Author Topic: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.  (Read 15716 times)

JimSh

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #255 on: January 17, 2022, 06:58:09 PM »
More windpower without storage is a recipe for disaster.
(and I hope that the generators don't get paid for turning off the turbines when there is excess generation).
No need to turn them off if there is enough storage.
see 0-8min https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0013ptb/reporting-scotland-evening-news-17012022
Edit added BBC reporting Scotland link
last edit Changed lunchtime news link to longer evening news link
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 08:08:48 PM by JimSh »

JimSh

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #256 on: January 17, 2022, 11:32:08 PM »
Unbelievable !!!
( Well not really)

This is how the story about the floating wind turbines is interpreted by the Daily Express ---

"Sturgeon bolsters her Indy war chest! Nicola rakes in £700m as vote threat looms"

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1551587/nicola-sturgeon-Scotland-national-party-indyref-vote-referendum-vote-threat-looms


The Telegraph is a bit more measured

"Nicola Sturgeon reaps £700m from auction to triple UK's offshore wind power
Shell, BP and Scottish Power want to build more floating and fixed turbines but face opposition from fishermen and conservationists "

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/01/17/nicola-sturgeon-reaps-700m-auction-triple-uk-wind-power/


richardfrost

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #257 on: February 09, 2022, 12:36:46 PM »
Promising news on Nuclear Fusion today. I remember JET opening in 1984 and them saying it could be 40 years before the Fusion problem was solved. Still another 30 years to go I reckon before we can expect the first genuine Fusion power stations to come online.

Story is everywhere but this BBC story seems quite succinct...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-60312633

Jocko

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #258 on: February 09, 2022, 03:08:41 PM »
I saw that today. I see they are talking about Fracking again and going the North Sea oil and gas route. We need to be self-sufficient in gas if nothing else. We should be building nuclear power stations up and down the country.

richardfrost

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #259 on: February 09, 2022, 03:29:01 PM »
I agree. As a stop gap measure.

I also believe coal is an option to fill the gap. It must be feasible to mine it safely and burn it with carbon capture in place much more effectively than imported it from South America where it is mined by children, or bringing in fabricated wood pellets from former slave plantations in the USA.

But for me, wave and tidal is the huge opportunity we are missing. We are an island, we have estuaries and firths with some of the greatest tidal ranges on the planet. It is free, reliable energy driven by the moon and the sun, and is carbon free from the point of capture.

madasafish

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #260 on: February 09, 2022, 03:51:36 PM »
Promising news on Nuclear Fusion today. I remember JET opening in 1984 and them saying it could be 40 years before the Fusion problem was solved. Still another 30 years to go I reckon before we can expect the first genuine Fusion power stations to come online.

Story is everywhere but this BBC story seems quite succinct...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-60312633

30 years to the first station on line?

It has taken 25 years to break the prior energy output record - set in 1995.
On the basis that the rest of the task is to get the power to be produced for at least 20 years non stop rather than the 5 seconds achieved,  then 100 years sounds more credible.

In reality, fusion power is now where nuclear power was in 1900 - 42 years before the first nuclear reactor ran under Fermi in December 1942.

richardfrost

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #261 on: February 09, 2022, 04:31:57 PM »
In reality, fusion power is now where nuclear power was in 1900 - 42 years before the first nuclear reactor ran under Fermi in December 1942.
I disagree. They have been working on Fusion for a long time already. If Fusion produced weapons grade waste material, you can bet your bottom dollar it would be a lot nearer than it is now. However, the need to do something to offset fossil fuel usage will become an increasingly important validation of the need for this technology. We need to prioritise science now. It is the future.

culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #262 on: February 10, 2022, 07:48:55 AM »
Quote from an article

With the announcement of new drilling licences for oil companies in the North Sea, political reality is finally beginning to dawn on the government with regard to its Net Zero deadline.  It also exposes the absurdity of its previous policy position according to Philip Johnston in today’s Telegraph 08.02.22:

 “The prospect of new licences in the North Sea marks a significant political push-back against net zero, with Rishi Sunak, the Chancellor, and Kwasi Kwarteng, the Business Secretary, seemingly determined to make the policy more rational and voter-friendly.

 Some of the more unrealistic targets for phasing out petrol cars or banning gas boilers need to be revisited as well. In any case, the UK is able to claim a fall in CO2 emissions in part because it outsources them elsewhere. Refusing to exploit our own reserves of gas while importing it from countries that have no renewable energy to speak of is mendacious. Continuing to import goods from countries that still burn vast amounts of coal surely does not help the planet in any way. In these circumstances, it is idiotic to withhold approval to exploit Britain’s own oil and gas supplies in the North Sea, even if it does turn out to be the last hurrah for what was once seen as the nation’s economic salvation.”

 According to Johnston, the U-turn marks the culmination of a thoroughly ill-thought through energy policy which goes back decades.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2022, 07:50:28 AM by culzean »
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Kremmen

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #263 on: February 10, 2022, 08:40:46 AM »
It makes sense to me to obtain cheaper local energy whilst future low carbon energy is developed.

Relying on expensive imports causing some other part of the world to benefit whilst the global impact doesn't change is illogical.

