 2000
I'm confused now. Maybe in the first comment you are referring to gas hobs and fires, and in the second you are referring to boilers?
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I think hydrogen- ready means ready for conversion to 100% hydrogen rather than an 80/20 mixture.
There was an interview with a representative from WB on the other thread.
edit added link
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This thread seems to have strayed from the original topic. (several times) ???
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Hi Guys
This afternoon I filled up, from nearly empty, for the first time with E10 (BP) fuel, and then did my usual trip to Stratford-on-avon and return.
Total Mileage - 37.8miles
Consumption - 81.3mpg.
So, it would seem that a diet of E10 makes No, or Minimal difference to the performance of the Mk 4 Jazz
See attached photo.
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This thread seems to have strayed from the original topic. (several times) ???
Unfortunately I have to wade through nonsense about hydrogen, gas and oil.
I think the clue is in the title.
E5 or E10
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I agree it does not seem to make any difference .. :)
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Apparently pure E10 (it may take a while for old E5 mixed in the station tanks to be all used up) drops performance and MPG by 1-4%.
Many people won’t notice this difference.
I always use V power in my cars, which should be staying E5.
There’s a huge amount of discussion about whether 95RON or 97/99RON makes any difference but no definitive answer.
On all the hybrid cars I’ve owned, running on V power makes it smoother at the higher revs needed when joining a fast road with the eCVT type cars.
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On all the hybrid cars I’ve owned, running on V power makes it smoother at the higher revs needed when joining a fast road with the eCVT type cars.
But the i-MMD isn't like other hybrid cars.
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On all the hybrid cars I’ve owned, running on V power makes it smoother at the higher revs needed when joining a fast road with the eCVT type cars.
But the i-MMD isn't like other hybrid cars.
It's similar in that at full power you are at maximum revs - the difference in the Jazz is that it is generating electricity to send to the motor whereas in other hybrids it's being mixed in with the electric motor through a type of gearbox.
My petrol station is at the bottom of a 70mph hill, to rejoin the road you need maximum acceleration from 0-70mph while going uphill so you are at full power/maximum revs the whole time.
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I must be running on nearly 90% or so E10 at the moment having stopped buying premium to see if I could notice any difference. At the moment I genuinely can't tell.
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I am getting 500 miles between fill ups. My nearest garage is Shell so I will stick to their V power E5. It is about 10p litre more expensive but I will recoup some of that through their loyalty scheme and a slight improvement in fuel consumption and maybe performance. The extra cost over a year’s motoring will be negligible compared to depreciation and other costs.
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I am getting 500 miles between fill ups. My nearest garage is Shell so I will stick to their V power E5. It is about 10p litre more expensive but I will recoup some of that through their loyalty scheme and a slight improvement in fuel consumption and maybe performance. The extra cost over a year’s motoring will be negligible compared to depreciation and other costs.
I do a very low mileage so V Power wouldn't break the bank. I've never actually tried it as I would have to go out of my to get it. I must give it a go because I do hear good things.
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I've always gone for the supermarket cheap unleaded and my high mileage 2003 Jazz ran beautifully. After the drop in octane in early September, I filled with E10 not understanding what the change meant. After a few hundred miles the emissions light started flashing on the dashboard then went steady. Scary! I followed the manual advice, then called the RAC. The test sensor indicated a misfire on cylinder 2, while the engine ran smooth with no pinging, rocking or knocks, and I was told to use E5. I was also shown the note inside the filler flap that indicates to use a 95 octane fuel. E5 I believe. It was doing fine on pre-ethenol fuel.
After a search online for information, I was so confused I phoned my local dealership and asked their advice and was told E10 was ok to use.
So I have no further understanding as to what is best. E5 is horribly expensive and I feel we older Jazz owners who take good care of our efficient cars are being penalised. Can I still use E10? Can I mix E10 and E5 in the same tank? Should I fill with one than when empty, fill with the other? What is the best option for my fine old Jazz? I feel it has many many more miles in it.
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May help!
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I don't understand the fuss around E5/E10. More than half of Europe has been driving on E10 for quite some time and... without any problem!
Read this:
Which cars will it work in?
Most of them. The government said more than 95 per cent of petrol vehicles can run on E10 fuel. An impact assessment carried out by the DfT last year estimated 600,000 cars and motorcycles would not be compatible.
