Author Topic: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.  (Read 28715 times)

JimSh

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2021, 03:17:27 PM »

I have an idea. Connect all the BEVs to the Grid and they can keep it running on low wing/sun days. (Yes: it is a suggestion made by others!)


At least a couple of energy suppliers pushing V2G

https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/electric-cars/vehicle-to-grid-technology.html
https://www.edfenergy.com/electric-cars/vehicle-grid
https://octopus.energy/blog/vehicle-to-grid/
https://www.virta.global/vehicle-to-grid-v2g

Edit Added third and fourth link
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 03:31:30 PM by JimSh »

culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2021, 03:31:36 PM »

I have an idea. Connect all the BEVs to the Grid and they can keep it running on low wing/sun days. (Yes: it is a suggestion made by others!)


At least a couple of energy suppliers pushing V2G

https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/electric-cars/vehicle-to-grid-technology.html
https://www.edfenergy.com/electric-cars/vehicle-grid

https://www.virta.global/vehicle-to-grid-v2g

Edit Added third link

So they want to wear your electric car battery out instead of having a sensible energy mix that is 'sustainable' even in cold weather with no wind and allows for charging of electric vehicles,  at the moment despite the huge number of fans on sticks we have cluttering up our countryside and sea we cannot rely on them for anything,  if we could control the weather we may stand a chance, but we can't and because of pie in the sky politicians we are at the mercy of it - just like in the stone age - but I suppose the clueless politicians see that as progress...

This is what happens when you try to ban the use of fossil fuels but have nothing to replace them.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

JimSh

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2021, 03:42:36 PM »

I have an idea. Connect all the BEVs to the Grid and they can keep it running on low wing/sun days. (Yes: it is a suggestion made by others!)


At least a couple of energy suppliers pushing V2G

https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/electric-cars/vehicle-to-grid-technology.html
https://www.edfenergy.com/electric-cars/vehicle-grid

https://www.virta.global/vehicle-to-grid-v2g

Edit Added third link

So they want to wear your electric car battery out instead of having a sensible energy mix that is 'sustainable' even in cold weather with no wind and allows for charging of electric vehicles,  at the moment despite the huge number of fans on sticks we have cluttering up our countryside and sea we cannot rely on them for anything,  if we could control the weather we may stand a chance, but we can't and because of pie in the sky politicians we are at the mercy of it - just like in the stone age - but I suppose the clueless politicians see that as progress...

This is what happens when you try to ban the use of fossil fuels but have nothing to replace them.
I want to avoid using fossil fuels and damaging the environment.

culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2021, 07:24:15 PM »

I have an idea. Connect all the BEVs to the Grid and they can keep it running on low wing/sun days. (Yes: it is a suggestion made by others!)


At least a couple of energy suppliers pushing V2G

https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/electric-cars/vehicle-to-grid-technology.html
https://www.edfenergy.com/electric-cars/vehicle-grid

https://www.virta.global/vehicle-to-grid-v2g

Edit Added third link

So they want to wear your electric car battery out instead of having a sensible energy mix that is 'sustainable' even in cold weather with no wind and allows for charging of electric vehicles,  at the moment despite the huge number of fans on sticks we have cluttering up our countryside and sea we cannot rely on them for anything,  if we could control the weather we may stand a chance, but we can't and because of pie in the sky politicians we are at the mercy of it - just like in the stone age - but I suppose the clueless politicians see that as progress...

This is what happens when you try to ban the use of fossil fuels but have nothing to replace them.
I want to avoid using fossil fuels and damaging the environment.

Until we get decent stable electricity supply my main concern is the economy not the environment.... people may begin to care less about the environment when we start to get rolling blackouts and the lights and heating pack up.
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

JimSh

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2021, 08:27:25 PM »

I have an idea. Connect all the BEVs to the Grid and they can keep it running on low wing/sun days. (Yes: it is a suggestion made by others!)


At least a couple of energy suppliers pushing V2G




So they want to wear your electric car battery out instead of having a sensible energy mix that is 'sustainable' even in cold weather with no wind and allows for charging of electric vehicles,  at the moment despite the huge number of fans on sticks we have cluttering up our countryside and sea we cannot rely on them for anything,  if we could control the weather we may stand a chance, but we can't and because of pie in the sky politicians we are at the mercy of it - just like in the stone age - but I suppose the clueless politicians see that as progress...