Let's be careful out there !

culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #264 on: February 10, 2022, 09:05:38 AM »
It makes sense to me to obtain cheaper local energy whilst future low carbon energy is developed.

Relying on expensive imports causing some other part of the world to benefit whilst the global impact doesn't change is illogical.

I think the Tories have realised that nett zero is toxic to voters, especially with rocketing energy prices.... They are doing it to save the Tories, not save the world.  Having said that it has become obvious even to politicians how unreliable 'renewables' like solar and wind are, so something had to be done to reduce reliance on the unreliable.
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culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #265 on: February 10, 2022, 11:11:46 AM »
This is interesting,  the much trumpeted energy bill help from government is not all it seems....  The cost of typical energy bill is due to rise by £700 a year


Here's a full transcript of Martin's analysis on the Government's new £200 energy loan

"I know there is a lot of confusion about the £200 bill credit loan on energy that's due to start in October and much misunderstanding about it. So I want to talk you through in practice how it will work.

"What will happen is this – in October, on every single electricity bill in England, Scotland and Wales, you will either have your bill reduced by £200, or you'll be given a bill credit. If you're on prepay, they'll pay it through your smart meter or they'll give you a voucher or a cheque.

"This is going to happen. There is no choice about it. It is not optional and it is going to happen automatically on every single bill. Then from the following April, and for five years after that, you will then have your bill automatically – without choice – increased by £40 a year. That is how it will work.

"The best way to think of it is as a form of energy bill levy. We already have levies on energy bills, we all pay a part of our bill which goes towards green infrastructure, whether you have green energy or not. A part of our bill goes towards funding the cost of moving customers whose firm has gone bust to a supplier of last resort. That is a levy added to our bill.

"So what's going to happen here, is in October, we'll have rather strangely a negative levy. They will take £200 off bills. And then each April after that, they will add a £40 levy back on them for five years to recoup the cost.

"There is no personal loan to an individual. This isn't about, you borrowed money, you pay it back. So if you're living at home with parents and you move out in two years' time, even though you didn't get the £200, your bill will still be £40 higher – every household will be charged £40 more. You'll simply get your energy bill and it will be higher because of this levy and the one this October will be lower.

"There's no sort of loan account to an individual or even to a household. It's more a negative levy than a positive levy. Hope that clears it up."

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John Ratsey

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #266 on: February 10, 2022, 08:38:09 PM »
We should be building nuclear power stations up and down the country.
And it will get worse before it gets better as most of the existing nuclear power stations get retired. One shut recently https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jan/07/hunterston-b-nuclear-power-station-retires-after-46-years-in-service, another 1GW goes off-line in the summer https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-60316151.

I also believe coal is an option to fill the gap. It must be feasible to mine it safely and burn it with carbon capture in place much more effectively than imported it from South America where it is mined by children, or bringing in fabricated wood pellets from former slave plantations in the USA.
There's a lot of potential for opencast mining in UK were it acceptable but we'll soon discover that there's a shortage of coal-fired power stations. Perhaps developing some of the already proven gas fields would be a better move as the gas turbines can handle the fluctuating demand (caused by the erratic wind and sun generation) better.

But for me, wave and tidal is the huge opportunity we are missing. We are an island, we have estuaries and firths with some of the greatest tidal ranges on the planet. It is free, reliable energy driven by the moon and the sun, and is carbon free from the point of capture.
I agree. At current energy prices projects such as the Swansea Bay lagoon must look profitable while the Hinkley Point C strike price now looks to be a bargain. However, the environmentalists wouldn't agree to the Severn Barrage even of the lights go out. It's a shame it wasn't built 50 years ago before the environmental lobby developed a loud voice.

We can't rely on getting power from Europe to make up any shortfall. How long before I buy a stand-by generator? It will keep the lights on, the fridge cold and the gas boiler working but wouldn't cope with a heat pump.

culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #267 on: March 15, 2022, 09:18:08 AM »
Interesting video about 'the weak energy stream of renewables' and their meagre output per acre.... as well as the downsides.  Talking about killing birds, many sites in USA ( especially California ) use mirrors to focus the sun onto 'boilers' - the beams from these mirrors frequently set fire to birds ( sometimes whole flocks ) flying through them...



Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

richardfrost

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #268 on: March 15, 2022, 02:43:20 PM »
Interesting video

This has the educational value of The Beano. At one point he actually says "countries such as Africa"! It is the usual string of unsubstantiated 'facts' and opinions. Too hard to watch I'm afraid, so I gave up after 5 minutes.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2022, 05:00:30 PM by richardfrost »

culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #269 on: March 15, 2022, 03:29:54 PM »
Interesting video

This has the educational value of The Beans. At one point he actually says "countries such as Africa"! It is the usual string of unsubstantiated 'facts' and opinions. Too hard to watch I'm afraid, so I gave up after 5 minutes.

If renewables are one thing, they are unreliable,  another thing is that they are very weak energy streams, returning a small amount of energy for the amount of space they occupy... Renewables are virtue signalling writ large, they are nowhere near reliable enough to run an economy, and although supposedly cheap once up and running it is the fact that the operators get paid whether they they generate or not that has upped our electricity bills by at least 25%.  It has been rumoured that many farms are deliberately built in areas with no real grid connection because then the owners can get paid without worrying about generating that electrical stuff...   
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

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