All Ford cars made since 1992 are compatible, bar a 2003-2007 model of Mondeo. All BMW models are compatible. As are all Volvos, Nissans, Citroens, Hondas, Peugeots and Minis made from 2000 onwards. Land Rovers from 1996 and almost all Toyotas from 1998 will run. Saab has been making all its cars compatible since the mid-1980s. Volkswagen since 2007. Audi since 2009.
In short, most cars by most brands will run on E10 fuel. If in doubt, the government has a tool for checking compatibility online. Highly recommended for drivers of classic cars and brands not mentioned above, such as Fiats.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/e10-fuel-uk-vehicles-compatibility-cars-b1913944.html
...and this:
https://check-vehicle-compatibility-e10-petrol.service.gov.uk/
Honda
All Honda cars with fuel injection are compatible with E10 petrol (HONDA PGM-FI).
All Honda cars that do not use fuel injection should continue to use E5.
And as for fuel economy: 1 (ONE) Beaufort more (or less) headwind (do you have an anemometer on your car?) makes a bigger difference than E5 or E10.
So in practice you really won't notice it, and if you do, it's probably something in your mind...
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May help!
#It's the same the whole World over---#
Politicians pay lip service to the environment while making money for themselves and their rich industrialist backers.
For Manildra substitute Ineos.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58642266
https://www.clientearth.org/the-greenwashing-files/ineos/
I don't understand the fuss around E5/E10. More than half of Europe has been driving on E10 for quite some time and... without any problem!
As far as performance of cars goes it will make little difference.
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We are stuck with ethanol not because it is beneficial to the environment ( quite the reverse ) but because many years ago the powerful corn lobby in USA decided they needed to make more money by turning corn into fuel. Of course the unquestioning climate change sheep governments went along with it because they latch onto such things, just like diesel all over again. Just wait for ethanolgate in a few years...
https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/2017-1-january-february/grapple/are-we-stuck-corn-ethanol-forever-big-ag-would-us-think-so
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News announced today. It's not going to affect any Honda Jazz, but if you have other cars it could do.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-set-for-september-2021-launch
List of petrol vehicles compatible with using “E10” https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/130329_%28revised%29_ALL_ACEA_SAAB_JAMA_E10_COMPATIBILITY.pdf
thing is grant shapps cant see a problem with E28 as Brazil uses it, this plank doesn't know much about cars as every one will need replacing as no car in the uk can use E28. even california uses E10. the sooner these idiots are gone the better. E10 should be the last change to uk fuel we see but they will still try more and more crap
and by 2030 they want europe to be using E20 and honda cant use that so what then? scrap all the cars in the country? they are really stupid
Yes, but scrapping cars is good for the economy, innit. The sooner you scrap them the sooner you have to spend money on a replacement and that's great for a public sector index linked pension....
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I think that E10 is the thin end of the wedge ( well that would be E5 ) to destroy ICE engines and speed up the move to EV.... next thing to be added to fuel may be sulphuric acid, and we will be told 'it reduces harmful emissions' ( yeah right, an engine that will no longer start and run will have very few emissions.)
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I think that E10 is the thin end of the wedge ( well that would be E5 ) to destroy ICE engines and speed up the move to EV.... next thing to be added to fuel may be sulphuric acid, and we will be told 'it reduces harmful emissions' ( yeah right, an engine that will no longer start and run will have very few emissions.)
Um. No. Fuels are marketed as low sulfur for a reason. Think of the trees.
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I think that E10 is the thin end of the wedge ( well that would be E5 ) to destroy ICE engines and speed up the move to EV.... next thing to be added to fuel may be sulphuric acid, and we will be told 'it reduces harmful emissions' ( yeah right, an engine that will no longer start and run will have very few emissions.)
Um. No. Fuels are marketed as low sulfur for a reason. Think of the trees.
LOL, thinking about how good sulphuric acid would be for the fuel system - it is the acid bit, nothing to do with sulphur, just commenting on the lunacy of politicians. Can you get environmentally friendly low sulphur sulphuric acid ?
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When fuel contained lead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead it also contained "scavengers" to carry most of the lead out of the exhaust as volatile compounds to prevent too much being deposited and forming excessive crud on valves etc.