This is what happens when you try to ban the use of fossil fuels but have nothing to replace them.
I want to avoid using fossil fuels and damaging the environment.

Until we get decent stable electricity supply my main concern is the economy not the environment.... people may begin to care less about the environment when we start to get rolling blackouts and the lights and heating pack up.

And what happens when the fossil fuels run out or become so scarce that people are fighting over them and we have nothing to replace them with?
Surely it is more sensible to develop renewables and look for ways to store the energy to even out supply and demand.
The UK is well off for sources of renewables - hydro, wind, wave and tidal (or at least Scotland is). Unfortunately the UK government has squandered most of the fossil fuels.
I would agree that we are as yet unable to run exclusively on renewables without backup and the politicians' ideas to do so are pie in the sky. There is unlikely to be one solution but a combination of many.

John Ratsey

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2021, 09:15:26 PM »
And what happens when the fossil fuels run out or become so scarce that people are fighting over them and we have nothing to replace them with?
Surely it is more sensible to develop renewables and look for ways to store the energy to even out supply and demand.
The UK is well off for sources of renewables - hydro, wind, wave and tidal (or at least Scotland is). Unfortunately the UK government has squandered most of the fossil fuels.
I would agree that we are as yet unable to run exclusively on renewables without backup and the politicians' ideas to do so are pie in the sky. There is unlikely to be one solution but a combination of many.
The fossil fuels won't run out any time soon but people will have to adjust to putting up with a climate significantly different from the recent past. They'll be more worried about the air conditioning for the summer than heating for the winter. At least aircon in the day time is in step with the solar generation.

However, I agree that we need a lot more storage in one form or another. A few more projects such as this https://www.scottishconstructionnow.com/article/scotland-s-largest-hydro-project-approved-by-ministers would have some impact but they need to be subsidised to get them built. I'd put an unreliability tax on the wind and solar energy to create a fund for investing in storage.
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Jocko

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2021, 06:56:00 AM »
Running air conditioning is a first world problem (both in buildings and cars). I was brought up in an age when there was no air conditioning in buildings (I was 21 before we even had a fridge), and central heating was a luxury (as were fitted carpets). If the first world has to revert to a simpler style of living, it may be no bad thing.

JimSh

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2021, 08:54:12 AM »
Running air conditioning is a first world problem (both in buildings and cars). I was brought up in an age when there was no air conditioning in buildings (I was 21 before we even had a fridge), and central heating was a luxury (as were fitted carpets). If the first world has to revert to a simpler style of living, it may be no bad thing.

Seems like you're not that comfy yet
I have a digital thermometer on my desk, and there is an outside temperature probe which I normally dangle on the floor. At the moment it is showing 17.4°C  at desk height and 14.2°C  at floor level.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=4+yorkshiremen&&view=detail&mid=171D5EFB2C61E68A6EC8171D5EFB2C61E68A6EC8&rvsmid=53D4B529149D82E3AA0E53D4B529149D82E3AA0E&FORM=VDRVRV
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 09:18:42 AM by JimSh »

Westy36

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2021, 09:53:45 AM »
Running air conditioning is a first world problem (both in buildings and cars). I was brought up in an age when there was no air conditioning in buildings (I was 21 before we even had a fridge), and central heating was a luxury (as were fitted carpets). If the first world has to revert to a simpler style of living, it may be no bad thing.

I agree with reverting to a more simple style of living.

In our house, if you are cold, put another jumper on! We have central heating, but not a hot house. When I was growing up in the 70's, I remember the central heating being insalled and even then it was only used at christmas time. Tell kids today eh?
 

culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2021, 10:35:41 AM »
I'd put an unreliability tax on the wind and solar energy to create a fund for investing in storage.

Far from wind farms getting taxed for unreliability they often get paid NOT to generate  they are called 'constraint payments' - so on a windy day we have an excess of power from wind turbines the grid asks windfarms to shut down and the companies get paid. Then on a no-wind day ( like the last few days and including today ) we get a paltry 5 or 6% of demand from wind.  Don't ask how many trees have been chopped down to built lucrative wind farms... Greenies moaned about pylons,  now they hug the wind turbines which are much bigger and more intrusive than pylons and tend to be in the most scenic areas...

On a windy day there is massively too much wind on the grid, and far more than the UK can handle, on a still day it is pathetic.

Quote from article linked to below..

