Author Topic: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.  (Read 15719 times)

JimSh

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #270 on: March 15, 2022, 04:43:56 PM »


If renewables are one thing, they are unreliable,  another thing is that they are very weak energy streams, returning a small amount of energy for the amount of space they occupy... Renewables are virtue signalling writ large, they are nowhere near reliable enough to run an economy, and although supposedly cheap once up and running it is the fact that the operators get paid whether they they generate or not that has upped our electricity bills by at least 25%.  It has been rumoured that many farms are deliberately built in areas with no real grid connection because then the owners can get paid without worrying about generating that electrical stuff...

Renewables are already cheaper than fossil fuels.
Fossil fuels are more heavily subsidsed than renewables.(see attachment)
Governments are being controlled by "Big Oil"
Granted renewables need backup.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/59233799
https://www.juneauempire.com/opinion/opinion-investing-in-clean-energy-is-key-to-true-energy-independence/
https://ourworldindata.org/cheap-renewables-growth

Edit added third link
« Last Edit: March 15, 2022, 05:01:29 PM by JimSh »

culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #271 on: March 16, 2022, 09:03:10 AM »
The realities of fusion

'Physics is mathematics confined by reality,  engineering is physics confined by money'

Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #272 on: March 16, 2022, 10:02:00 AM »
The heavily subsidised 'renewables' in UK,  energy prices in USA are a fraction of ours, they have 'proper' energy security,  but we do not.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10366275/ROSS-CLARK-DOES-green-tax-energy-bill-actually-pay-for.html
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #273 on: March 25, 2022, 05:32:26 PM »
For the last 6 days wind power been <5% of UK demand,  for the last 3 days been about 3% - in comparison coal has been almost 5%.   Boris has said he wants 6 large nuclear stations in operation before 2050,  I think Ukraine has concentrated people minds on the basic fact that without reliable energy the west is 'well and truly stuffed'....
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

JimSh

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #274 on: March 28, 2022, 02:53:31 PM »
  I think Ukraine has concentrated people minds on the basic fact that without reliable energy the west is 'well and truly stuffed'....
On the other hand - If we weren't so reliant on fossil fuels we wouldn't be so stuffed.
Lots to think about in this essay.

In a World on Fire, Stop Burning Things

https://www.newyorker.com/news/essay/in-a-world-on-fire-stop-burning-things?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #275 on: March 28, 2022, 03:43:00 PM »
  I think Ukraine has concentrated people minds on the basic fact that without reliable energy the west is 'well and truly stuffed'....
On the other hand - If we weren't so reliant on fossil fuels we wouldn't be so stuffed.
Lots to think about in this essay.

In a World on Fire, Stop Burning Things

https://www.newyorker.com/news/essay/in-a-world-on-fire-stop-burning-things?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

Wind power has been below 5% for last 7 days, and this morning 0.45% - while gas was 60%... lets face it renewables are far too unreliable to run a country and have to be backed up 100% by other more reliable stuff like gas and nuclear.  Renewables were a good experiment,  but have proved to be not up to the job.  Remember installed capacity of fans on sticks in UK is north of 25GW,  and solar above 14GW.. do they ever produce anything like that, can pigs fly ?
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

John Ratsey

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #276 on: March 28, 2022, 04:15:44 PM »
Renewables are OK if paired with storage. We lack enough of the latter although I believe there's an arrangement with Norway https://northsealink.com/en/the-project/why-connect-norway-and-the-uk/ (currently running at half capacity) which supplements storage within UK. In addition to storage which generates electricity, intermittent renewables can be used to create fuel such as hydrogen which can be stored.

culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #277 on: March 28, 2022, 04:28:15 PM »
Renewables are OK if paired with storage. We lack enough of the latter although I believe there's an arrangement with Norway https://northsealink.com/en/the-project/why-connect-norway-and-the-uk/ (currently running at half capacity) which supplements storage within UK. In addition to storage which generates electricity, intermittent renewables can be used to create fuel such as hydrogen which can be stored.

Making Hydrogen is not very efficient, and is an energy carrier rather than a fuel and you get less out than you put in.  Hydrogen is also difficult to store, as energy required to compress it...  Fuel cells about 60% efficient but if you factor in the other inefficiencies in making and storing it the end result may be you get 40% of the electricity back that you used to make it.  Hydrogen may be better for lorries where the massive weight of the battery (12,000 KG ) makes a big difference to the actual load the truck can carry, and the recharge time is considerable.  A hydrogen fuel cell and storage tank will be a lot lighter, and refueling time very short.  If only lorries use hydrogen there will be less need for a great many refueling points..
« Last Edit: March 28, 2022, 08:53:43 PM by culzean »
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Bazzzer

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #278 on: March 28, 2022, 06:06:39 PM »
I saw this the other day at Milford Haven.