The compounds used were generally halogen bearing (chlorine and bromine) which would form highly acidic condensate in cool exhausts. That was why exhausts lasted such a short time when we had leaded fuels, they rotted out from the inside. It also ate spark plug electrodes.
The lead compounds produced with the scavengers were generally pale grey/white in colour, which is why the exhausts looked whitish at the tailpipe. When lead was removed the tailpipe no longer had the white deposits from the lead and people (incorrectly) thought unleaded fuel made the engine run rich because the tailpipe now just looked dusty brown.
A decent modern petrol engine with catalyst exhaust running correctly results in essentially no tailpipe deposits.
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A decent modern petrol engine with catalyst exhaust running correctly results in essentially no tailpipe deposits.
You can see how clean the tailpipes are, even after years of use.
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Oh dear.
Just read an item (home page news clips, unfortunately it thinks I want to see Daily Express stuff, this item about E10 fuel so I thought let's see what it is).
Complaint that a car is using "15%" more fuel. Someone complaining that shortly after filling with E10 his car's check-engine light came on. Fuel trim was now 35%, filled with E5 and the fuel trim was then 20% and the check-engine light went off.
Now, the trim doesn't mean 15% more fuel is being used. They comment that 20% trim is still too high but not enough to flag a fault, fine. Turns out the PCV valve had failed (crankcase breather, I assume it was thus letting in too much un-metered air through to the intake, hence the high fuel trim values).
So, putting E10 fuel in resulted in a system component which had already failed being identified and presumably fixed. Typical absolute rubbish story.
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Oh dear.
Just read an item (home page news clips, unfortunately it thinks I want to see Daily Express stuff, this item about E10 fuel so I thought let's see what it is).
Complaint that a car is using "15%" more fuel. Someone complaining that shortly after filling with E10 his car's check-engine light came on. Fuel trim was now 35%, filled with E5 and the fuel trim was then 20% and the check-engine light went off.
Now, the trim doesn't mean 15% more fuel is being used. They comment that 20% trim is still too high but not enough to flag a fault, fine. Turns out the PCV valve had failed (crankcase breather, I assume it was thus letting in too much un-metered air through to the intake, hence the high fuel trim values).
So, putting E10 fuel in resulted in a system component which had already failed being identified and presumably fixed. Typical absolute rubbish story.
What; something in the Daily Express that wasn't accurate!?
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Here is an interesting video about Ethanol in fuel and why you really need fuel injection for ethanol fuel mixes
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The Daily Express has a lot to answer for :-(
Meanwhile, in Europe, no one sees what the fuss is all about...
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Here is an interesting video about Ethanol in fuel and why you really need fuel injection for ethanol fuel mixes
....
I like his videos, and they are usually 99% correct. One or 2 things I'd differ on.
He quickly and superficially writes an equation for the chemical combustion and comes up with 12.5:1 (ish). That's an atom count, it's not the way stoichiometric ratio is usually represented, which is by mass. For "regular gasoline" that's around 14.7:1 air to fuel by mass. He's not wrong as such, but his count version is not the same as the standardised mass version, just to avoid some possible confusion. (Why does this book say 14.7 when he said it was 12.5?)
Carbs needing a full rebuild every 4 weeks on ethanol blended fuel? Really? I haven't needed to do that yet. Either Harley are junk or the fuel he's using is cack (or both?).
Right at the end he describes fuel injection as being introduced so that it would allow different fuels in the future. That really isn't the reason for it. He says carburettors (...ers) "work a treat", well they don't really. They work, but not "a treat". Control of A/F with differing conditions is usually pretty non-existent, carb tuning is very much a compromise and an approximation under nearly all conditions. Transient A/F control is generally appalling, rich excursions during fast transients are huge resulting in dreadful HC/CO emissions. They usually have to be set rich to avoid lean stumbles/misfires etc. As said, they work, sort of, but not a treat.
Otherwise entertaining and educational.
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Right at the end he describes fuel injection as being introduced so that it would allow different fuels in the future. That really isn't the reason for it.
It was found to be an excellent idea to counteract the wrong sort of g-forces in aircraft.