'Could companies be targeting constraint payments?

The spokesperson for the REF believes that this practise can provide “a perverse incentive to seek out areas with low demand and weak grid connectivity,” therefore it can encourage more operators to take advantage of constraint payments by constructing more farms in such areas.

Furthermore, REF perceives wind farms as a foreseeable market risk which should not be eligible for financial compensations when they have to be restricted in order to prevent grid overloading.

The company does not see such compensations as justifiable, especially as they provide higher income for a restricted period of time compared to when wind farms are actually working. It also warns that this procedure poses “a recognisable risk of siting a development” in low income areas such as less populated counties in Scotland.

The REF spokesperson concluded that “the effects of this perverse incentive are now being seen in many planning applications for industrial wind developments coming forward”.
[/i]


https://www.power-technology.com/features/constraint-payments-rewarding-wind-farms-for-switching-off/
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 12:22:59 PM by culzean »
Some people will only consider you an expert if they agree with your point of view or advice,  when you give them advice they don't like they consider you an idiot

madasafish

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2021, 12:36:35 PM »
Running air conditioning is a first world problem (both in buildings and cars). I was brought up in an age when there was no air conditioning in buildings (I was 21 before we even had a fridge), and central heating was a luxury (as were fitted carpets). If the first world has to revert to a simpler style of living, it may be no bad thing.

Ever tried working in an office with an outside temperature of 30C in daytime and 20C at night?

The inside temperature is so uncomfortable it is dangerous to health.

Been there in Africa.

It is not a luxury is many US states...it is a necessity.

sparky Paul

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2021, 12:47:19 PM »
On a windy day there is massively too much wind on the grid, and far more than the UK can handle, on a still day it is pathetic.

Which is exactly the reason why we should be building the storage facilities being argued for. For wind, which is intermittent and reasonably unpredictable by nature, you're not just smoothing out the bumps. The answer has to be in open ended conversion technologies such as hydrogen.

Dumping electricity or putting brakes on feathered turbines is a shameful waste.

culzean

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2021, 01:08:53 PM »
It is not a luxury is many US states...it is a necessity.

When we lived in Australia we sometimes went out into the older country towns and were impressed by the older buildings with overhanging roofs to shield the walls from hot sun, vents in the walls and under the eaves,  they were cool inside despite being nearly 40deg C outside.  Now compare them with the glass fronted modern houses and offices that require massive amounts of air conditioning even on a day that is just 'warm'.... ( to cut down on the peaks of power use many tower block commercial buildings used overnight electricity to freeze tanks of water and used the ice during the day cool the buildings ) but they still required a lot of power.   Modern architects have forgotten that buildings in a hot climate require designs that are OK ( well maybe ) in temperate areas....

Modern cars also have much larger more steeply raked windscreen and larger dash area than older cars, which is the main reason aircon is now needed on them.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 02:54:02 PM by culzean »
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Jocko

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2021, 06:21:05 PM »
Ever tried working in an office with an outside temperature of 30C in daytime and 20C at night?

The inside temperature is so uncomfortable it is dangerous to health.

Been there in Africa.

It is not a luxury is many US states...it is a necessity.
Yes I have. I was in the Merchant Navy and some climes 30°C was the night time temperature. Steaming down the Red Sea at 20 knots with a 20 knot following breeze is no picnic. But we are not talking about the rest of the world. We are discussing the energy requirements in the UK. And in my opinion air conditioning in the UK is a luxury, not a necessity.


ss Benattow (Leith) in Dadiangas (General Santos) Philipines.

John Ratsey

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Re: Electricity generation. The pros and the cons.
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2021, 09:40:46 PM »
I've done my fair share of travelling for work including time on both sides of the Red Sea. In summer, without air conditioning, the best place for the bed is outside.

I can't find it now but not long ago I read an article about how futher summer temperatures would make summer sleeping a challenge because UK buildings aren't designed to keep the sun out. I learned long ago that houses with west-facing bedroom windows are best avoided but plenty are still being built as houses are scattered around to suit the whims of the planners and architects without thought about how to maximise the benefit of the winter sun (when it shines) and minimise excess heating from summer sun. The article also pointed out that people living in urban over-glazed flats or converted offices are already suffering from internal summer night temperatures that make sleep challenging. Air conditioning will soon become a necessity for some in order to get a good night's sleep but the right aircon can also serve as a heat pump for some winter warmth.
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