Neil Ives

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #279 on: April 07, 2022, 09:31:28 AM »
Some interesting stuff here.

BBC News - Energy strategy: UK plans eight new nuclear reactors to boost production
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61010605
Neil Ives

embee

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #280 on: April 07, 2022, 12:08:20 PM »
Perhaps I'm just being my usual cynical self, but I rather get the impression this is a government "must be seen to be doing something" wish-list rather than a strategic plan.
For example, are there actually any proposals/studies for where these nuclear stations will be placed, who will build them (i.e. will it be the French or the Chinese?), how long will it take (always twice as long as originally suggested and costs ten times as much as the first "wet finger in the air" estimate).

I remember going to a road-show for HS2 back in 2010 (I think). The costing was £30bn and ph.1 completion 2025. That's now £100bn and 2033.
Hinkley Point C anyone?

madasafish

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #281 on: April 07, 2022, 03:17:44 PM »
Perhaps I'm just being my usual cynical self, but I rather get the impression this is a government "must be seen to be doing something" wish-list rather than a strategic plan.
For example, are there actually any proposals/studies for where these nuclear stations will be placed, who will build them (i.e. will it be the French or the Chinese?), how long will it take (always twice as long as originally suggested and costs ten times as much as the first "wet finger in the air" estimate).

I remember going to a road-show for HS2 back in 2010 (I think). The costing was £30bn and ph.1 completion 2025. That's now £100bn and 2033.
Hinkley Point C anyone?

I believe they plan to place some on existing nuclear sites, thus speeding up planning permission.Some may be small RR plants.

It's the  usual "we had a strategy last year of heat pumps" before we had done any sums.. and now "we have done the sums find that heat pumps mena a HUGE increase in electricity demand."## And we have had weeks before and after Christmas when wind produced half of nothing for weeks on end  - so we need more electricity production when there is no wind.
And add in a Government composed apparently of innumerate people who don't like taking a long view and do not understand science. And dislike Planning.

## for each 4GW of Heat pump energy installed we need an EXTRA 1GW of electricity to drive the heat pumps. Now that has been known for decades but  for last year's Climate Conference ,the UK had NO reliable plans to provide that. (Reliable as in works 24/7/365.)

The National Grid also claimed we needed no "Base load" . Guess what nucs give? Base Load.
Bunch of clueless amateurs.


Jocko

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #282 on: April 07, 2022, 04:21:48 PM »
Watching a thing about wind generators this morning and a lady from Scottish Power said it takes one year to build an onshore field and two to build an offshore field but 5 times that to jump through the hoops to get permission to start.
She also pointed out that Scotland is the windiest place in Europe, something Scots have known forever.

JimSh

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #283 on: April 07, 2022, 04:39:53 PM »
Perhaps I'm just being my usual cynical self, but I rather get the impression this is a government "must be seen to be doing something" wish-list rather than a strategic plan.
They don't actually do anything. They just talk about doing impossible things.

Alice laughed. “There’s no use trying,” she said: “one can’t believe impossible things.”

“I daresay you haven’t had much practice,” said the Queen. “When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/apr/06/major-misjudgement-how-the-tories-got-their-energy-strategy-so-wrong.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2022, 05:17:42 PM by JimSh »

embee

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #284 on: April 07, 2022, 05:56:14 PM »
.....I believe they plan to place some on existing nuclear sites, thus speeding up planning permission.Some may be small RR plants.


As far as I can find, there are no example RR SMR plants actually existing, various news articles, quote from May 2021 https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases/2021/17-05-2021-more-power-and-updated-design-revealed-as-nuclear-power-team-targets-first-place.aspx
"It has also announced it is aiming to be the first design to be assessed by regulators in the second half of 2021 in the newly-opened assessment window, which will keep it on track to complete its first unit in the early 2030s and build up to 10 by 2035."
(my bold text).

They use phrases like "off the shelf components". My guess is that will be bricks, everything else concerned with military/aerospace/nuclear/medical industries is specialised and costs £££££ in my experience.

Now I have great respect for RR, but I also recognise press release content when I see it. Sure they'll do it, but on time and to cost? I won't bet my pension on it and I wouldn't base a strategic energy plan on it.

When in industry I learnt the one thing you don't do is commit to a hard plan with a specified job#1 date when you include unproven technology. It always bites you in the bum. That was one of the principles I found typical of the Japanese suppliers, they did all the R&D up front and when they knew all the answers they would commit it to production, and not before.

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