Also worthy of consideration... Miss Shilling's orifice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Shilling%27s_orifice
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Rolls Royce did experiment with fuel injection on Merlin before WW2, but decided against it as it resulted in lower power output. Remember DB601 engine in BF109 was 34 litre against 27 litres for Merlin, it was not until Griffon that RR capacity caught up with DB engine, at about 36 litres. Fuel injection then was pretty crude, with no mapping - just mechanical linkages controlled by inlet vacuum. Later Merlins and Griffon had a 'pressurised carburettor' which completely solved the negative G problem, and which was like a throttle body fuel injection system.
http://www.griffonmerlin.com/2010/09/30/why-did-rolls-royce-merlin-have-a-carburettor-when-the-daimler-benz-had-fuel-injection/
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It was found to be an excellent idea to counteract the wrong sort of g-forces in aircraft.
That is why in old wartime footage the Spitfires and Hurricanes roll onto their backs to dive and the Messerschmitt Bf 109 just sticks the nose down. Turning on their backs keeps the fuel in the float chamber (it's not just for interesting filming).
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News announced today. It's not going to affect any Honda Jazz, but if you have other cars it could do.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-set-for-september-2021-launch
List of petrol vehicles compatible with using “E10” https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/130329_%28revised%29_ALL_ACEA_SAAB_JAMA_E10_COMPATIBILITY.pdf
thing is grant shapps cant see a problem with E28 as Brazil uses it, this plank doesn't know much about cars as every one will need replacing as no car in the uk can use E28. even california uses E10. the sooner these idiots are gone the better. E10 should be the last change to uk fuel we see but they will still try more and more crap
and by 2030 they want europe to be using E20 and honda cant use that so what then? scrap all the cars in the country? they are really stupid
Late reply I know, but by 2030 most of the cars on the road today will be gone. Likely all mk1 and mk2 Jazz's will be long gone and a new generation of car will be out that CAN use E28. If E28 does come to the UK the car manufactures will know about it long before and will build their vehicles accordingly.
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... by 2030 most of the cars on the road today will be gone ... and a new generation of car will be out that CAN use E28.
Seems highly unlikely, given that new ICEs will be banned by 2030 (and hybrids not long after). Why would manufacturers invest in developing new engines that are about to be banned? The only market for petrol after 2030 will be for legacy engines, and that will be declining. More likely is they’ll invest in EVs, as VW & Toyota are doing.
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I agree.
I can't see E28 being introduced here.
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I agree.
I can't see E28 being introduced here.
It will be if the corn lobby have their way..... They don't care about the planet, all they care about is market share and money in the bank.
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We are more likely to move toward e-fuels
https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/1040_Aramco_E-fuels_20201006.pdf
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Even if cars can't use it !
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We are more likely to move toward e-fuels
https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/1040_Aramco_E-fuels_20201006.pdf
Say what you like about fossil fuels they have saved the planet from eco-system destruction so far. Imagine trying to supply the massive energy needs of civilisation from trees and plants, every tree and everything that could be burned would have disappeared, and all the soil washed away ( 10,000 years ago much of the Sahara was green and had large lakes, maybe the trees got chopped down for fuel and farmland and it turned into desert ) - using charcoal to produce iron was never going to scale up very much. As it is, using farmland to grow fuels and burning and felling rainforest to grow fuels is lunacy wrapped up in idiocy. Today is an object lesson on how totally unreliable renewable energy is, with 25GW installed wind and 14GW installed solar we are getting around 1.5GW from them combined, or less than 5% of requirements, and it is not even cold today.
It says in this article the climate changed, without mans involvement... Oooh Errrr
https://www.livescience.com/4180-sahara-desert-lush-populated.html
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News announced today. It's not going to affect any Honda Jazz, but if you have other cars it could do.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-set-for-september-2021-launch
List of petrol vehicles compatible with using “E10” https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/130329_%28revised%29_ALL_ACEA_SAAB_JAMA_E10_COMPATIBILITY.pdf
thing is grant shapps cant see a problem with E28 as Brazil uses it, this plank doesn't know much about cars as every one will need replacing as no car in the uk can use E28. even california uses E10. the sooner these idiots are gone the better. E10 should be the last change to uk fuel we see but they will still try more and more crap
and by 2030 they want europe to be using E20 and honda cant use that so what then? scrap all the cars in the country? they are really stupid
Late reply I know, but by 2030 most of the cars on the road today will be gone. Likely all mk1 and mk2 Jazz's will be long gone and a new generation of car will be out that CAN use E28. If E28 does come to the UK the car manufactures will know about it long before and will build their vehicles accordingly.
It will be interesting to see what the mix of vehicles on UK Roads will be on 1st January 2030. Whilst EV sales have risen dramatically in percentage terms it's from a very low base and most analysts believe it will actually be impossible to produce enough EVs to replace all ICE cars by that date.
There are a number of estimates out there but they all tend to coalesce around the following scenario. On 1st January 2030 there will be around 10 to 11 million pure EVs and 21 million ICE cars. In short, two thirds of the cars will still be ICE although a significant number will be hybrids of one sort or another. Clearly this will continue to change and there won't be that many ICE cars still around by 2040. Given my age, all this is pretty academic. I don't expect, if I'm still here, to have too much difficulty finding petrol in 2030.
I think it follows that manufacturers won't be producing a new generation of ICE cars that can use E85 or whatever. It simply isn't worth it - we are witnessing the death of the ICE car but it will be a lingering one.
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News announced today. It's not going to affect any Honda Jazz, but if you have other cars it could do.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-set-for-september-2021-launch
List of petrol vehicles compatible with using “E10” https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/130329_%28revised%29_ALL_ACEA_SAAB_JAMA_E10_COMPATIBILITY.pdf
thing is grant shapps cant see a problem with E28 as Brazil uses it, this plank doesn't know much about cars as every one will need replacing as no car in the uk can use E28. even california uses E10. the sooner these idiots are gone the better. E10 should be the last change to uk fuel we see but they will still try more and more crap
and by 2030 they want europe to be using E20 and honda cant use that so what then? scrap all the cars in the country? they are really stupid
Late reply I know, but by 2030 most of the cars on the road today will be gone. Likely all mk1 and mk2 Jazz's will be long gone and a new generation of car will be out that CAN use E28. If E28 does come to the UK the car manufactures will know about it long before and will build their vehicles accordingly.
My Jazz will be only 18 years old by 2030.
I suspect I will be still be capable of driving it as well being only 83.
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My Jazz will be only 18 years old by 2030.
I suspect I will be still be capable of driving it as well being only 83.
You're assuming it will still be around in 9 years time though. A lot can happen to a car in 9 years.
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News announced today. It's not going to affect any Honda Jazz, but if you have other cars it could do.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-set-for-september-2021-launch
List of petrol vehicles compatible with using “E10” https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/130329_%28revised%29_ALL_ACEA_SAAB_JAMA_E10_COMPATIBILITY.pdf
thing is grant shapps cant see a problem with E28 as Brazil uses it, this plank doesn't know much about cars as every one will need replacing as no car in the uk can use E28. even california uses E10. the sooner these idiots are gone the better. E10 should be the last change to uk fuel we see but they will still try more and more crap
and by 2030 they want europe to be using E20 and honda cant use that so what then? scrap all the cars in the country? they are really stupid
Late reply I know, but by 2030 most of the cars on the road today will be gone. Likely all mk1 and mk2 Jazz's will be long gone and a new generation of car will be out that CAN use E28. If E28 does come to the UK the car manufactures will know about it long before and will build their vehicles accordingly.
It will be interesting to see what the mix of vehicles on UK Roads will be on 1st January 2030. Whilst EV sales have risen dramatically in percentage terms it's from a very low base and most analysts believe it will actually be impossible to produce enough EVs to replace all ICE cars by that date.
There are a number of estimates out there but they all tend to coalesce around the following scenario. On 1st January 2030 there will be around 10 to 11 million pure EVs and 21 million ICE cars. In short, two thirds of the cars will still be ICE although a significant number will be hybrids of one sort or another. Clearly this will continue to change and there won't be that many ICE cars still around by 2040. Given my age, all this is pretty academic. I don't expect, if I'm still here, to have too much difficulty finding petrol in 2030.
I think it follows that manufacturers won't be producing a new generation of ICE cars that can use E85 or whatever. It simply isn't worth it - we are witnessing the death of the ICE car but it will be a lingering one.
Personally, I don't think the whole stopping sales of ICE cars by 2030 will happen. The public just aren't interested and for good reason. I think they government will have a major issue in 2030 especially if you're 1/2 third split is corrcect.